Posts by Cassius

I checked my old "Comparison Chart With the Stoics" to see what I collected years ago on Stoics and the Gods, and unfortunately I see no Marcus Aurelius. This is what I did collect:

Epictetus - Enchiridion: 31. Be assured that the essential property of piety towards the gods is to form right opinions concerning them, as existing and as governing the universe with goodness and justice. And fix yourself in this resolution, to obey them, and yield to them, and willingly follow them in all events, as produced by the most perfect understanding. For thus you will never find fault with the gods, nor accuse them as neglecting you. And it is not possible for this to be effected any other way than by withdrawing yourself from things not in our own control, and placing good or evil in those only which are. For if you suppose any of the things not in our own control to be either good or evil, when you are disappointed of what you wish, or incur what you would avoid, you must necessarily find fault with and blame the authors. For every animal is naturally formed to fly and abhor things that appear hurtful, and the causes of them; and to pursue and admire those which appear beneficial, and the causes of them. It is impractical, then, that one who supposes himself to be hurt should be happy about the person who, he thinks, hurts him, just as it is impossible to be happy about the hurt itself. Hence, also, a father is reviled by a son, when he does not impart to him the things which he takes to be good; and the supposing empire to be a good made Polynices and Eteocles mutually enemies. On this account the husbandman, the sailor, the merchant, on this account those who lose wives and children, revile the gods. For where interest is, there too is piety placed. So that, whoever is careful to regulate his desires and aversions as he ought, is, by the very same means, carefulof piety likewise. But it is also incumbent on everyone to offer libations and sacrifices and first fruits, conformably to the customs of his country, with purity, and not in a slovenly manner, nor negligently, nor sparingly, nor beyond his ability. 32. When you have recourse to divination, remember that you know not what the event will be, and you come to learn it of the diviner; but of what nature it is you know before you come, at least if you are a philosopher. For if it is among the things not in our own control, it can by no means be either good or evil. Don't, therefore, bring either desire or aversion with you to the diviner (else you will approach him trembling), but first acquire a distinct knowledge that every event is indifferent and nothing to you., of whatever sort it may be, for it will be in your power to make a right use of it, and this no one can hinder;then come with confidence to the gods, as your counselors, and afterwards, when any counsel is given you, remember what counselors you have assumed, and whose advice you will neglect if you disobey. Come to divination, as Socrates prescribed, in cases of which the whole consideration relates to the event, and in which no opportunities are afforded by reason, or any other art, to discover the thing proposed to be learned. When, therefore, it is our duty to share the danger of a friend or of our country, we ought not to consult the oracle whether we will share it with them or not. For, though the diviner should forewarn you that the victims are unfavorable, this means no more than that either death or mutilation or exile is portended. But we have reason within us, and it directs, even with these hazards, to the greater diviner, the Pythian god, who cast out of the temple the person who gave no assistance to his friend while another was murdering him.

Epictetus, Enchiridion: 2. Upon all occasions we ought to have these maxims ready at hand:

"Conduct me, Jove, and you, 0 Destiny, Wherever your decrees have fixed my station." Cleanthes

"I follow cheerfully; and, did I not, Wicked and wretched, I must follow still Whoever yields properly to Fate, is deemed Wise among men, and knows the laws of heaven." Euripides, Frag. 965

And this third: "O Crito, if it thus pleases the gods, thus let it be. Anytus and Melitus may kill me indeed, but hurt me they cannot." Plato's Crito and Apology

Diogenes Laertius, Life of Zeno: 88. And this is why the end may be defined as life in accordance with nature, or, in other words, in accordance with our own human nature as well as that of the universe, a life in which we refrain from every action forbidden by the law common to all things, that is to say, the right reason which pervades all things, and is identical with this Zeus, lord and ruler of all that is.

Diogenes Laertius, Life of Zeno: The good, it is added, are also worshippers of God; for they have acquaintance with the rites of the gods, and piety is the knowledge of how to serve the gods. Further, they will sacrifice to the gods and they keep themselves pure; for they avoid all acts that are offences against the gods, and the gods think highly of them: for they are holy and just in what concerns the gods. The wise too are the only priests; for they have made sacrifices their study, as also the building of temples, purifications, and all the other matters appertaining to the gods.

Diogenes Laertius, Life of Zeno: And the wise man, they say, will offer prayers, and ask for good things from the gods: so Posidonius in the first book of his treatise On Duties, and Hecato in his third book On Paradoxes.

