1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
Forum

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
  2. Wiki
  3. Forum
  4. Latest
  5. Podcast
  6. Texts
  7. Gallery
  8. Calendar
  9. Other
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Cassius
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Posts by Cassius

Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • 1
  • 625
  • 626
  • 627
  • 642
  • Draft Your Own Personal Outline of Epicurean Philosophy

    • Cassius
    • January 16, 2018 at 11:09 PM

    Thank you Brett! I very much appreciate it as that will help get the ball rolling! When you do, please start a new thread in this forum, as that is the pattern I think will work best - If everyone has their own thread. If you run into any difficulties doing it, please let me know. I think the post editor even allows outlines - using the LIST command at top right of the menu bar.

    Just as a test here's an example of using the editor here. Seems to work well! I am thinking that the thing for people to do is start their own thread, then compose their own version of something like this - starting basic and then expanding. A format like this (starting basic, like Jefferson's) will be especially helpful for people who focus only on the ethics, and really haven't thought about how the physics and the epistemology relate to the whole:

    1. Nature / Physics
      1. Nothing but matter and void
      2. Nothing comes to nothing or goes to nothing
    2. Knowledge /Truth
      1. The senses are reliable witnesses
    3. Ethics / How to live
      1. Pleasure is the goal of life
      2. The Virtues are tools for the achievement of pleasure
  • Agenda of the 8th Panhellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy, February 10-11, 2018, Cultural Center of Pallini, Athens

    • Cassius
    • January 16, 2018 at 9:33 PM

    http://epicuros.gr/pages/en.htm

    8th Panhellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy

    February 10-11, 2018, Cultural Center of Pallini, Athens

    Free entrance

    The Symposium is annualy organized, with free entrance, by the Friends of Epicurean Philosophy Garden of Athens and Garden of Thessaloniki under the auspices of the Municipality of Pallini. The Pan-Hellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy takes place every year in February, because Epicurus was born in that month, and always in Pallini, because that particular municipality of modern Athens metropolitan area includes the ancient Athenian demos of Gargettus, from which Epicurus originated.

    Program

    February 10, 2018

    THE PHILOSOPHY OF EPICURUS

    Greetings from the Gardens of Athens, Thessaloniki, Trikala, Chalkis, Imathias (Greece), International Friends of Epicurus

    1. PRINCIPLES OF EPICURUS’ PHILOSOPHY

    Praise of Epicurus by a Roman Epicurean

    Introduction to Epicurean Philosophy

    2. EPICUREAN THERAPY OF PSYCHE

    Epicurean psychotherapy with frank criticism

    Philodemus “On anger”

    Lack of freedom of the dependent person and the epicurean liberation of his mind

    Control of stress and Epicurean philosophy

    Interval: Viewing of Posters

    Music Interval: Greek songs involving Celestial bodies

    3. EPICURUS AND FREEDOM

    Free will in Epicurean philosophy

    Free human being: a course from darkness to light

    “Potentially” (segment of a film by Theodoros Maragos)

    Discussion: “Mental health, freedom and happy living”

    Actual symposium (dining and drinking) in a local tavern with music

    February 11, 2018

    EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY FROM ANTIQUITY TO OUR TIMES

    4. EPICUREAN HISTORY

    Important difference of sage and friendship between Epicurus and Plato

    Focusing of thought into an impression as criterion of truth

    Montaigne and epicurean pleasure

    Reception of Epicurus by Greeks in Vienna during Enlightenment

    Critique by Lenin to Hegel’s critique of Epicurus

    Death in texts of Philodemus and Lucretius

    Interval: Viewing of Posters

    5. EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY AND SOCIETY

    An Epicurean politician

    Epicurus and economic theory

    The Epicurean philosophy as a fence against misinformation

    6. EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY AND ART

    Epicurean philosophy and poetry

    Criteria for Art according to Philodemus

    Artistic photography and Epicurean philosophy

    Discussion: “Socially happy life”

    Modern Texts

    Epicurus in Medicine - “HIPPOCRATIC CORPUS WORK “PRECEPTS”:

    PHILANTROPY AND UTILITY IN MEDICINE” by Christos Yapijakis (2017)
    “Epicurean views on euthanasia (good death)” by Takis Panagiotopoulos (2017)“How the portrait of the Athenian philosopher Epicurus became known to us” by Takis Panagiotopoulos (2017)

    7th Panhellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy

    February 11-12, 2017, Cultural Center of Pallini, Athens:A Report by C.Yapijakis

    For the seventh consecutive year since 2011, more than 400 people from all over Greece, a new record of participants, gathered at the Cultural Center of Pallini in Athens in order to attend the two-day Pan-Hellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy.

