Posts by Cassius

It would definitely interest me! Video on Skype or Voice/Text on Discordapp.com?

Please do Brett - that would be EXTREMELY helpful. We have never really gone through the book systematically, even on the Facebook forum, and if anyone is reading it now and would like to post questions or comments in this thread that would be very helpful!

If you wanted to get an unbiased view of Obama would you ask a Republican? If you wanted an unbiased view of Trump would you ask a Democrat? If you are studying Epicurus, you don't want to make a similar mistake. Epicurus has been reviled for 2000 years by leaders of Judaism, Christianity, and Academia alike, and Epicurean philosophy is more explosive to professional religionists and conventional philosophers than a capitalist is to a communist. In the English-speaking world there has been one classical authority who devoted his professional career to reconstructing a picture of Epicurean philosophy as it was likely taught by Epicurus himself. That man was Norman Dewitt, his book was "Epicurus and His Philosophy." If you are an English-only reader who has formed your opinion of Epicurus without reading that book, then you are no better off than a jury on a criminal case which has heard only the prosecution and nothing from the defendant.

Find Norman DeWitt's book at your local library or online, and make sure you have both sides of the story of Epicurus And His Philosophy. In the meantime, the introductory essay which DeWitt wrote seven years before "Epicurus And His Philosophy" can be found here: http://newepicurean.com/philosophy-for…-norman-dewitt/

Welcome Eikadistes , and thanks for all your work so far on that Epicurean diagram, and for access to your videos, both of which show tremendous talent!

A Video By An Epicurean Friend - "Love On Air And Strings"

Please be sure to give us any suggestion, comment, criticism, you want to add. And there might be times I need to enlist your help on something technical, as the forum software was written by a bunch of Germans and they have a tendency to write important technical information in a language I can't understand

If you use an RSS reader to follow your favorite sites, please check the new entry on the right side of the Home page for a list of all the RSS feeds available at EpicureanFriends. If you are registered member the preferred method of subscribing is to go to the RSS icon at the top right of the Forum, the Gallery, the FileBase, and the Articles section, and use those RSS icons to subscribe. That way you get an individualized RSS feed with your personal permissions preserved. But the "public" RSS feeds work just fine for most uses, so if you use RSS, be sure to subscribe.

Jason thank you for posting that link to Hiram's curriculum, as I glanced at it again. In as friendly a way as possible this illustrates how my personal approach differs from Hiram's. There is a lot of good material on that page, but am I missing it or does Hiram not have DeWitt's book listed at all? Argh. I would tell everyone what I told Belial. Start with, and do not worry about anything else, until you have gone through DeWitt's "Epicurus and His Philosophy." There is nothing like it anywhere. There is a lot of good material in other places, but if you start somewhere else, and get distracted, you will deprive yourself of the chance to hear the full Epicurean side of the argument. That's a risk I don't want anyone to take! I will tag Hiram here and urge him to add a prominent reference to Dewitt, and add Haris' book somewhere as well.

Brett - I sent you a private message about his. Be sure to check that message, and also be sure to check out the PDF resources I've linked at this page: http://newepicurean.com/resources/library/

I am so glad you asked that! There is only ONE answer in my humble opinion, and it is head and shoulders the best introduction to Epicurus:

NORMAN DEWITT's "EPICURUS AND HIS PHILOSOPHY"

http://newepicurean.com/other-resource…his-philosophy/

It is out of print but it is not hard to find on Ebay, used book stores, or various other places on the internet.

I would advise anyone reading Epicurus to get this book first. The reasons are many, but they boil down to this: DeWitt makes an effort to present Epicurus in a sympathetic manner, attempting to reconstruct the philosophy as a coherent whole. He shows how Epicurus was reacting against Plato and other opponents of pleasure, and shows how Epicurus differs dramatically both from his Plato and Aristotle and also from the Stoics who came after him. Most every other modern book is an academic presentation that spends more time attacking Epicurus than presenting his position. If you read DeWitt, and then read the others, you'll have both sides of the story and be better able to make your own judgment. If you never read DeWitt, you'll never really hear the "Epicurean side" of the story.

I'm not going to be able to finish the article tonight, but here's another example:

"Any transition to living out a philosophy starts out slow, so I’ll begin by attempting to live humbly."

That violates clear Epicurean doctrine and shows the writer is off base. An Epicurean keeps his eye on the ball, which is living pleasurably. Focusing on the technique, rather than on the goal, is a sure way to go off base, because some circumstances require one technique, and other circumstances require other techniques, with the goal always being that of achieving pleasure and avoiding pain.

And this sentence is an example of why this is NOT Epicurean thought to say with no exception that everyone should live simply in all circumstances: "Contrary to Epicurean thought, many things that are easy to acquire produce misery."

The writer seems unfamiliar with VS63: "63. There is also a limit in simple living, and he who fails to understand this falls into an error as great as that of the man who gives way to extravagance."