Diogenes Laertius, Life of Zeno: The deity, say they, is a living being, immortal, rational, perfect or intelligent in happiness, admitting nothing evil, taking providential care of the world and all that therein is, but he is not of human shape. He is, however, the artificer of the universe and, as it were, the father of all, both in general and in that particular part of him which is all-pervading, and which is called many names according to its various powers. They give the name Dia (Δία) because all things are due to (διά) him; Zeus (Ζῆνα) in so far as he is the cause of life (ζῆν) or pervades all life; the name Athena is given, because the ruling part of the divinity extends to the aether; the name Hera marks its extension to the air; he is called Hephaestus since it spreads to the creative fire; Poseidon, since it stretches to the sea; Demeter, since it reaches to the earth. Similarly men have given the deity his other titles, fastening, as best they can, on some one or other of his peculiar attributes.

I've set up a list of key citations relating to Canonics for easy access when we set the stage for Velleius' discussion of prolepsis. Not that they really answer any questions with certainty, but I think we if keep them in mind when we discuss what Velleius IS asserting we can eliminate a lot of confusion about what he is NOT asserting.

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Now back to researching on Marcus Aurelius on gods/fate/divination. All contributions appreciated.

You're making some good points Kalosyni and i hope you will elaborate on them because I gather you have some Buddhist background and there are good questions here to dig into.

I glanced at the writer's other blog entries and I gather he is more of a computer person than a philosohy commentator, so it would be good to give as much constructive feedback as possible. There are numbers of flags in the article well worth commenting on.

There are two "tangents" I'd like to take in this Episode 233 before we get very far into Velleius:

(1) First, I'd like to supplement last week's episode attacking the Stoics by covering some choice quotations from Marcus Aurelius about the gods. Modern Stoics might be tempted to say "You only criticized Zeno and Chryssipus and Cleanthes - I don't care about them - I want to live like a ROMAN EMPEROR." We need some quotes from him to show that the same criticisms apply. Suggestions for quotes from Marcus Aurelius as to Gods, Fate, or Divination would be most appreciated!

(2) Then, before we get into what Velleius says about Propelpsis, let's review the text references to the Canonical Faculties and the ground rules that we would expect to apply to anything that Velleius has to say about how we reason about the gods. Let's recap the general positions about all sensations are true, multiple possibilities, waiting, PDs 23-25, etc. I will post some general notes on those.

Welcome to Episode 234 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com.

For our new listeners, let me remind you of several ground rules for both our podcast and our forum.

First: Our aim is to bring you an accurate presentation of classical Epicurean philosophy as the ancient Epicureans understood it.

Second: We won't be talking about modern political issues in this podcast. How you apply Epicurus in your own life is of course entirely up to you. We call this approach "Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean." Epicurean philosophy is a philosophy of its own, it's not the same as Stoicism, Humanism, Buddhism, Taoism, Atheism, Libertarianism or Marxism - it is unique and must be understood on its own, not in terms of any conventional modern morality.

Third: One of the most important things to keep in mind is that the Epicureans often used words very differently than we do today. To the Epicureans, Gods were not omnipotent or omniscient, so Epicurean references to "Gods" do not mean at all the same thing as in major religions today. In the Epicurean theory of knowledge, all sensations are true, but that does not mean all opinions are true, but that the raw data reported by the senses is reported without the injection of opinion, as the opinion-making process takes place in the mind, where it is subject to mistakes, rather than in the senses. In Epicurean ethics, "Pleasure" refers not ONLY to sensory stimulation, but also to every experience of life which is not felt to be painful. The classical texts show that Epicurus was not focused on luxury, like some people say, but neither did he teach minimalism, as other people say. Epicurus taught that all experiences of life fall under one of two feelings - pleasure and pain - and those feelings -- and not gods, idealism, or virtue - are the guides that Nature gave us by which to live. More than anything else, Epicurus taught that the universe is not supernatural in any way, and that means there's no life after death, and any happiness we'll ever have comes in THIS life, which is why it is so important not to waste time in confusion.

Today we are continuing to review the Epicurean sections of Cicero's "On the Nature of The Gods," as presented by the Epicurean spokesman Velleius, beginning at the end of Section 10.

For the main text we are using primarily the Yonge translation, available here at Archive.org. The text which we include in these posts is available here. We will also refer to the public domain version of the Loeb series, which contains both Latin and English, as translated by H. Rackham.

