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"If anyone thinks that he knows nothing, he cannot be sure that he knows this, when he confesses that he knows nothing at all. I shall avoid disputing with such a trifler, who perverts all things, and like a tumbler with his head prone to the earth, can go no otherwise than backwards." (Lucretius 4:469)

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Posts by Eikadistes

New Graphics: Are You On Team Epicurus? | Comparison Chart: Epicurus vs. Other Philosophies | Chart Of Key Epicurean Quotations | Note to all users: If you have a problem posting in any forum, please message Cassius  

  • Is There A "Paradox of Hedonism"?

    • Eikadistes
    • April 4, 2026 at 11:10 AM
    Quote from LAMAR__44

    I think it makes sense to evaluate before starting a friendship or romantic relationship whether there will be net pleasure or pain, but doing this inside of relationships seems to make them feel shallow and transactional, at least for me.

    This is a solid observation, and Epíkouros addresses those exact points. In a nutshell, the Garden observes all friendships starting with two individuals providing each other with mutual utility. In the beginning, you're totally right. Friendship can be described as being "transactional".

    But I think you already nailed the bigger picture in your thesis, which is that "doing this inside of relationships" lowers the value of the relationship. It really can, and its not acceptable, and Epíkouros provides assurance that we cannot betray our friends out of convenience. I think I can provide a few, practical example of this when it comes to sex, death, and betrayal.

    Quote

    Each friendship [is worthwhile], by virtue of itself, but is taken at first for the sake of advantage. (VS 23)

    I do like the word "transactional" in the beginning. Regardless, though, a huge goal of friendship is beyond the satisfaction of temporary needs is the cultivation of long-term, loving relationships. To obtain the latter, we have to begin with the former, starting with "I scratch your back...". There's a huge difference between helping each other have an orgasm, versus making a family. Both of those things are happening, but the long-lasting, worthwhile motivation is the latter. (I don't necessarily mean having kids ... that's not for everyone and statistics are divided about that choice. I'll leave that to each person to decide if they're ever ready for that experience).

    Quote

    [F]riendship [arises] according to the needs; Nevertheless it will always be beneficial to offer friendship just as [as it is] for us to plant seeds in the earth, thus [friendship] itself cultivates those communities that [work together to] perfect the pleasures. (10.120)

    The otherwise transactional nature of relationships develops into something more valuable. In this regard, practicing vulnerability and forgiveness and holding dialogue to resolve issues is key.

    But, you're right, we should do our best to practice choice and avoidance with new personalities. It would be absurd to invite someone hostile into a safe space, and wreck your peace.

    Quote

    Neither should we accept the overeager for friendship, nor the reluctant... (VS28)

    Hopefully, we can maintain friendly discourse with as many people as possible who are neither hostile to our interests, nor eager to take advantage of our kindness. Still, we are encouraged to distinguish one from the other, which is tricky, and requires trial-and-error:

    Quote

    The one who exudes no confidence from the outside is best to bring together a fellowship of friends and consequently befriends the most possible members of one’s own kind; and when impossible at least do not vilify as not of one’s own species; and so long as that was not possible, avoiding contact with them was possible, expelling them from thought so long as the latter of these practices proves to be useful. (Key Doctrine 39)

    Though, to speak to your initial concern, I think that we have to practice vulnerability for the greatest gift of friendship, even if vulnerability means that we occasionally get our hearts broken, or get betrayed. The immortal good of friendship is worth taking a reasonable risk.

    Quote

    ...but still one must take risks for the sake of friendship. (VS28)

    Indeed, the wise person will "never abandon a friend" (10.120). The end result of cultivating friendship is so meaningful, so blessed, that it justifies taking personal risks for its sake. Since our love of friends survives death, trying to make friends is always worthwhile.

