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Posts by Eikadistes

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  • Immutability of Epicurean school in ancient times

    • Eikadistes
    • July 29, 2025 at 2:14 PM

    Here's a fun example, for anyone unaware; this tickled my mind – Lucifer.

    In the beginning, we weren't sure that Venus was one thing, we saw it as (maybe) two, the Morning Star and the Evening Star. In Latin, one of those objects names was "Lucifer." It was literally just the name of a celestial object (Phosphoros in Greek, among a handful of other proper names).

    There are a few ancient Hebrew (i.e. Canaanite) myths that associate the planet Venus with a god who attempted to usurp a supreme god's throne and became an underworld deity. As far as I knew, this isn't reflected in mainstream branches of Judaism; this is a relic of their days as polytheists.

    Nonetheless, Latin Christians sure got a kick out of it, and incorporated that narrative into their mythos. To my knowledge, however, they did not make a association between "Lucifer" and "Satan". Those were two, separate mythical figures for hundreds of years of early Christianity.

    I don't believe this association was popularized until Dante's fiction. Therein, the "Lucifer" we think of as the prideful pretty-boy who fell from heaven and took over a spicy underworld comes from medieval, Italian fiction. It has little to do with the myths of ancient Christianity.

    I like to think of it like high school teachers. English teachers and History teachers both include Julius Caesar in their curriculum. English teachers (often, in my experience) base their understanding of Roman history on Shakespeare. History teachers base it off of Cicero, etc.

    Unless you go to the source, it's some level of fan-fiction.

    (Check me on some of those claims; I'm over-generalizing a bit, I know).

  • Immutability of Epicurean school in ancient times

    • Eikadistes
    • July 29, 2025 at 9:59 AM

    I think that parrhesia has a bit to do with it, too.

    When your school sticks to frank speech, it becomes much more difficult to seduce with metaphor. Otherwise, when you use metaphor as the primary means of instruction (I'm looking at you and your fables, Jesus), then you guarantee that your teachings will be forever misunderstood.

    If Epicurean philosophy weren't doctrinally "conservative" (in the sense of defending the original program), then I believe the Catholic Church would have re-purposed it by now. :P

  • Recorded Statements of Metrodorus

    • Eikadistes
    • July 28, 2025 at 3:04 PM
    Quote from TauPhi

    Hiram Crespo's substack has 5 latest articles dedicated to Metrodorus. I haven't read them yet so I can't say if they are any good but if anyone's interested:

    https://hiramcrespo.substack.com/

    I know that Hiram has access to Les Epicuriens and finds significant resources in there for fragmentary writings from the other founders (Metrodoros in particular).

  • Recorded Statements of Metrodorus

    • Eikadistes
    • July 28, 2025 at 8:03 AM
    1. The works of Metródōros preserved in Herculaneum include:
      P.Herc. 200 (On Divinity)
      P.Herc. 255 (Against Dialecticians) ↩︎
  • Busts of Epicurus

    • Eikadistes
    • July 27, 2025 at 7:28 PM

    That's awesome! Please share how it turns out.

  • Busts of Epicurus

    • Eikadistes
    • July 25, 2025 at 11:30 AM

    I just received this bust from an Etsy seller, Kargar, owner of Selfix3D.


  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Eikadistes
    • July 17, 2025 at 9:25 PM
    Quote from Bryan
    Quote from Eikadistes

    "to which of the implied subject(s)/object(s) do the articles/pronouns refer?"

    I am not seeing a reference to fears

    Yeah, no explicit reference to that word, just the general idea of dismissing death.

    Quote from Bryan

    (Although, of course, τὸ ζῆν is more "living" than "life")

    I'm glad you brought this up because I want your take on it. I read ζῆν as an infinitive, so, even though its awkward, I try to squeeze a "to..." into the sentence ... but it never works, so I add fillers, and I'm never quite satisfied. ^^ I think most translators like reading the [article + infinitive] as a noun ("life")? That seems conceptually fair, but it's still a little bit different. The active participle tends to fit ("-ing"), though I recall seeing that somewhat less. I at least want to see it as a verb for the sake of coherence.

  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Eikadistes
    • July 17, 2025 at 3:58 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    How does this relate to the phrasing of the fragment translated as about spitting on good (or is it beauty?) unless it bring pleasure?

    I'd say ... paraphrasing, it could mean, either: [1] we are to live while embracing the grand inevitability of death, or else, [2] we are to live while spitting upon the universal fear of death.

  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Eikadistes
    • July 17, 2025 at 2:09 PM

    I just wanted to add another brief reflection on the "embracing" versus "spitting" nuance:

    There are a variety of ways in which people seem to interface with death: fearing death, fleeing from death, fighting death, chasing immortality, damning life, welcoming death, accepting death, expressing gratitude for having lived, and plenty of other responses and orientations I'm not picturing. Adding another dimension (perhaps arbitrarily ... just thinking out loud) we can [1] lament life, and fear death, [2] lament life and accept death, [3] prize life but fear death, or [4] prize life and accept death. In Menoikeús, Epíkouros explicitly rejects [1 + 2] lamenting life in any capacity, and he rejects [3] fearing death in the first two Key Doctrines, so, in general (by this measurement), the appropriate Epicurean attitude would be to [4] prize life and accept the inevitable necessity of death.