Additional versions can be found here:

• Frances Brooks 1896 translation at Online Library of Liberty
• Lacus Curtius Edition (Rackham)
• PDF Of Loeb Edition at Archive.org by Rackham
• Gutenberg.org version by CD Yonge 

A list of arguments presented will be maintained here.

Today's Text

XVI. Thus far have I been rather exposing the dreams of dotards than giving the opinions of philosophers. Not much more absurd than these are the fables of the poets, who owe all their power of doing harm to the sweetness of their language; who have represented the Gods as enraged with anger and inflamed with lust; who have brought before our eyes their wars, battles, combats, wounds; their hatreds, dissensions, discords, births, deaths, complaints, and lamentations; their indulgences in all kinds of intemperance; their adulteries; their chains; their amours with mortals, and mortals begotten by immortals. To these idle and ridiculous flights of the poets we may add the prodigious stories invented by the Magi, and by the Egyptians also, which were of the same nature, together with the extravagant notions of the multitude at all times, who, from total ignorance of the truth, are always fluctuating in uncertainty.

Now, whoever reflects on the rashness and absurdity of these tenets must inevitably entertain the highest respect and veneration for Epicurus, and perhaps even rank him in the number of those beings who are the subject of this dispute; for he alone first founded the idea of the existence of the Gods on the impression which nature herself hath made on the minds of all men. For what nation, what people are there, who have not, without any learning, a natural idea, or prenotion, of a Deity? Epicurus calls this πρόληψις; that is, an antecedent conception of the fact in the mind, without which nothing can be understood, inquired after, or discoursed on; the force and advantage of which reasoning we receive from that celestial volume of Epicurus concerning the Rule and Judgment of Things.

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Episode 233 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week Velleius Attacks The False God Of Stoicism.

Here's a new and good article referencing the benefits of Emily Austin's "Living For Pleasure." The writer goes through his background first through fundamentalist religion, and then to Buddhism, and having drunk so heavily from those waters it's not surprising that there are a couple of statements that probably need a little tweaking from a strictly Epicurean point of view.

One, for example, is where he says "From Epicurus I learned that eternal life, as well as being impossible, is also undesirable." Well I am not so sure that's stated precisely right. Of course as a human being, it's undesirable for us to obsess over yearning for eternal life, because it's impossible for us to get, and I feel sure that's what he means. But Epicurus was a big picture thinker, and he didn't think that eternal life is undesirable for the gods, so I would draw a line between saying flatly that something is "undesirable per se" as against "undesirable because it's impossible for us." Someone who's new to the philosophy might think it weird that we shouldn't even wish to live forever if we could attain it, and so I wouldn't imply that Epicurus thought the gods don't get a benefit from living forever. The problem in a desire for humans that leads to more pain than pleasure -- is that it leads to more pain than pleasure -- and not that the desire is undesirable per se because it's "wrong" or violates some absolute rule.

But my tweaks to the article would be relatively few. It's very good article, and it brings to mind many of the issues we regularly discuss. All of us incorporate a lot of scars and tendencies from our pasts that take time to work through and articulate. This is a good article to show how much progress someone can make with just a little good influence from a single book. Sounds like he just read Dr. Austin's book recently, and even in short time the distance he's already come from shows how much good her book can do.

Letting Go of the Need to Live Forever

I grew up in rural England singing, very sweetly, Christian hymns in primary school. It was a carefree childhood filled with happiness…

medium.com

OK I just expanded my knowledge of CSS, and the Eyeball icon on the "Default Style Without Welcome Box" is now gone, so no more confusion about that.

Thank you! The theme developer tells me he is working on an update to the Inspire theme that will have a native dark mode, so as soon as that's released we'll get it installed and update all the Inspire variations to allow them in either dark or light.

Ah - also you pointed out to me that "the light-dark toggle doesn't do anything." very good point I had not noticed that aspect. That "Eye" icon is not really a light-dark toggle, but rather a toggle that, when used with the full Inspire theme with Welcome Box, toggles the Welcome box from a "Welcome" message over to a User Control Panel that shows a series of data points about the Users posts. When the Welcome box is turned off, that toggle then doesn't do anything.

I am going to go over right now and cajole the developer to see if he will turn that Eyeball into a light-dark toggle in the next theme update. I'll have to practice how to say "Danke" or "Danke shein(?)" cause he's German too.

Quote from Julia

However, it never bothered me, because I enter the forums through a bookmark directly to https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/notification-list/ so that I can see what I've missed and take things from there.

