Posts by Cassius

Welcome Ulfilas and thank you for responding to this Welcome thread!

Rolf to drop back to Don's comment in post 28 and his earlier comment about pleasures that you "get out of the way from," I've thought of another example of a type of pleasure that I think is applicable:

In addition to Epicurus saying that he found his own peace chiefly in the study of nature, which I would say clearly includes the philosophical debates about nature which we are discussing, there is another very good example in the opening of Book 2 of Lucretius:

Quote from Munro Version

2-01

It is sweet, when on the great sea the winds trouble its waters, to behold from land another’s deep distress; not that it is a pleasure and delight that any should be afflicted, but because it is sweet to see from what evils you are yourself exempt. It is sweet also to look upon the mighty struggles of war arrayed along the plains without sharing yourself in the danger. But nothing is more welcome than to hold the lofty and serene positions well fortified by the learning of the wise, from which you may look down upon others and see them wandering all abroad and going astray in their search for the path of life, see the contest among them of intellect, the rivalry of birth, the striving night and day with surpassing effort to struggle up to the summit of power and be masters of the world.

O wretched are the thoughts of men! How blind their souls! In what dark roads they grope their way, in what distress is this life spent, short as it is! Don't you see Nature requires no more than the body free from pain, that she may enjoy the mind easy and cheerful, removed from care and fear?

I would equate understanding the implication and the solution to radical skepticism in general, of which the Meno Paradox is part, to a good example of a part of what Lucretius is referring to as causing the wandering and going astray in the path of life. I say this from the point of view that you can't be confident that Nature does in fact no more than pleasure over pain, and you can't be removed from care and fear, if you don't think it is possible to be confident that these things are true, and that supernatural control and eternal punishment are false.

Now again - not everyone is bothered by the claims of philosophical skepticism or sees the immediate relevance to them. If they are not so bothered, then more power to them, but we likely would not have Epicurean philosophy to talk about in the first place if Epicurus and Metrodorus and Hermarchus and Lucretius and Diogenes of Oinoanda and Philodemus had not been bothered by them.

Quote from Martin

Therefore, it might be wrong to call instincts or reflexes prolepses.

I would emphasize the "might" there, as there may be a relationship of some kind (at the very least, both seem to be related to something that is present at birth, prior to all experience through ears and eyes and the rest). However what I think would definitely be wrong would be to "equate" the two, because they pretty clearly are not exactly the same in all respects and functions.

Welcome Ulfilas

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Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Welcome Ulfilas - I will set up your welcome thread now.

Also, what aspect of the Sisson translation makes it your favorite?

Thread

Welcome Ulfilas!

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Cassius

June 27, 2025 at 5:42 AM

Quote from Don

That said, with due respect to Cassius and others bringing in Meno and the theory of knowledge, I **personally** see prolepsis, ancient concepts of memory formation, the workings of the psykhē (mind/soul), to be of tangential importance to applying Epicurus' philosophy in the modern world to my way of living. I find the investigations that the ancients dealt in and how they arrived at their findings of fascinating intellectual curiosity. But eidola do not grind grooves into my psykhē to make subsequent similar eidola easier to intercept. Brains don't work that way.

Yes Rolf, it's important to realize that not everyone here has the same focus and goals. Some of us are more interested in our own personal lives, and some of us are more interested in reconstructing the system for for longer-term societal applications. These goals can be complementary and there is no reason for them to be in conflict, but you don't want to let yourself get whipsawed between the two perspectives.

To date we have had a small enough group that most everyone who has posted regularly has participated in most every conversation. But it's not necessary for those who aren't worried about competition between the schools to worry about the competitive angles, nor do the "evangelicals" need to look down on the "therapists." Each person can decide for themselves which aspects they are interested in and pursue those. If you are anyone reading this doesn't feel that prolepsis is something that interests you, there's no need to force yourself down a path that doesn't seem to be leading anywhere to that person. On the other hand canonics is an example of a hotly-debated topic that Epicurus himself thought to be important.

Also, most of us think in terms of prolepsis being related to pattern recognition.

Think about if you were programming a computer to do pattern recognition. In addition to the camera and microphone (equivalents of eyes and ears) you would need some kind of software mechanism to take those inputs and detect recognizable patterns. Without that software mechanism the input of the camera and microphone would mean nothing. But the detection itself cannot be a set of pre-programmed patterns to match against - else those would be "innate ideas." We're talking something more akin to "AI" that can assemble patterns into ever-increasing layers of complexity.

But the faculty of prolepsis is the assembly process, not any particular pattern that is detected or assembled.