    Quote

    ...in defense of loved ones will at some time be ready to die (10.120)

    This is the big one that reassures me that the Epicurean approach to ethics disqualifies gross selfishness and manipulation for the sake of strictly personal gain:

    We enjoy no pleasure in being dead. There is no future satisfaction in a dead-state that can motivate an Epicurean to die. A person might be tempted to lie, cheat, or steal for an object, money, or power, but there can no, personal motivation for being dead, because nothing can be acquired that would motivate someone to act. There can only be motivation for dying if it directly saves a loved one. Even if dying is awful, and even if the only pleasure received is just a fleeting hope that they'll survive, it's still worth it. The pleasure for which we strive in that moment is the shared pleasure of another who will carry the torch of your friendship after you are gone.

    Granted, there's simultaneously personal avoidance of being emotionally wrecked. The person who betrays a friend condemns themself to permanent misery. Dying prevents this.

    But it also prevents everything else (besides the survivors), so unless death means "paradise", we're not exchanging mutual utility with a friend. What we are doing, in those last moments, is giving them everything we've got, without the expectation that we will ever receive anything ever again. There's nothing lesser about this, and Epíkouros firmly approves of this choice.

    Just to quickly address two of your other comments:

    Quote
    Quote from LAMAR__44

    ... they only have value in so that they’re instrumental to my pleasure,

    Not with regards to choosing to die for a friend, but that's also a rare situation, so I don't mean to over-use that example. Consider this: you are so loved by another person, that you have become instrumental to their own complete happiness. In that regard, we gain pleasure from knowing that we give pleasure to others ("...better to give than receive", so they say). While it's still self-motivated, I am comfortable describing it as a higher purpose.

    Quote from LAMAR__44

    in doing this, I lower my experience of pleasure within these relationships.

    I wouldn't say "lower" at all, unless you're straight-up objectifying a friend.

    Sex is a good example, here. When it's good, both people are providing each other with the same satisfaction. When it's really good, it's that first condition, plus deep love, or the immortal good of friendship, or emotional security from that gift. When it's bad, one person is gaining more satisfaction from the other. When it's really bad, both people are using each other and not even trying to cultivate what could become a beautiful friendship. When it's brutal, one person is explicitly harming the other for their fleeting pleasure.

    We definitely lower our experience of pleasure if we treat people like objects. But so long as we see them as fellow subjects, then our mutual transaction becomes something that is infinitely (literally, infinitely, because it survives the death of your friend) more valuable.

    This is important, though, because people do change, and sometimes for the worst. No matter how much you love your partner, and no matter how much you've each sacrificed for the other, and no matter how many hours you've spent in couples therapy, any relationship that features domestic abuse has to stop. The health of the subject is more important than their relationship with someone who has become hostile, or has become violent.

    Granted, if it's good in the first place, I doubt it will devolve into domestic abuse.

    Still, anything's possible. Life is complicated, and families and relationships are everything, everything good, and everything bad. When things get bad, really bad, irrevocably bad, it's important to preserve one's own peace and leave a bad situation. Divorce is important. Without getting disrespectful or too graphic, we had a situation in our extended family where severe, very severe abuse happened from someone who needed to be jailed. Here, the Epicurean insistence of keeping yourself healthy is really, really important. (As it turns out, again, sorry to my family for even bringing it up, but it was religion that kept it going).

    But if you've cultivated true love, it's a moot point. Sometimes you gain pleasure from not obtaining things for yourself, but giving them to others. Maybe someday, we'll die to give someone else a future, knowing that we are surrendering every happy thing that we could ever hope to experience again. A Tale of Two Cities comes to mind.

    Display More
  • Epicurus vs Kant and Modern Idealism - Introduction

    • Eikadistes
    • April 2, 2026 at 10:52 PM

    In his introduction to Critique of Pure Reason, Kant writes:

    Quote

    “The light dove, cleaving the air of her free flight, and fleeing its resistance, might imagine that its flight would be still easier in empty space. It was thus that Plato left the world of the senses, as setting too narrow limits to understanding, and ventured out beyond it on the wings of the ideas, in the empty space of the pure understanding.”

    I think he agreed that the world of senses, by itself, is "too narrow", but at the same time, Kant heavily criticizes Plátōn for the same reasons that he criticizes the pure rationalism of Descartes. This is important, because as far as "Idealism" goes, Kant is distinguished.

    ... well, honestly, they're all unique, but, by comparison, Kant is especially analytical.