Epicurus didn't advise living simply for the sake of living simply - he advised living simply when it makes sense, and enjoying luxury when it makes sense, in order to maximize pleasure and minimize pain under your individual circumstances.

I think the latter part of the section on Nature is just the writer's political preferences, yet he makes no references to the large number of PD's on "justice." And so he reaches the conclusion "In combination, these four large changes in nature make modern Epicureanism miserable and nearly impossible." which I suggest is hogwash.

This is significantly off too: "Yet Epicurus seemed to rely on more than just a barley cake and some water for his happiness. Without a job to support him, Epicurus relied on Greece’s mild climate and bountiful land. He also relied on a relatively small population to compete with for natural resources. In addition, he relied on natural resources that were clean, and open spaces that were free enough to live on peacefully. He relied on a political system that enforced peace, order, and justice without also encroaching on his way of life."

Read Epicurus's will. Epicurus wasn't poor by any means, and he disposes of a significant number of slaves and pieces of property in his will. This implication that he was living poor and off the land is just not supported by the texts.

This part also deserves mention: "After defining good and evil, Epicurus defined the good life. To Epicurus, the good life consists of experiencing as much pleasure, with as little pain as humanly possible. Therefore, to achieve the good life, we must strive for easily accessible pleasures in rational amounts. By keeping our desires humble, we can satisfy them over and over again. Any pain they cause us will be smaller than the pleasure we derive from their satisfaction. In this way, anyone can maintain a sustainably high pleasure-to-pain ratio. "

The first two sentences are correct, I think, but the rest does not follow, and is not what Epicurus really said. Number one, there's nothing in Epicurus about "rational" amounts other than that amount which brings more pleasure and less pain. "Rational" is always a suspect word unless it is kept in mind that the reason behind everything is the pleasure/pain calculus. The rest is also fairly accurate, but "keeping our desires humble" isn't necessarily the same as keeping them sustainable, and also isn't necessarily the same for everyone. There's also the question of individual preference in terms of which pleasures someone is going to decide are worthwhile for them to pursue, and there's no Epicurean method that i know of that says that living 5 years as an astronaut exploring space is less to be chosen than spending 10 years lying in bed in a nursing home.

I am scanning this again and this time this passage caught my eye more: "To Epicurus, satisfaction is the highest pleasure, whereas unfulfilled desire is the highest pain." <<< I am forgetting some of the terminology tonight but this theory of pleasure is not at all the complete story, and that is well established in the texts on pleasure such as Gosling & Taylor "Greeks on Pleasure." One classic example of how all pleasure is not satisfaction of a deficit is the smelling of a flower. Were you in pain because you were not smelling the flower before you smelled it? No, you did not miss the smell at all, and yet it was pleasurable to smell the flower. Many other examples can be given how all pleasure is not the satisfaction of a pain, and this way of analyzing pleasure (and attacking it) was dismissed even before Epicurus.

Thanks for posting that. We have seen and mentioned that on the Facebook page in the past, but of course I doubt I can find that to reference it. I will have to refresh my memory:

FOUND IT! Here it is, and the reaction was what you would expect:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Epicure…54065381309088/

Jason BakerGroup Admin Wolfgang Pauli would likely have had a pithy comment to make about this article. "Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"The album was released on February and was released in " this is not just wrong, it's not even wrong!"Automatically Translated

Like
· Reply · 1
· August 2, 2016 at 10:11am
Manage

Cassius AmicusGroup Admin "Both Epicurus and his philosophical rivals the Stoics would quickly assert their definitions for ‘good’. The Stoics would say that ‘good’ simply means ‘benefit’." Oh good grief, is the entire article like this? BENEFIT??? what happened to virtue?

Like
· Reply · 1
· August 2, 2016 at 10:18am
Manage

Jason BakerGroup Admin It gets better*.


*read: worse.

Like
· Reply · August 2, 2016 at 10:19am
Manage

Cassius AmicusGroup Admin Jason Baker Yes you are right it does get worse!!!!

Like
· Reply · 1
· August 2, 2016 at 10:24am
Manage

Michael Carteron Yeah, that threw me too. "Benefit" sounds more in line with Epicureanism, although even then way off. I seriously have to doubt the author's knowledge of these philosophies.

Like
· Reply · 2
· August 2, 2016 at 7:22pm
Manage

Cassius AmicusGroup Admin Michael Carteron - Right - he does not sound like he has read them deeply - unfortunately his superficial understanding is probably the way the majority of people are taught.

Like
· Reply · 1
· August 2, 2016 at 9:56pm
Manage

Michael Carteron I would expect better from a philosopher.

Like
· Reply · August 2, 2016 at 11:26pm
Manage

Write a reply...

