Posts by Cassius

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Saving someone from drowning is a very apt analogy!

Al Hakiim please comment when you can while reading and that will help us expand our Jefferson subsection. There's a great deal of explicitly philosophical material in those letters that deserve discussion.

In addition to the letters with Adams there is a lot of interesting commentary in the "Head and Heart" letter as well, in which I think he gives the "heart" - rather than rationalism - the better part of the argument.

I also found Jeffersons connection to "Thomas Cooper MD" very useful, given Cooper's explicit materialism. See thomascoopermd.com And there are all sorts of other figures of that period from Thomas Paine to Elihu Palmer and details of "deism" that have at least significant Epicurean overtones. Not to mention the explicitly Epicurean "A,Few Days In Athens," which Jefferson endorsed, and of which I am sure there is much more to the story than a one-off writing project by Frances Wright.

There's a lot more connection to Epicurus in that period than we've been led to believe.

Thanks to your motivation posts, Al-Hakiim, I've set up a page here and copied over the resources from NewEpicurean. Hopefully they will be easier to use here:

Thomas Jefferson Resources - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

I presume this is an older edition but looks like there is an Archive.org link here:

Plutarch's Lives : Plutarch : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

11v. 17cm

archive.org

One more comment about the Jefferson connection. i too found it highly motivational to understand Epicurus as an influence on Jefferson and thereby as an influence on the development of American historical thought. But the significance by no means stops there. At some point you'll want to consider Nietzsche's interpretations of Epicurus (not all of which are consistent, unfortunately) and especially consider what Nietzsche had to say in his "Antichrist" about the influence of Epicurus and Lucretius on the entire Western world, rather than just on America. Jefferson reserved much of his appreciation for Epicurus for his private letters, but Nietzsche referenced Epicurus in public and in very challenging terms.

Quote from Nietzsche' Antichrist

The sneakishness of hypocrisy, the secrecy of the conventicle, concepts as black as hell, such as the sacrifice of the innocent, the unio mystica in the drinking of blood, above all, the slowly rekindled fire of revenge, of Chandala revenge—all that sort of thing became master of Rome: the same kind of religion which, in a pre-existent form, Epicurus had combatted. One has but to read Lucretius to know what Epicurus made war upon—not paganism, but "Christianity", which is to say, the corruption of souls by means of the concepts of guilt, punishment and immortality.—He combatted the subterranean cults, the whole of latent Christianity—to deny immortality was already a form of genuine salvation.—Epicurus had triumphed, and every respectable intellect in Rome was Epicurean—when Paul appeared… Paul, the Chandala hatred of Rome, of "the world", in the flesh....

Also for another far-reaching publicly-stated interpretation of Epicurus that has a Jefferson connection, be sure to read his friend's Frances Wright's "A Few Days In Athens." That's another highly interesting book that I myself might never have found without our Epicurean networking on the internet.

On behalf of all of us who have generated the content over the years, thank you for the kind words about the website Al-Hakiim!

For me finding the Jefferson endorsement of Epicurus was key. I'm not sure what you've seen here at the forum, but be sure you find the full collection of Jefferson material collected here. Hopefully we have all or part of that here, but if not we need to make sure those other letters beyond the Peter Carr "I too am an Epicurean" are easily findable. The letters with John Adams make it even more plain that Jefferson understood a lot about Epicurus.

So yes the Jefferson connection was a major influence on my own thinking. Now, given the path that you're own, i'd recommend the DeWitt book (for the sweeping scope) followed by the Austin book (for a contemporary appreciation that doesn't follow the modern trend to water down the philosophy).

it may not be an issue for you, but one of the most challenging aspects for most people is getting past a superficial interpretation of the word "pleasure." I would not recommend too much focus on Lucretius or even the core texts until you have read an introductory summary like DeWitt, but for me the most benefit has come from reading Books One and Two of Cicero's On Ends. Definitely don't tackle that until you've read enough introductory material to give you background on the "Pleasure" debate - for example you need to be sure that you are acquainted with the "anti-pleasure" arguments typified by Plato's "Philebus." DeWitt can provide most of that. But once you get familiar with how Cicero (and the other philosphers) were limiting the term "pleasure" to "sensuality," and how Epicurus saw fit to respond to that by emphasizing that there are only two feelings, and thus all feelings which are not painful come within "pleasure," then you are no longer trapped into thinking that the advocacy of "pleasure" means nothing more than tea parties and dreamy indulgence.