    There are a number of types of Idealisms, and they are each a little different. Plátōn's "Idealism" sometimes reminds me of Descartes (who is not, so far as I know, considered an "idealist" by historians of philosophy) in that both thinkers privileged the substance of mind, but neither concluded that the observable world is literally composed of mind. Typically, we use the word "dualist" with Descartes, and use the word "idealist" with Plátōn, however, some scholars consider Plátōn to be a "Realist", in that his Worlds of Forms does objectively exist, and a world of gross matter is actually trapping our immortal souls in a tricky cage of flesh.

    By contrast, the monistic Idealism of Advaita Vedanta, and of George Berkeley (e.g. "If a tree falls in a forest...") suggests that the stuff of existence is literally composed of mind. Both traditions entertained the idea that we are but ideas in the mind of God. Plátōn would have disagreed with this kind of "Idealism", as did Kant. Something else is real besides just thinking.

    Kant's "Idealism" (if that's what we want to call it, and I'm not sure if we do) is significantly more analytical than his German peers, each of whom were much, much more influenced by the recently-translated (at the time) copies of the ancient Indian Upanishads and Gita, which heavily support a form of monistic Idealism that bleeds into 18th-century German philosophy (e.g. we're just bubbles in an ocean of consciousness and life is but a dream). Kant doesn't suggest anything (so far as I know) like this, and only his peers embrace a mystical kind of Idealism. Even the American Transcendentalists, entranced by Nature privileged (as Emerson wrote) an "invisible eye". This kind of "bubbles-in-an-ocean-of-consciousness" neither accurately describes Plátōn nor Kant.

    Quote from Martin

    The rejection of both plain rationalism and plain empiricism is an overlap between Epicurus and Kant.

    I think this is the main thing. Both philosophers demand an 'observe-and-consider' approach to understanding reality. While I personally think that Kant's inclusion of "noumena" might qualify him as a kind of Idealist, that's just historical taxonomy. I'm comfortable being wrong on that point. If "Idealism" means "everything is mind", then neither Plátōn nor Kant are Idealists. (I see them both as Idealists, but, again, I think it's just historical taxonomy to an extent).

    Outside of this historical significance though, Epíkouros and Kant would argue. Kant wouldn't steal a loaf of bread for a starving child. Epíkouros would have died rather than betray a loved one. They fundamentally disagreed on the question of the divisibility of space, and I think you'd have a tough time convincing Epíkouros that a "thing-it-itself" is any thing at all. Still, Kant is a unique enough thinker that we'll find some parallels and some points of tension with anyone.

  • Revisiting Issues of The Use of AI in Epicurean Philosophy

    • Eikadistes
    • April 2, 2026 at 6:19 PM

    This discussion brings a few quotes to mind that provide some nuance.

    We're certainly cautioned against explicit proselytization as a matter of practicality:

    - "Never did I reach to please the masses, for truly what pleases them, I did not understand, but what I understood was far away from their perception." (Usener fragment 187)

    And any actions fueled by the motivation of personal advancement are risky:

    - "They will not make flowery speeches [...] They will make plans to gain public approval only so far as to avoid being treated with contempt [...] They will establish a school, but not in order to lead a mob; and they will gain notoriety in public, but not enthusiastically." (Laértios 10.120)

    Loukianós provides some nuance in terms of an Epicurean's first intention in discourse:

    - "My object, dear friend, in" writing the book Alexander the False Prophet "has been twofold. [1] First, I was willing to oblige a friend and comrade who is for me the pattern of wisdom, sincerity, good humour, justice, tranquillity, and geniality."

    Epíkouros says the same thing in his Epistle to Herodótos, in terms of a personalized outline:

    - "[For] you, oh, Hēródotos, these summaries have been epitomized on account of the whole of the nature [that] exists." (10.82).