And in case we haven't mentioned this recently, a conclusion can be based in part on a prolepsis and still be wrong, Faculties are never true or false, but the conclusions we draw based on them can be. That's pat of the exaplanation for how people can come to so many incorrect conclusions about the gods, even though everyone has their own faculty of prolepsis.

Rolf: Try this analogy:

What is an example of a sight? What is an example of a hearing? What is an example of a smell? You can describe a tree or a song or a flower at a conceptual level, but that is not the question. Trees and songs and flowers are complex conceptual conclusions.

Prolepsis is a faculty, not an idea or a conclusion.

The sense of smell is given to us by nature and we use it all the time without understanding or caring about its nature, so this is an example of a faculty that gives us input to knowledge, but not knowledge iteself.

Anytime you can state an idea as a proposition, such as "there is a god" you are already past the proleptic stage, in my opinion.

And so Velleius does not really reference, to my understanding, "a prolepsis of a god." Rather, he is saying that we have a proleptic faculty which disposes us to thoughts which leads to the idea of a god, just as we have a nose which functions in a way that gives us input into a final conception of a flower.

Now, if what you are really focusing on is the proof of the existence of a god, then it's my view that that proof goes far beyond just prolepsis. I think that's why Velleius then goes on to talk about isonomia, because the particular concept of a particular type of god is another issue for chain reasoning that incorporates other issues, such as the infinity and eternality of the universe and that nature never makes a single thing of a kind.

So the ground floor is back at the point of realizing that prolepsis is a faculty parallel with seeing or hearing or pleasure or pain. It reacts in particular predisposed ways, but it does not itself provide content.

Quote from Rolf

How does prolepsis help to disprove that “all this - including our thought processes - have been supernaturally created”? From what I understand, prolepsis just describes instances of in-built knowledge, right? But not where those preconceptions come from? Couldn’t a supernatural believer still just respond, “well those preconceptions come from god”?

It "disproves" a supernatural basis for thought processes by providing a rational non-supernatural basis for understanding what we observe to be the case in the way people think and make decisions, without resorting to pre--existence or other supernatural arguments. This is very parallel to atomism, which provides a non-supernatural basis for the way the world works. In both cases you're now asking how atomism or prolepsis/canonics "disprove" the supernatural, and the answer to that has to come down to your conclusions about what kind of proof is possible and what is required. If you fall into the belief that only god can provide certainty, then you can never meet that standard -- but there is no reason to accept that supernatural standard in the first place. This is an issue far beyond the prolepsis alone and falls under general canonics, but prolepsis is an important part.

Quote from DaveT

Have I missed something? I tend to think that the prolepsis discussed by Epicurus was based on a limitation of his access to modern science 2,300 years ago. I think it is becoming clearer that a conception that you can know something before you apprehend it, or use your senses to learn it, is not how we know things.

Others may agree with you DaveT, but speaking only for myself I don't think Epicurus would have cared any more what science today says than we should care about what science in 4500 AD will say. We can only live our lives with the information that we have. Epicurus knew that using the word "prolepsis" does not convey all the details of thought, just as he knew that talking about "atoms" doesn't explain all the workings of the human body.

It seems clear that prolepsis was considered to be an advanced topic, and that's why it is not explained at length in Epicurus' letters or in Lucretius.

As to "a conception that you can know something before you apprehend it, or use your senses to learn it, is not how we know things" I don't think that this gets to the heart of the issue. I think the best way to get to that is to read some of the material on the Meno paradox, as that sets out the logical dilemma that Plato was trying to throw in the way of any philosophy based on the senses. To me the prolepsis issue is geared toward that debate, and I suspect that it leads to a lot of spinning wheels to read something "clinical" into it that will improve day to day pleasure/pain decisionmaking.

Catherine Wilson's material is generally pretty good, Noah, and when I have watched her videos I have found her to be engaging and obviously a very nice lady. I also praise her for her willingness to be frank that there are major differences between Epicurus and the Stoics. Many writers try to gloss those over and de-emphasize them, but she does not, and that scores major good points with me.

My major issues with her books is that I think she could combines too many political arguments with her discussion of Epicurus. I think that's a dangerous tendency - to think that one's personal politics are Epicurean and other political views are not. Certainly that can be true to some extent, especially as to religious-based views, but I do not think it is helpful at all for Epicurean philosophy to be portrayed as endorsing any part off the modern political spectrum.