    7oS1.jpg

    The 7th Pan-Hellenic Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy was unanimously a great success and took place in a warm friendly atmosphere, despite the cold weather. There were two sessions on the first day and two sessions on the second day of the Symposium with 19 oral presentations, two discussions, 6 poster presentations, as well as three artistic intervals.

    At the opening session of the first day on Saturday, February 11, 2017, the Mayor of Pallini Athanassios Zoutsos said that a website with the Declaration of the Right of Happiness in the European Union has been launched (www. eudaimonia.eu) with information regarding a future campaign of collecting signatures in order to bring the issue to the EU parliament. The initial greetings of representatives from the Greek Gardens were followed by the friendly greetings from Hiram Crespo (International Society of Friends of Epicurus), from Geoff Petersson (Garden of Sydney, Australia), and from Cassius (newepicurean.com, USA).

    Session 1 PRINCIPLES OF EPICURUS PHILOSOPHY started with a hymn to Epicurus written by Lucretius and beautifully recited by actor Giorgos Klonis. Then, the presentations ”Life of Epicurus” by Christina Toumba and “ The philosophy of Epicurus” by Kostas Triantafyllidis covered a broad introduction for those attendants with limited knowledge of Epicurus and his philosophy.

    Session 2 LUCRETIUS AND SCIENCE was dedicated to the 600 years anniversary of the discovery of the manuscript of Lucretius' masterpiece “On the nature of things” (1417-2017), and its influence to natural philosophy and science. All presentations showed the scientific verification of Epicurean concepts. “Lucretius and Physics” covered by Giannis Alexakis who covered among other things the Brownian motion and the uncertainty principle, “Lucretius and Astronomy” by Fiori Metallinou showed the vastness of the universe and multiplicity of worlds, “Lucretius and Biology” by Christos Yapijakis discussed evolution of living organisms by natural selection, neurobiology, laws of genetics and extraterrestrial life, “Lucretius and Psychology” by Anna Pagoropoulou revealed the similarity of Epicurean ethics with cognitive psychotherapy, and “Lucretius and Sociology-Criminology” by Erasmia Bitsika illustrated the crime prevention capability of the Epicurean philosophy.

    The Session was followed by guitar playing by Antonios Erimos of musical pieces “Dust in the wind” (Kansas, USA), “La vita è bella” (Nicola Piovanni, Italy), “Imagine” (John Lennon, UK), “A felicidade” (Antonio Carlos Jobim, Brazil), while at the same time the lyrics translated in Greek were shown.

    Session 3 EUZOIA (GOOD LIFE) AND EUTHANASIA (GOOD DEATH) started with presentation “Epicurean views on euthanasia (good death)” by Takis Panagiotopoulos who discussed Epicurus' death and the Epicurean attitude that a good life leads to a good death. Evangelos Protopapadakis discussed the “Epicurean, Stoic and Kantian views regarding suicide”, while Dimitris Liarmakopoulos spoke about good life without the fear of death. Finally, a live discussion on the matters of good life and good death kept the audience until 10 pm, when it was interrupted so that the Friends of Epicurean Philosophy could participate in an actual symposium with dining, drinking, and dancing in a nearby taverna .

    On Sunday, February 12, 2017, the Symposium started with Session 3 EPICUREAN HISTORY that included two talks, “The Stoic Epictetus against Epicurus” by Babis Patzoglou and “The hetera philosopher Leontion” by Kostas Kalevras.

    Session 4 EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY AND SOCIETY had many very interesting talks. Antonis Bilisis “On education” referred to the importance of introducing the teaching of the Epicurean Canon in Greek high school, so that younger generations be may able to develop a critical way of thinking and approaching reality. Panos Alexandropoulos discussed “Epicurus and Maslow: On needs and desires” showing the similarities between the two thinkers. The American professor Gerald Gutenschwager spoke in Greek regarding “Epicurus and social theory” analysing by an Epicurean point of view the last fifty years of social movements, and focusing on cultural creatives of the last twenty years. “Epicurean view” by Giorgos Kaplanis showed that an advice in an Epicurus' letter might be viewed in different context by different people who do not see the whole picture. Dimitris Altas discussed thoroughly the subject of the “Declaration of happiness in the European Union: conditions and consequences” illustrating that it is of great importance for the future destination of the European Union for the benefit of its people. The Session was followed by an artistic interval in which the Dutchman Francesco Bertels played some selected piano and accordion pieces, while the enthusiastic audience sang along.