    It seems that, first and foremost, we're trying to help our immediate friends. Yet that's now all those two authors say. Loukianós adds this in Alexander the False Prophet:

    - "[2] But secondly I was still more concerned [...] to strike a blow for Epicurus [...] I think casual readers too may find my essay not unserviceable, since it is not only destructive but, for men of sense, constructive also." (61)

    Epíkouros also explains to Herodótos that the "memory of doctrines" are also intended "so that for each of the [critical] times [students] are able to help themselves in the most important [matters]" (10.35), so there is a dual purpose. The voice is intended for one reader (Epíkouros changes his tone in each letter for comprehension), but the concepts are meant for us all.

    So "striking a blow for Epicurus" is contrasted against helping a single friend. Here, we have a much more cosmopolitan attitude that, as far as I understand, is championed by Diogénēs:

    - The man of Oìnóanda writes that in "I wanted at this moment to help men of sense [...] I would do all in my power [...] to give them the best advice. But since, as I have asserted, the great majority are all in common [...] and their numbers are growing even bigger [...] and since it is right that I should help also those who will come after me [...] as well as being a kindly act to give assistance to the strangers living amongst us; since then the assistance from my work concerns a greater number I wished by making use of this colonnade to set forth in public the remedies which bring salvation" (The Stone Inscription, frag. 2; trans. Chilton)

    Here, his words express to me a kind of social altruism or civic philanthropy, especially with regard to providing "assistance to the strangers living amongst us." This proposition of empathy toward strangers sounds ... downright Judeo-Christians? (Lev. 19:33-34 Ex. 23:9, Detu. 10:18-19, 27:19, Matt. 25) ... well, at least those verses. I can't defend the entire chronicle.

    Along these lines, Lucretius also writes, first and foremost, to his friend Memmius, with a secondary intention of writing a masterpiece for the ages, foreigners and strangers, alike:

    - "... this doctrine seems generally somewhat bitter to those by whom it has not been handled [... so I] have resolved to set forth to you our doctrine in sweet-toned Pierian verse and overlay it as it were with the pleasant honey of the muses" (Book 1.943-947).

    Considering all of this, I'm not sure exactly where I fit in terms of my personal motivations to spread the word. On one hand, I bring up our tradition in casual conversations with friends to help explain concepts. In terms of inviting them to Eikas (etc.) ... I sort of leave an open invitation, but I also don't remind everyone, and I want to make sure I'm not pressuring anyone. I hate it when anyone does that to me, so I want to avoid making anyone feel like I'm trying to make a sale or convert them.

    In the meantime, I'm going to leave cryptic message in public places and pique curiosity. :P

  • Revisiting Issues of The Use of AI in Epicurean Philosophy

    • Eikadistes
    • April 1, 2026 at 11:29 AM

    I deleted my LinkedIn account a few weeks ago.

    (Quick side-note, AI killed my industry a few month ago, so I'm trying to get into technical writing).

    The last activity I registered on LinkedIn was a comment thread about the ethics of using AI in self-published authors' works. The comment section was active, mostly with (per their profiles) employed professionals who made livings producing all kinds of literature. The author published the post as a question: "What % of your book can ethically be written by AI?"

    My response of "0%" was met with unanimous hostility.

    ... specifics aside, they're all professionals, and none of them expressed commitment to functionally writing all of their own, well, writings. Each one of them was defending the position that an author's job boils down to, "One, solid thesis statement. THAT'S the real brilliance." Seriously, the thing they thought made them "skilled writers" was their capacity to write a solid thesis statement, not brainstorming, not research, not education, not outlining, not production, not editing, the editing, the editing, the editing, the editing, the endless editing that can fall to infinity.

    Regardless of whether or not a ghost writer is made of silicon, the ghost writer is the real writer of a piece of literature, not the superficial name attached to the cover. That goes for everything.

    They're not putting the same effort into their professional tasks that you two, Cassius and Don are here, as is also Bryan and Joshuaand many, many others on this forum who dedicate extensive study to a pursuit (and doing so without a financial incentive).

    It's frustrating, and I have a lot of criticism about it ... but, as of now, it's also the case. I think I have to let go of the hot ball of spite I've been clutching, because I can't stop this. We can't put the lid back on this box. We'll just have to deal with it, and, if recent experience is any indicator, we're going to go through a period where ... let's just say I'm really hoping that our species won't split, and everyone connected to AI will become Eloi and the rest of us will become Morlocks.