    I think that concept reinforces what (I believe) I'm seeing, visually. No spitting. :P

  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Eikadistes
    • July 17, 2025 at 11:02 AM

  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Eikadistes
    • July 17, 2025 at 10:47 AM
    Quote from Kalosyni

    VS47. "I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well." (Bailey translation)

    I am wondering if it literally says "spitting contempt on life" or what exactly it said?

    Don  Bryan  Eikadistes

    Great question!

    I found differing renderings from different authors. Bailey seems to be an outlier in his transposition; note the verb προπτύσαντες (proptúsantes) versus προσπτύσαντες (prosptúsantes).

    Screenshot 2025-07-17 at 10.33.27 AM.png

    The first rendering προπτύσαντες (proptúsantes) is (I believe) the aorist active participle of the verb προπτύω (proptúo), meaning something like "having spit out" ... or else, the "-αντες" ending refers to a plural, active participle, meaning "you [all] are spitting out"? (...I wasn't really sure).

    The second rendering προσπτύσαντες (prosptúsantes) is the aorist active participle of the verb προσπτύσσομαι (prosptússomai), meaning "having received", "embraced", or "folded to oneself" ... or else, here again, it might be the plural active participle, meaning "you [all] are embracing".

    Screenshot 2025-07-17 at 10.34.36 AM.png

    ... it looks like the second one to me, with the extra sigma, προσπτύσαντες (prosptúsantes).


    ...ἀλλ᾽ ὅταν ἡμᾶς τὸ χρεὼν ἐξάγῃ
    μέγα προ[σ]πτύσαντες τῷ ζῆν καὶ...


    A directly-transposed translation might be something like (it's clunky, but...) either:


    ...but when, [for] us, a [life full] of necessities recedes,
    [the] great [thing], [subjects] are spitting out, then, to live, and...

    or perhaps:

    ...but when, [for] us, a [life full] of necessities recedes,
    [the] great [thing], [subjects] are embracing, then, to live, and...


    So the question I then struggle with, is to decide "to which of the implied subject(s)/object(s) do the articles/pronouns refer?" Are people vomiting (rejecting?) their natural impulse to live? Or are necessities vomiting (killing?) people from life? Otherwise (I think this is the case based on the screenshots above) people must be embracing the necessary end to living (i.e. accepting death).


    ...but could be totally wrong. 100% amateur here.

  • Preuss - "Epicurean Ethics - Katastematic Hedonism"

    • Eikadistes
    • July 15, 2025 at 3:37 PM

    It knows everything. 8o

    Ask it anything, no matter how absurd.

  • Epicurus' Prolepsis vs Heraclitus' Flux

    • Eikadistes
    • July 15, 2025 at 9:50 AM
    Quote from DistantLaughter

    These are my reflections on the relationship between Epicurean prolepsis and Chomsky’s theory of Universal Grammar

    This is great. Chomsky often comes to mind when I think about prolepsis.

    I'm glad you mentioned it.

  • Preuss - "Epicurean Ethics - Katastematic Hedonism"

    • Eikadistes
    • July 15, 2025 at 9:46 AM
    Quote from Kalosyni

    And here was the ai reply:

    Quote

    "Yes, Google Search's AI algorithms do factor in your past browsing and search history to personalize your search results"

    No doubt.

    This is why everyone in the forum should be aware that your search queries are going to use confirmation bias as a tool to provide you with satisfying (not necessarily true) results.

    Quote from Kalosyni
    Quote

    Here's why:

    • Personalization:

      Google uses your past search history.

      ...

    Good guess, AI, but not true in this case.

    Working in IT for almost 13 years now, I browse anonymously, use a VPN, auto-clear my cache, turned off search history, and removed all personalization related to Google.

    Quote from Kalosyni
    Quote
    • ...location, language settings....

    This is probably it.

    It's another example of AI restricting its presentation based on assumptions it is making about the user in an effort to be helpful. Like any algorithm, it wants to satisfy you with compelling information, not necessary thorough and accurate data. It's just a well-read stranger on the street with a big vocabulary. We have to cross-reference everything it claims.

    We have some experts here. If anyone wants information on Library and Informational Science, Don is your resource, not AI. If you have questions about American jurisprudence, you'll get a more functional, accurate answer from Cassius than AI. When I'm looking for help with language, academic dictionaries are great, but not always as great as Elli who is living and breathing the language everyday, or Bryan who is constantly advancing his study.

    I am concerned about the growing tendency (I observe) to automatically use AI as a resource. I'm seeing my family asking it medical advice instead of their doctor, and people with college degrees asking it to construct paragraphs for them in e-mails, and people going for their Master's degrees getting suspended for allowing AI to write their papers for them. What's going on?