    The final Session 5 PRESENT AND FUTURE OF EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY included presentations “Thoughts of the Garden of Athens” by Litsa Pitsikali and “Thoughts of the Garden of Thessaloniki” by Aphrodite Kouroudi. Litsa discussed the proposal of publishing an english book of the best presentations of the 7 Panhellenic Symposia, as well as the vision to organize in 2020 the first International Symposium of Epicurean Philosophy in Athens. Aphrodite mentioned the intended publication of a short version of the Epicurean Canon in an effort to propose its teaching in Greek high school.

    The following discussion stirred the audience of the Symposium about several issues. When someone asked the question why Epicureans are not acting politically to change the dire situation in Greece, the easy answer was that we are doing great many things with open access (conferences, open meetings, books, websites) in order to inform as many people as possible so that they may critically change their mentality. The paradigm of the discovery of Lucretius' poem six hundred years ago was mentioned as a text that changed the course of the Western world. The Epicurean philosophy helped people in ancient times and during the Enlightenment and modern times to make themselves and their environment better.

    From the six poster presentations, that were viewed during the intervals of the Symposium, the audience seemed to discuss more the following: - “Sociobiology and Epicurean altruistic egoism: From selfish gene to human cooperation” by Christos Yapijakis - “The discovery of Lucretius' De rerum natura” by Takis PanagiotopoulosThe ProgramFebruary 11, 2017

    THE PHILOSOPHY OF EPICURUS

    Greetings from the Gardens of Athens, Thessaloniki, and other cities of Greece, International Friends of Epicurus

    1. PRINCIPLES OF EPICURUS’ PHILOSOPHY

    Life of Epicurus

    Lucretius “On the nature of things” (excerpt recitation)

    The philosophy of Epicurus

    2. LUCRETIUS AND SCIENCE (1417-2017)

    Lucretius and Physics

    Lucretius and Astronomy

    Lucretius and Biology

    Lucretius and Psychology

    Lucretius and Sociology - Criminology

    Interval: Viewing of Posters

    Music Anthology by Antonios Erimos (guitar): Dust in the wind (Kansas), La vita e' bella (Nicola Piovani), Imagine (John Lennon), A felicidade (Antonio Carlos Jobim)

    3. EUZOIA (GOOD LIFE) AND EUTHANASIA (GOOD DEATH)

    Epicurean views on euthanasia (good death)

    Philosophical views on euthanasia

    Epicurean euzoia (good life)

    Discussion: “Euzoia (good life) and euthanasia (good death)”

    Actual symposium (dining, drinking, dancing) in a local tavern with music

    February 12, 2017

    EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY FROM ANTIQUITY TO OUR TIMES

    4. EPICUREAN HISTORY

    The Stoic Epictetus against Epicurus

    The hetera philosopher Leontion

    Interval: Viewing of Posters

    Music Anthology by Francesco Bertels: Selected piano works

    5. EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY AND SOCIETY

    On education

    Epicurus and Maslow: On needs and desires

    Epicurus and social theory

    Epicurean view

    Declaration of happiness in the European Union: conditions and consequences

    6. PRESENT AND FUTURE OF THE EPICUREAN PHILOSOPHY

    Thoughts of the Garden of Athens

    Thoughts of the Garden of Thessaloniki

    Discussion: “Present and Future of the Epicurean Philosophy”

    WORLD CONGRESS IN PHILOSOPHY (WCP 2016) “THE PHILOSOPHY OF ARISTOTLE”

    Athens, 9-15 July, 2016

    Aristotle and his influence on later philosophy

    "The influence of Aristotle in Epicurus' modification of atomic physics"

    Christos Yapijakis


  • Draft Your Own Personal Outline of Epicurean Philosophy

    • Cassius
    • January 16, 2018 at 7:57 PM
    2024 Update

    We have had many good discussions stemming from this suggestion to draw personal outlines, but here is one point of clarification: There are two goals of significance - (1) to improve your understanding of your own ideas, and (2) to improve your understanding of Epicurean philosophy. In other words, just as Thomas Jefferson did, you should be able to list out the ideas of Epicurus in a form that shows that you understand them. However that doesn't mean that your list constitutes your personal manifesto of life any more than Jefferson's meant that Jefferson himself always followed every statement in the list. Therefore as you consider adding your outline here, be sure to consider that the first goal out to be to be able to state accurately what Epicurus held before you yourself can decide whether you agree or disagree with him.