    I've seen great uses of AI, and I've seen abominable uses for it. I think we're all still working all of this out. Every new tool throughout human society has always been disruptive. It always allows new people make new fortunes while threatening the stability of those who have already prospered. It eliminates old lifestyles and presents new options. We'll each have to figure out what to do with it, and, eventually, we'll collectively form opinions about the desirability of it to continue.

    In the meantime, I'm no longer using spellcheck. :P

  • Use Of The Term "Metaphysics" In Discussing Epicurus

    • Eikadistes
    • March 31, 2026 at 12:13 AM

    It's slippery, and I avoid using it altogether.

    I've heard pretentious scientists use "metaphysics" as a slur to belittle the discipline of philosophy, and I've heard academics use "metaphysics" as a badge of honor to belittle physical science. Barnes & Noble uses the word to advertise something closer to "magic" or "alchemy".

    Within an Epicurean context, the idea of anything "after-physics" seems unhelpful. After all, the Garden "supposes the study of nature provides the proper space for the voices of the facts."

  • Welcome Page259!

    • Eikadistes
    • March 29, 2026 at 10:12 PM

    Thanks, I've got it covered.


  • Welcome Page259!

    • Eikadistes
    • March 29, 2026 at 6:08 PM

    ... weirdly, I am missing page 259 in my copy of Obbink's translation of On Piety, which includes an English translation of column(s) 77A/77B, and after scouring the web, was lead here...

  • New "TWENTIERS" Website

    • Eikadistes
    • March 28, 2026 at 4:57 AM
    Quote from Don
    Quote from Eikadistes

    To the Comrades by Philódēmos

    What made you decide on "Comrades"? My understanding is that there is no noun in the title, just ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΥΣ...

    As far as I know, you are correct. I went with the suggestion from Giuseppe Casanova (1806) who sketched it. He suggests the word ἐταίρους (étaírous) or “Comrades”. From this, I see other authors (who like re-naming everything in Latin) using “contubernales” (meaning “tent-mates” or “comrades”), which is suggested by Anna Angeli (1988). I also see a note which I believe indicates that Francesco Sbordone (1947) translated the name as “Adversus [sophistas]” meaning “Against Sophists”.

    My personal preference is "For the Homies", but I can't academically justify it. :P

  • Travel Video - Ancient Acropolis and Agora

    • Eikadistes
    • March 27, 2026 at 6:12 PM

    That was nice to watch. Thanks!

  • New "TWENTIERS" Website

    • Eikadistes
    • March 27, 2026 at 8:49 AM

    There's a link to the full transcription of P.Herc. 1005 in the annotations of that page.

  • New "TWENTIERS" Website

    • Eikadistes
    • March 26, 2026 at 8:16 PM

    I took a swing at To the Comrades by Philódēmos (P.Herc. 1005). Don did a great job here, and besides our attempts, I'm not familiar with any publications that contain the bulk in English. I'll continue polishing my attempt at a translation for what it's worth as I continue learning.

  • P.Herc. 1005 from Les Epicuriens (A First Draft Translation)

    • Eikadistes
    • March 26, 2026 at 8:13 PM

    I just re-visted this and found some additions!

    Nothing major, but I notice there's a fun reference to the "half-gods" or "demi-gods" (Fragment 96) and a few allusions to Leonteús throughout. Several times, as well, I notice the thrice-repeated phrase "falls from infinity" or "falls into infinity" with regard to vain ideas found in the extant works.

    I was also reflecting (super niche, here...) that the name Dēmētría means "of Demeter" and for a modern analogue, we'd need a feminine name that is phonologically similar to "Earth". I don't recall classical culture providing us with an example, but, here again, a game series I mention in a previous post comes to the rescue by providing us with a female demi-goddess of the Earth named "Aerith". So, for any fans out there, to you, I say, "Aerith is the correct, modern equivalent to Dēmētría".

  • So You Want To Learn Ancient Greek Or Latin?

    • Eikadistes
    • March 19, 2026 at 9:50 AM

    Bonus Fact! Légō can mean "picking out stones for building".