  • Preuss - "Epicurean Ethics - Katastematic Hedonism"

    • Eikadistes
    • July 15, 2025 at 12:45 AM

    Side-note: AI is now citing the interpretations presented in this forum:

  • Epicurus' Prolepsis vs Heraclitus' Flux

    • Eikadistes
    • July 10, 2025 at 12:31 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    I have posed the following question to the latest Grok

    We shouldn't, because...

    Quote from Cassius

    Those who have time and inclination can parse through this response and continue to discuss it's accuracy or inaccuracy.

    We know that it doesn't know, and we already have to evaluate it for falsehood.

    Grok possesses a vast knowledge base, yet a shallow one; it's evaluations are confident, yet hasty; it represents itself with authority, yet has none; it employs technical jargon without proper context; it cannot recognize anachronisms; it blindly accepts published conclusions without self-review; it's capacities to perform analyses are limited to the minds of the developer(s); it's reviewing philosophical propositions like the computer programmers who developed it (I'm surprised it didn't find a way to incorporate politics into the response based on its latest update); even if politics weren't a factor, it would still be limited by the opinions of contemporary academics. Don demonstrated that the "early tenth" refers to the Twentieth, and this is corroborated by the findings of Stephen White (2021) ... but right now, Grok, and Gemini, and Siri are just going to provide you with the inaccurate, scholarly consensus (or Wikipedia): he was born on the 10th (wrong).

    These language models are a bad research assistants.

    Quote from Cassius

    Physicists Aligned with a Heraclitean Flux Perspective...

    This is a great example of the kind of anachronism I mean.

    There isn't a "Heraclitean Flux" model in contemporary physics. You will not find the phrase "Heraclitean Flux" outside of philosophy papers, archaeological journals, or history publications. No physicists right now express their positions on the Standard Model in terms of "Heraclitean Flux". I'm willing to bet that most of them have no idea who Herakleitos was; if they doing, I'm further willing to bet they only know the idiom "...same river twice..." and nothing else.

    Grok neither knows that, nor cares. It's assuming an answer based on our question. I bet if we asked it, "Grok, which modern musicians reflect the realization of the Hegelian zeitgeist?", I bet it would provide a coherent response with sources, even though it's an nonsense question.

    ____________________

    I don't think, for me, comparing ancient physics with modern physics will be helpful to try to improve our understanding of either. Herakleitos, as far as I know, concludes that "fire" is the fundamental substance of reality, and that's a wild idea. If we're trying to make an analogy between the two, we'd have to apologize for the fact that his proposition implies that "fire" is smaller than a hydrogen atom. That's a dead-end to me. I know that Stoics like to argue that "fire" can be interpreted as a very loose metaphor for something like "quantum foam" or "the latent energy of spacetime" ... but I think that's equivocation and apologism for a myth in the first place.

  • Epicurus' Prolepsis vs Heraclitus' Flux

    • Eikadistes
    • July 9, 2025 at 10:45 AM

    This is an interesting division that Diogénēs makes. (Come to think of it) I wonder how reliable of a transmitter he is of Hellenistic philosophy? The Peripatetics ... as far as I know, the "flux" is categorically Heraklitean; the Aristotelians were interested in syllogistic logic, and built a formal body of rational knowledge. Herakleitos was ... sort of a mystic? While his propositions have implications for physics, I see it as contributing more to philosophy of identity, mind, and language.

  • Happy Birthday General Thread

    • Eikadistes
    • July 8, 2025 at 4:01 PM

    Thank you, everyone!

  • Epicurus And The Dylan Thomas Poem - "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night"

    • Eikadistes
    • July 7, 2025 at 10:04 AM
    Quote from Rolf

    I'm a big fan of this poem, but I feel it's acutely anti-Epicurean. "Raging against the dying of the light" brings to mind a bitter and agonising response to dying. Of course an Epicurean would hardly welcome death (beyond very specific scenarios), raging against it doesn't seem to be the most prudent response in any situation.

    Love it, too, and also feel that the tone doesn't quite capture Epicurean thanatology, which triggers a reflection in my mind on Epíkouros resting in a bathtub, declaring "Remember the doctrines!"

    Dylan Thomas had a turbelent life, and his pre-mature end was a bit gruesome. Prior to his death, that struggle shows in his poetry. There's a lot of despair and emotional violence there. I'm not sure how his father died, but it sounds he struggled to accept the necessary end time requires.

  • Mocking Epithets

    • Eikadistes
    • July 6, 2025 at 11:18 AM

    I really enjoyed chewing on these ancient slurs.

    I appreciate that there seems to be a universal preconception for "Hater" or "Haters". ^^

    In particular, I like thinking that Plato is not just "golden", but "gilded", as in, "cheap" and "superficial", like modern currency, or that his dialogues are just gold leaf painted over bad philosophy.

    Good find on Sannídōros! I missed that etymology completely.

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    1. Recorded Statements of Metrodorus 11

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    1. Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources 20

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