As Dewitt put it on page 240 of “Epicurus And His Philosophy” page 240 (emphasis added):

“The extension of the name of pleasure to this normal state of being was the major innovation of the new hedonism. It was in the negative form, freedom from pain of body and distress of mind, that it drew the most persistent and vigorous condemnation from adversaries. The contention was that the application of the name of pleasure to this state was unjustified on the ground that two different things were thereby being denominated by one name. Cicero made a great to-do over this argument, but it is really superficial and captious. The fact that the name of pleasure was not customarily applied to the normal or static state did not alter the fact that the name ought to be applied to it; nor that reason justified the application; nor that human beings would be the happier for so reasoning and believing.

And getting back to Jefferson, he too has really good advice:

I take the liberty of observing that you are not a true disciple of our master Epicurus, in indulging the indolence to which you say you are yielding. One of his canons, you know, was that “that indulgence which prevents a greater pleasure, or produces a greater pain, is to be avoided.” Your love of repose will lead, in its progress, to a suspension of healthy exercise, a relaxation of mind, an indifference to everything around you, and finally to a debility of body, and hebetude of mind, the farthest of all things from the happiness which the well-regulated indulgences of Epicurus ensure; fortitude, you know is one of his four cardinal virtues. That teaches us to meet and surmount difficulties; not to fly from them, like cowards; and to fly, too, in vain, for they will meet and arrest us at every turn of our road. Weigh this matter well; brace yourself up....

Welcome Al-Hakiim von Grof

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We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

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Welcome to the forum!

I completely agree, Bryan, and I see in this one of the most obvious problems with stoicism and all sorts of rationalism. Setting up "virtue" (in this case honesty) as an end it itself, never to be secondary to any other goal, is a prescription for disaster if what you value is a human life of pleasure rather than some arbitrarily selected abstract goal. It is absurd to think that you must be honest with the burglar who asks for the location of the keys so he can invade your house and murder your family.

"Pleasure" is not an arbitrarily selected abstract goal because it is based on a feeling given by nature, and even when the term "pleasure" is used as an abstraction, it can be immediately tested against the feeling.

And the whines of the past and current Ciceros and Senecas who push asceticism and virtue are especially easy to see through once you demolish their "pleasure = sex drugs and rocknroll" definition and realize that pleasure is everything in life that is desirable.

Both Cicero and Seneca preserved some important information about Epicurus so I give them credit for that, but I see in Cicero a greater willingness to be frank even in disagreement. And toward the end of his life Cicero maybe even made a few steps in the right direction by giving credit to Cassius for showing Cicero more vigor in Epicureanism than Cicero had expected to see. I would trade a hundred Senecas for one Cicero any day of the week.

Very interesting - thank you Tau Phi!

From the angle on the ring the face is reasonably approximate despite the lack of hair - wonder why the book cover is so off......

I want to really commend Joshua for his first segment here in this episode. Going back into Diogenes Laertius Book 9 for information on Pyrrho and his relationship with Epicurus is really helpful for understanding this issue.

Episode 262 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available: "He Who Says 'Nothing Can Be Known' Knows Nothing."

Welcome to Episode 263 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

This week we are continuing our review of the key doctrines of Epicurus that are featured here at Epicureansfriends on the front page of our website.

This week we will address "All Sensations Are True"

Discussion Outline (work in progress!) - "All Sensations Are True."

Ultimately not significant probably, but it's interesting to me that one of the things Sisyphus did was to halt death on earth. Aside from the comment here about no relief for the sick and dying, I would have thought that this would have made him a positive figure to be admired, almost like a Prometheus. I do see the other references to him killing visitors and so forth, but most if not all of the bad things he did would pale in comparison to him putting a stop to death (and wars) even temporarily. From Wikipedia

Cheating death

Sisyphus betrayed one of Zeus's secrets by revealing the whereabouts of the Asopid Aegina to her father, the river god Asopus, in return for causing a spring to flow on the Corinthian acropolis.^[8]