Cassius AmicusGroup Admin " To Epicurus, satisfaction is the highest pleasure, whereas unfulfilled desire is the highest pain." Here I think we have another candidate for Ekshesh Bekele's possible view (?) that the eradication of desire is the goal of Epicurus

Like
· Reply · August 2, 2016 at 10:20am
Manage

Cassius AmicusGroup Admin "After defining good and evil, Epicurus defined the good life. To Epicurus, the good life consists of experiencing as much pleasure, with as little pain as humanly possible. " Ironically this writer states a formulation better than we see in many other places, whether he realizes it or not. He's almost quoting the Ciceronian statement "nothing was preferable to a life of tranquility crammed full of pleasures."

Like
· Reply · August 2, 2016 at 10:22am
Manage

Cassius AmicusGroup Admin So he swerves off into politics and concludes: "In combination, these four large changes in nature make modern Epicureanism miserable and nearly impossible."

Like
· Reply · August 2, 2016 at 10:24am
Manage

Write a reply...

Cassius AmicusGroup Admin In the end this is a good article to support why I crusade on the issues I do. The version of Epicureanism presented here is essentially the same taught by the majority of websites and academics, and if their version was correct I wouldn't want anything to do with it either.

Like
· Reply · 1
· August 2, 2016 at 12:40pm
Manage

Michael Carteron Yeah, it's very odd. He seems to assume that Epicureans don't work or something.

Like
· Reply · 1
· August 2, 2016 at 7:23pm
Manage

Cassius AmicusGroup Admin Yep - I'm afraid he takes the stoic view of epicureans and carries it to its logical extreme - which in a way is to his credit, since he is being consistent with what he believes to be true.

Like
· Reply · August 2, 2016 at 9:55pm
Manage

Write a reply...

Ron Warrick I'm hoping this is unserious satire.

Like
· Reply · August 2, 2016 at 11:50pm
Manage

Michael Carteron I doubt it.

Like
· Reply · 1
· August 2, 2016 at 11:51pm
Manage

Cassius AmicusGroup Admin I would like to think satire too, but the drift of the article is what is popularly taught about Epicurus across the internet, eg the DeBotton "school of life" perspective, and even some who post here.

Like
· Reply · August 3, 2016 at 7:40am · Edited
Manage

Write a reply...

Scott Heavner I think that the author of this article grossly exaggerated the tenants of Epicureanism. It would be like us saying that the perfect Stoic was a carbon copy of Mr. Spock (though I love Spock). Even a life lived in extreme Christian piety would fail this so called hobo test. Prudent living and fair assessment of life's necessities is a far cry from apathy. This author has a master's degree in philosophy? That kind of nauseates me.

Like
· Reply · 1
· August 3, 2016 at 1:00pm · Edited
Manage

Cassius AmicusGroup Admin Apologies to the exceptions, but my perception is that the author is pretty typical of what one becomes when one has a master's degree in philosophy!

Like
· Reply · 2
· August 3, 2016 at 1:28pm
Manage

Scott Heavner Very true :-P.

Like
· Reply · August 3, 2016 at 7:29pm

Suggestion for a main photo for a new Meetup Group:

That is where I think Meetup helps, Eignegrau. I think that pretty much any population center at all, if you put up an Epicurean Meetup group page you can count on 3 or 4 people to "like" it, and that probably is enough to a start. I am going to test all this myself too, so I will report my own experiences!

Suppose you were an educated but normal person looking to fill some free time in your life, and you knew enough about Epicurus to click on a link taking you information about a Epicurean Meetup Group. What topic/information would you want to see on that site, and what would you want to hear about at the first meeting, that would encourage you to go to the Meetup meeting and then come back again for more. That's not far from asking "why did you click on this Facebook group?" In answer, can you help with this list, or suggest items that might not seem related to these but would attract and maintain interest during the initial phases of learning Epicurean philosophy:

(1) Epicurus was widely regarded by some of the world's greatest thinkers, including Thomas Jefferson and Frederick Nietzsche, as one of the world's most important philosophers.

(2) The reason Epicurus has always been held in great esteem by some, and has been hated by many others, is that he taught a way of looking at Nature and our place in it much different from that taught by the religions and philosophies most of us know today.

(3) Epicurus will teach you why your happiness, and not religious and philosophical abstractions, should be the goal of your life.

(4) Epicurus will teach you how to deal with the fear of death.

(5) Epicurus will teach you how to deal with the fear of gods and the threats of religions

(6) Epicurus will teach you that your emotions are not things to be feared, but important guidance on how you should live your life.

(7) Epicurus will teach you that you need not consider your world to be unknowable, and that confidence in your place in the world is possible.

(8) Epicurus will teach you that knowledge is based on the senses, and that calls to "logic" and "reason" must always be grounded in the evidence of the senses.

(9) Epicurus will teach you the true role of the "virtues" and their purpose in life.

(10) Epicurus will teach you why friendship is the most important tool in happy living.

(11) Epicurus will teach you how the nature of "justice" varies with time, place, and circumstance, but has a unifying purpose in human life that is the same for all.

Welcome Martin ! Glad to have you with us and you have my pledge that I am going to work as hard as I can to see that this site is going to be here for many years to come!