  • So You Want To Learn Ancient Greek Or Latin?

    • Eikadistes
    • March 19, 2026 at 9:48 AM

    I don't know who needs to know this, but:

    Leía means "booty" in ancient Greek.

    May the Force be with you.

  • Seikilos Poem - Discussion

    • Eikadistes
    • March 18, 2026 at 12:28 PM

    And not like anyone asked but I'd be remiss if I didn't take a swing at my own translation:

    While you live, glow!
    Suffer you never a sorrow!
    For fleeting it is to withstand
    the ending that time must demand.

  • Seikilos Poem - Discussion

    • Eikadistes
    • March 18, 2026 at 12:27 PM

    And for the sake of a visual aid, here's this.

    Usually, scholars rearrange the original lines to reinforce the rhyme scheme to students (AABB). Rarely is the lyrical poem analyzed according to the line breaks the poet originally chose.

  • Seikilos Poem - Discussion

    • Eikadistes
    • March 18, 2026 at 12:22 PM

    Just to re-iterate what I posted with the picture, I'm re-posting the text.

    In a nutshell, my thesis is that most scholars (at least whom I've read in English) have overlooked two mid-word line breaks in the original inscription that I believe were intentional, and add a dual connotation to the final two stanzas, notably, that "time" simultaneously means "disease".

    Quote

    I just found something really interesting that I wanted to bring up! I include the following in footnotes here. In a nutshell, I find that it is reasonable to suppose that (1) Seikílos was a seasoned composer, and (2) He was a proper Epicurean.

    (...keeping in mind that Seikílos not only composed lyrical poetry, but also wrote instrumental notation...)

    On the original stele, there are only two words that Seikílos breaks. He visually chooses to squeeze extra letters in some lines, and not in others. Given that it only happens twice, it seems intentional. He doesn't have to. The thing I notice specifically happens on lines 8-9 with the word "olígon" and on lines 10-11 with the word "khrónos".

    Here's what I find:

    (1) If you split "olígon esti" (or "few is") into "oli- \ -gon e...", then you introduce the word "gone" which means "offspring", "child", "fruit", "product". So Seikílos milks two notions out of one word ("smallness" and "new life"), just by employing the poetic feature of introducing a line break in the middle of a word.

    (2) He does the same thing two lines later with a clever connotation. If you split "khrónos" and separate "-nos" then you create an allusion to "nósos" meaning "sickness", "disease", and "plague", creating the exact opposite image. In the context, it creates a poetic link between "time" and the inevitability of "illness".

    Given that the first two lines use imperative, second-person verbs (creating a tone that's a little more like "YOU! GO SHINE!" and "YOU! SUFFER NOTHING!"), there is a sense of urgency that lines 3 and 4 of the couplets need to demonstrate to support the first two lines. So, as I think I have found in the poetry, I believe that Seikílos (to native, ancient Greek ears) was demonstrating this urgency by cleverly invoking both the imagery of sick and dying children and the image of rotten fruit, as though a life spent without "shining" is like diseased produce.

    All of this fits beautifully with Epicurean fragments.

    Display More
  • Seikilos Poem - Discussion

    • Eikadistes
    • March 18, 2026 at 12:20 PM
    Quote from TauPhi

    This is cool. I didn't know about its existence.

    That's a great stanza, and awesomely similar to the epitaph, very cool!

    You know, I first came across it when I took a Humanities class 20 years ago, and the Greek transcription became my first tattoo a few years later, many years before I took up a study of Epicurean Philosophy. I'm jazzed, decades later to learn about the shared influences.

  • Welcome Ludenbergcastle

    • Eikadistes
    • March 9, 2026 at 8:59 AM

    Welcome!

  • Welcome Cornelius Peripateticus! (A name we'll consider genericly rather than as being a dedicated Aristotelian!)

    • Eikadistes
    • March 4, 2026 at 11:43 AM
    Quote from Cornelius Peripateticus

    Puttana

    NICE! Duolingo hasn't covered that one, yet. ^^

    You're definitely in the right place an an Epicurean enthusiast. Welcome to the forum!

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