I think you'll enjoy Catherine Wilson's book so by all means read it. For a step up into more detailed philosophy, I'd move to Emily Austin's book. When you are ready for a more sweeping "textbook" style approach, then go to the DeWitt book. There are lots of other good ones as well, but those are particularly helpful.

Great points and they definitely lead to your final question.

Quote from DaveT

I don't know how that way of life can be widely adopted unless monotheistic thought is abandoned widely. Thoughts?

I believe that you are right and the Epicurean way of life can't be widely adopted in many parts of the world - the prevalence of monotheistic influence, including in the morality of "humanism" which has much the same basis, is a huge obstacle.

Certainly monotheistic religion is not going to be abandoned overnight, but on the other hand there was a time when it played little role in Western civilization, so it's not inevitable that it remain so powerful.

Epicurus didn't have to confront the type that we confront today, but I agree with Nietzsche that Epicurus was already combating a form of monotheism as it existed in the Greco-Roman world at his time. What we face today is a much more powerful and oppressive form than what Epicurus faced.

But if Epicurus was right - as I think he was - there is no fate or necessity that prevents change from happening. We live in a time when at least for now information is more widely accessible than ever, and that opens up possibilities that never before existed.

Epicurean philosophy provides a foundation from which people in the future can build further to overcome these problems, and even now in the present I personally get a lot of satisfaction and pleasure out of thinking that we can do a small part to re-educate the world to the Epicurean alternative.

No doubt we know only the famous ones, but every example of a devoted Epicurean in the ancient world seems to have been a campaigner for the views that they adopted from Epicurus. That's really the core mission of Epicureanfriends.com, to campaign on these ideas, even as we also help ourselves and learn to live better in the here and now.

I am sure others will have suggestions but let me take a stab at it:

Quote from Rolf

How does prolepsis help defend against skepticism and allow us to be confident in our knowledge?

It provides a framework which points to both a starting point for knowledge and way of expressing how we get to the point of concluding that some things are right and some things are wrong. Epicurus is constantly looking back to the ultimate questions of the universe, such as whether the universe is eternal in time or infinite in size or has any supernatural elements. If you can't point to a mechanism through which conceptual thinking began to be accumulated by living beings, then you are left with the concern that all this - including our thought processes - have been supernaturally created. I would say that prolepsis does for human thought what atomism does for pure physics - it provides a non-supernatural framework of analysis, and then it's up to us to go from there to understand more about atoms and more about the brain. But if you don't have such a framework, then many people will decide just to go with the flow of the gods and never challenge the orthodoxy. When you have conceptual framework for the development of concepts and truth that makes sense, you can confidently dismiss radical skepticism and have confidence in those things that you can hold to be true, vs those that are false and those where you have to "wait" and accept alternative possibilities until you have more information.

Quote from Rolf

Additionally, why is prolepsis necessary for us to know certain things? Isn’t it possible that we simply learn them from experience? I get that Epicurus had to respond to Meno’s paradox, but why didn’t he simply disagree with the whole premise that we need to have some foreknowledge of something in order to know it?

Because there is a root of truth to the question being asked in Meno. How do you conclude that you are "Right" about something if you don't already know what "right" is? How much experience is enough in order to be confident about something? Ultinately there has to be a framework in which you take a position on how much experience, and what kind of experience, is enough.

Quote from Rolf

Something like prolepsis is an important concept within the overarching philosophy even if it doesn’t directly relate to happiness or maximising pleasure.

Well of course I would say that it is absolutely essential to both happiness and maximizing pleasure unless you are confident that pleasure and happiness should be your goal, and that you are pursuing them correctly, then you will be plagued with doubt and all the problems that doubt creates

Great opening post Noah - thank you for letting us know this background. We don't have a large number of people from Finland, but Finland has probably represented a disproportionately high percentage of our visitors over the years.

Quote from Noah Calderon

I think I kind of settled on the conclusion that "If You Were Certain That There Are No Supernatural Gods And No Life After Death" you ought to make the most of life and stop clinging to ideals and imposed order and whatnot.

I think you're one of the first people to comment on that headline. You've read into it exactly what I intended in posting it.

Take your time and post when ready, but don't hesitate to ask questions even early on. The site profits a lot from going through the same basic issues and finding new ways to express them more clearly, so don't think that there are any "stupid" questions.

Quote from Rolf

I’ve got to be honest, I don’t really understand Meno’s paradox and how it’s helpful in the context of Epicurean philosophy.

The issue of skepticism is a huge one, and it is fundamental to the conflict between the schools.

But let me address something in particular as it may apply to all your comment in that post: Many people see Epicurus as a self-help therapist for whom it is a given that being "happy" is the goal, with the only question being what techniques to follow to achieve happiness.