Yes, I think we want to encourage people to bookmark either the notification list (lists the updates in short form) or the "Recent Activities" page (gives a brief summary of the update) or the Dashboard (pretty much the same as "Recent Activities, but gives a selection of latest graphics etc from other areas of the forum.

The "Home" Page will not change much over time, and so it doesn't make sense for regular users to start on that one. However it's the place that new people googling will find first, so it makes sense to have the Welcome video and other sample material there.

I am sure at some point we'll also move the bulk of the long essay on Pleasure to a separate page, but it's a recent addition, and it's targeted to address the number one issue that distinguishes "some Epicureans" from "other Epicureans." I think it's important for people to realize that up front, so for the time being we'll try it out and see what happens.

I really expect the welcome video (and associated Welcome page) added this past weekend will constitute what most people will check out first. [ Underneath the video it says Click here for Self-Paced Slides of the above presentation, or here for the Welcome Page with the text of the narration. ]

No doubt we'll continue to tweak that front page a lot, but regular users definitely should bookmark one of the other pages as the best way to check in on the forum.

That was the problem. You'll see it now. Yes it was the box that had the "Remember..... quote and said 'Welcome Back (username)." That has been turned off for that customized theme so you only see the logo / navigation bar at top.

Oh Darn I bet I made the same mistake as before - I did not "Enable" it. Be right back.

Yes Julia, Kalosyni is correct that it should be in the list -- maybe the name is being truncated on the screen you are using? If so I can shorten the name or give it a different starting letter. Let me know if you don't see it and we'll try that.

As for customized artwork that is a great idea and we'd welcome any suggestions you want to make. Like everything else here the styling is a "work in progress" so we're not wedded to any single decision.

Holly your recent Basil Rathbone post reminded me of your interest in movies, and we have a section on Epicurean-Friendly Movies here that you might have some suggestions for:

Movies / Books (fiction) With Epicurean Philosophical Themes

And i see that Don just welcomed you and you may find some commonailities to discuss since he is a luminary in the world of library science, though in an adjoining state so there may be some rivalry involved

For Julia in particular (but I think others will like this as well) we now have the option to turn off the "Welcome Box" at the top of each page. The Welcome Box serves an important purpose for default new users who drop by the forum for the first time, but if you get to the point where you want to turn off the Welcome section but keep the other aspects of the Inspire theme (mainly the header bar) you can now change your style to "A-Default Theme Without Welcome Bar At Top."

If someone is using one of the other Inspire Colors and wants a "No Welcome Box" variation of that style, let me know and I'll fix up one of those too.

I am still in the early editing phase of this episode but I now realize that early on, Joshua and I discussed including references to Marcus Aurelius within the discussion of the Stoic viewpoint on the gods. For obvious reasons Velleius doesn't include reference to anything Aurelius said, but I think it would be helpful to listeners who are familiar with Stoicism if we include a couple of references to Aurelius on gods, since Aurelius is probably the Stoic with whom they are most familiar.

We can add in reference to that in our next episode if we come up with something particularly interesting, so if anyone knows of interesting statements by Aurelius on the gods, please let us know. The context of this will become more clear too when we release this Episode 233, hopefully in the next several days,

This post is primarily for Don but I think we have more than one participant who works in Don's field (maybe now including HollyGraves? ) and I came across a website today advocating a method that might at some point be useful to consider some version of implementation for this site.

The website i came across is https://johnnydecimal.com/ I see he has a video here: https://johnnydecimal.com/10-19-concepts…cimal-workshop/

First of all, I am wondering if Don or others use any kind of similar system in their personal or work life.

i ask this in part because it's a challenge to categorize forums and concepts so that they are findable. I think it definitely makes sense to use the "Physics, Canonics, Ethics" categories, but I'm wondering if it would be useful to impose some more formal structure on the subdivisions within those. Does anyone attempt to categorize their notes into anything resembling a "JohnnyDecimal-like" system?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Welcome HollyGraves

[I am very happy to welcome HollyGravesto the forum. I'm including the standard "Welcome Message" below in case someone has decided to hijack the username, but if this is "the" HollyGraves the we have someone who's been very helpful to Elli and Martin and I (and others) in the past, and who we are very glad to have an account over here!]

Please check out our Getting Started page, but in the meantime there is one last step to complete your registration:

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Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you Julia! I'll see if I can tweak that in an upcoming revision!

Thank you Tau Phi!