Zeus ordered Thanatos to chain Sisyphus in Tartarus. Sisyphus was curious as to why Charon, whose job it was to guide souls to the underworld, had not appeared on this occasion. Sisyphus slyly asked Thanatos to demonstrate how the chains worked. As Thanatos was granting him his wish, Sisyphus seized the opportunity and trapped Thanatos in the chains instead. Once Thanatos was bound by the strong chains, no one died on Earth, causing an uproar. Ares, the god of war, became annoyed that his battles had lost their fun because his opponents would not die. The exasperated Ares intervened, freeing Thanatos, enabling deaths to happen again and turned Sisyphus over to him.^[13]

In some versions, Hades was sent to chain Sisyphus and was chained himself. As long as Hades was trapped, nobody could die. Consequently, sacrifices could not be made to the gods, and those that were old and sick were suffering. The gods finally threatened to make life so miserable for Sisyphus that he would wish he were dead. He then had no choice but to release Hades.^[14]

Yes Godfrey your experience is more what I would expect. Maybe there's more going on with Joshua's experience that played a role beyond vegetarianism. Maybe he had enough time to think "Yay I'm now free, and I'm about to travel around the country in a truck" before he had his test and that improved his results!

The plural of anecdote may not be data, but depending upon the nature of the anecdotal testimony it's still "some" evidence - and that's at least a start and better than the pure speculation on which so much of what passes for "established truth" is based.

Some day more work needs to be done on: Epicurean Rules of Evidence

I doubt anyone will ever claim that our work "on evidence" meets the standard of "falling from the heavens," but apparently Epicurus' work on the Canon - pretty much the same subject - was impressive!

Joshua is probably a pretty fair evaluator of facts, so it would be interesting to hear about changes in the diet before and after and how that might relate to blood and vision. Since this is a thread on "vegetarianism" that wouldn't be far off topic.

This is a good topic to discuss. But I need to remind myself of the specifics of using Sisyphus as the example. This is the person who repeatedly pursued political power, right? Which is the reason for the title of the article "Not all politicians are Sisyphus...."

But do we have a good fix on "why" the person in the political example wants power? And that's where I am forgetting why Sisyphus was pushing the rock too.

So where I am going is that I would see the decision as to whether to "stop pushing" is very closely tied to the reason for the pushing in the first place. And so it might be good to comment more specifically on Sisyphus to help unravel that.

Just a short quick note to add to this topic because I recently heard someone say "If it can't die, it's not food."

That struck me as helpful in this analysis of the ethics of vegetarianism. Of course I presume that the emphasis at least most of the time in the debate is on "consciousness" as the dividing line between what is "ethical" to eat and what is not.

Nevertheless I can see that it would be useful to think of the problem in terms of the fact that even plants must "die" for us to eat them.

I'm still in the general camp that it makes a lot of sense to minimize conscious suffering whenever possible. Plus, it's hard for me to say that plants fall under any reasonable definition of consciousness.

But when you look at the issue from the more general point of view of "living" vs. non-living," it's also hard for me to argue the conversation ought to be judged in terms of "death" vs. "consciousness." And if you do look at the issue on that level, it seems to be more apparent that it's impossible for any living creature to survive except after the death of other living creatures.

So I guess that leaves me at "minimize the conscious suffering but it's ok to eat meat." And I should add that there are specific steps I would support to make sure conscious suffering is minimized, but agricultural / slaughtering practices are beyond the scope of this post.

Of course what we're talking about here as well is the "you can't bathe twice in the same river" paradox.

It seems Epicurus is telling us to realize that both things are true: (1) the drops / atoms of the river are constantly changing, but (2) it is perfectly proper and beneficial to consider that the "river" is the same river from moment to moment.

If this perspective were not adopted, we would be in all sorts of variations of Plato's cave, and we'd think that nothing we sense is "real" but only a shadow flickering on a wall. Or as Diogenes of Oinoanda attributed to Aristotle, we'd be in the position of thinking that everything was moving so fast that we could never be sure of anything.

The importance of this issue is that Epicurus' perspective allows us to be confident in dealing with both levels of experience and seeing them in a relationship that is proper to human life. It gives us confidence that we don't have to constantly agonize over the mind-bending games of philosophers who wish to attack the reliability of the senses and the possibility of knowledge -- with the goal of making you see things the way they want you to see them!

Quote from Lucretius Book 1 - [102]

You yourself sometime vanquished by the fearsome threats of the seer’s sayings, will seek to desert from us. Nay indeed, how many a dream may they even now conjure up before you, which might avail to overthrow your schemes of life, and confound in fear all your fortunes.