I would say this is basic misunderstanding of what Epicurus as all about. Yes, understanding how to properly pursue happiness will follow in the end from Epicurus' insights, but that is not the place you have to start. As Diogenes of Oinoanda says, the question is not the "means" of happiness, but "What is happiness?" in the first place.

Plato's cave analogy is famous because it dramatizes the contention of the Platonists (and the rest) that human life is lived in the dark with only unreliable flickers of evidence that we can't trust. Such people therefore contend that we therefore ultimately need to trust in the gods and their gift of esoteric logic in order to understand the truth. These people say that we are a supernatural creation and that we ultimately need to live a life of hard-coded virtue in order to live life properly.

So the very first issue is whether we as humans are even capable of understanding anything to be true. All the other major Greek schools held that we cannot do so without some form of "logic" that transcens the senses and our natural abilities as the core of the way forward. Even today we are confronted with Abrahamism which says essentially the same thing, just more explicitly based on religion.

Just as with atomism which is needed to understand physics, Epicurus needed a framework for understanding the way humans think -- a way that we *can* legitimately determine which things are true and which are not. If you are convinced from the beginning that truth is impossible to find, you will eventually give up trying, and that is what Epicurus is finding.

Remember, Epicurus started out as a philosopher because he rejected the theories of chaos and he wanted a framework that he could believe to be true. He is primarily a philosopher, not a therapist, and while he is happy to build a therapy on top of the philosophy, Epicurus says that it would be better to believe the myths of the religions than to give in to hard core determinism, which is itself a kind of skepticism. If Epicurus had concluded that the evidence supports that a supernatural god and heaven really did exist, Epicurus would have embraced it, because his primary concern is truth, not taking a pleasure pill. You don't know for sure that pleasure is the appropriate guide until you've taken a firm position on the basic constitution of the universe, and you can't take a firm position on the basic constitution of the universe until you have confidence that taking a firm position of any kind on any subject is possible.

The point i would stress is that the friction and conflict between the schools is real and essential to recognize. Epicurus was practical enough to see that he had to engage in that conflict if he wanted his school to be successful, to reach more people with its message, and to survive that conflict without being run out of town, as he himself had been in Mytilene.

The primary weapons used against Epicurus were skepticism and determinism, as they remain today. A theory of knowledge, of which prolepsis is an important part (but not the whole) is essential to being confident of anything, and to fighting back against those weapons that are being used against us. You can't have confidence that skepticism and determinism are wrong without a proper theory of knowledge.

Welcome Noah Calderon

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Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

Please check out our Getting Started page.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

If I recall correctly the first video in the following post is very good:

Post

RE: Prolepsis / Anticipations As Epicurus' Answer to the MENO Problem

So far this video by Matthew Lampert is the best I have found setting forth Meno's issue. There is also a Greg Sadler video on this one, and I will link it below, but I don't consider it as good as the first one. I'll keep looking for a better video that sets out the basic issue.

Matthew Lampert: if you only watch one video, watch this one:

youtu.be/yXKnS7YXOv4

Greg Sadler:

youtu.be/QrIYClniEHc

Cassius

October 31, 2024 at 6:15 PM

This sets up that the entire issue is a sort of logic problem, and if prolepsis is a response to it as it appears to be, that shows that the theory of prolepsis has its root in a deductive logic chain just like atoms do.

[EDIT: I changed that last sentence to add "the theory of prolepsis." I would say that: "Atomism" is a theory that describes in general terms what atoms are without giving us every detail; atoms themselves are real. "Prolepsis" is a theory that describes a faculty that allows us to recognize patterns without explaining every detail of the process, but the individual experiences of prolepsis are not just a theory but really exist.]

And that's why I keep saying that we shouldn't be looking at this primarily in terms of human biology. Yes the exploration of human biology will give us validation that the conceptual framework makes sense, but just like Epicurean atomism is a framework rather than a blueprint that we can take and immediately start building molecules and planetary systems, prolepsis is not going to be something that immediately lets us start decoding the workings of the brain. Prolepsis is a logical theory that shows to us that knowledge is possible and gives us justification for dismissing the Platonic arguments and moving forward with science at whatever pace we find appropriate. That's a hugely important achievement that should not be underestimated, even if it doesn't immediately lead to a pill to take for depression or mental illness.. To judge prolepsis to be lousy psychology would be just as unfair and inappropriate as to judge Epicurus to be a lousy builder of nuclear reactors.

Thanks Joshua.

Godfrey we have a discussion thread on it here:

Thread

Prolepsis / Anticipations As Epicurus' Answer to the MENO Problem

We definitely need to keep working on making prolepsis / anticipations understandable to normal people of ordinary education. In reading a 2023 work which @Matteng brought to our attention, I want to highlight the following passage passage to the effect that both Epicureans and Stoics looked to (their own) view of PROLEPSIS as the answer to "the Meno Problem."

We haven't yet gotten to the Epicurean sections of Cicero's Academica, but that's on the horizon for our podcast. By the time we get…

Cassius

October 31, 2024 at 1:20 PM

But we really need our own extended treatment of exactly what it involved.

Yes my first reaction to this is that it is an intentionally unflattering but grounded-in-truth description of such as what Epicurus was doing in his last days. He was mentally weighing total pleasures against total pains and considering that he was happy because the net pleasures predominated over the net pains -- at least up to that point in his life when he decided that this was going to be his "last day."

I can't help but think also that this approach has to be seen realistically as mental and conceptual rather than "clinical." In most normal cases you will be successful in getting past difficult circumstances. However when on the executioner's rack or when in extreme pain from terminal disease, the total sum of pains is going to eventually eclipse the total sum of pleasures. That has to be factored into the decision as to how longto continue to try to live on (were you to choose to endure every-growing pain with no hope of improvement). When the calculus becomes clear that it is about to turn net negative, that is the point is where you choose to exit the stage, as Epicurus himself apparently did.

There's no way that the mind can perceptually maintain a feeling of net pleasure under increasing extreme unrelenting and insolvable pain,. That's where I would say the ultimate limiting factor on pain has to be brought to bear.

And this is why too i expect the Epicureans saw it essential to be clear to people that the "pleasure" they identified was much broader than stimulative pleasure. And further that the "happiness" they identified as their goal did not involve the total absence of all pain from every moment of life and the need to expect that eventually in the case of everyone that calculation is going to turn negative.

I would be very concerned that people would rightly think that they were being defrauded if these points were not made clear. I therefore feel sure that the ancient Epicureans were clear as to the true meaning of pleasure and happiness, and that Cicero's claim of ignorance or misunderstanding was insincere. He knew better, but he chose to give the crowd the unrealistic view of Epicurus that they "wanted" to hear so that he could ridicule it and point out that - as they wanted to understand it - Epicurean philosophy is unworkable.

Today, when people are told that the goal of Epicurean philosophy is "absence of pain," it's going to be even more important to be clear. Most people have no reference point at all to understand these subtleties, and so they will eventually give up on Epicurus due to their unrealistic expectations unless those are corrected promptly.

This section contains an extended treatment of Epicurean views, especially the following:, in which we will have to be cautious, as Cicero himself seems to say that he is stating them differently than would the Epicureans:

Quote from Part 3 Section XV

But I shall speak more particularly on these matters after I have first considered Epicurus's opinion, who thinks that all people must necessarily be uneasy who believe themselves to be in any evils, let them be either foreseen and expected, or habitual to them; for, with him, evils are not the less by reason of their continuance, nor the lighter for having been foreseen; and it is folly to ruminate on evils to come, or such as, perhaps, never may come; every evil is disagreeable enough when it does come; but he who is constantly considering that some evil may befal him, is loading himself with a perpetual evil, and even should such evil never light on him, he voluntarily takes upon himself unnecessary misery, so that he is under constant uneasiness, whether he actually suffers any evil, or only thinks of it. But he makes the alleviation of grief depend on two things, a ceasing to think on evil, and a turning to the contemplation of pleasure. For he thinks that the mind may possibly be under the power of reason, and follow her directions; he forbids us, therefore, to mind trouble, and calls us off from sorrowful reflections: he throws a mist over our eyes to hinder us from the contemplation of misery. Having sounded a retreat from this statement, he drives our thoughts on again, and encourages them to view and engage the whole mind in the various pleasures with which he thinks the life of a wise man abounds, either from reflecting on the past, or from the hope of what is to come. I have said these things in my own way, the Epicureans have theirs: however, let us examine what they say; how they say it is of little consequence.

Welcome to Episode 288 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

This week we continue our series covering Cicero's "Tusculan Disputations" from an Epicurean viewpoint. This series addresses five of the greatest questions in human life (Death, Pain, Grief/Fear, Joy/Desire, and Virtue) with Cicero speaking for the majority and Epicurus the main opponent.

Today we begin in Part 3, which addresses Grief or pain of mind. We'll first comment on some general points Cicero makes, and then begin reading with Section IV.