    Outlines are important in learning Epicurean philosophy. Epicurus advised in the letter to Herodotus that everyone should be able to reduce the major principles of the philosophy to a simplified outline of the main points. Epicurus wrote:

    "Those who have made some advance in the survey of the entire system ought to fix in their minds under the principal headings an elementary outline of the whole treatment of the subject. For a comprehensive view is often required, the details but seldom. To the former, then—the main heads—we must continually return, and must memorize them so far as to get a valid conception of the facts, as well as the means of discovering all the details exactly when once the general outlines are rightly understood and remembered. It is the privilege of the mature student to make a ready use of his conceptions by referring every one of them to elementary facts and simple terms. For it is impossible to gather up the results of continuous diligent study of the entirety of things unless we can embrace in short formulas and hold in mind all that might have been accurately expressed even to the minutest detail."

    We know that Thomas Jefferson followed this advice because we have the outline he himself included in his letter to William short in 1819. Here it is in Jefferson's own handwriting (link to full text of letter) -

    Selection_067-300x243.jpg

    Outlines, however, must be applied to particular circumstances in order to be useful. We have an interesting example of this in Jefferson's letter to William Short. Jefferson provided to Short his summary of Epicurean philosophy in general principles, but Jefferson also pointed a particular error that Short was committing: Even though Short considered himself to be an Epicurean, Short was misinterpreting the philosophy by thinking that Epicurus advised rest and repose as the goal of living. Jefferson corrected this error - an error still widely committed and spread by commentators today - by advising action to pursue pleasure, rather than repose:

    "I take the liberty of observing that you are not a true disciple of our master Epicurus, in indulging the indolence to which you say you are yielding. One of his canons, you know, was that “that indulgence which prevents a greater pleasure, or produces a greater pain, is to be avoided.” Your love of repose will lead, in its progress, to a suspension of healthy exercise, a relaxation of mind, an indifference to everything around you, and finally to a debility of body, and hebetude of mind, the farthest of all things from the happiness which the well-regulated indulgences of Epicurus ensure; fortitude, you know is one of his four cardinal virtues. That teaches us to meet and surmount difficulties; not to fly from them, like cowards; and to fly, too, in vain, for they will meet and arrest us at every turn of our road. Weigh this matter well; brace yourself up."

    Notice how Jefferson in the same letter described "in-dolence" as "the greatest felicity," while at the same time rebuking Short for pursuing indolence! This is an example of how Epicurean terminology cannot be considered superficially, and must be considered closely if it is to be applied correctly.

    We each therefore need to learn to understand Epicurus thoroughly so that we do not misapply his advice. As an aid in following this path, this special forum group has been set up at EpicureanFriends.com, where you are invited to post your own personal outline as you study Epicurus. As you post, you can then receive comments and suggestions from others that will give you ideas and advice about how you can improve your personal outline.

    The first step in applying Epicurean philosophy is to understand Epicurean philosophy, so you should first start with an outline of your understanding of Epicurus' views.

    Next you can consider your own personal application. Although Epicurean philosophy has general principles that apply to everyone, Epicurus also emphasized the reality of the individual context in which we must apply the general principles. A good way to proceed in applying Epicurean principles is to outline your own application. Each person has their own context of concerns and spheres of action in which to consider how to pursue pleasure and avoid pain. The details of each individual outline will therefore vary according to those circumstances. Your detailed personal outline will eventually be too private to post, but general outlines can be included here for public discussion.

    Here is an example of the variety you can expect:

    Some people are already sufficiently confirmed in their own understanding of the nature of the universe that it is appropriate for them to stop (at least at first) with a broad conclusion, such as:

    "Nature: The universe operates on Natural principles, and is not influenced by supernatural forces."

    Others, however, will want to outline the study of the universe (physics) in much more detail so that they can understand, and hold with confidence, the reasons why this conclusion (the universe operates on natural / non-supernatural principles) is true.

    Most, in all likelihood, are somewhere in between, and they need to outline the fundamentals of how nothing exists except matter and void, that nothing is ever created from or destroyed to nothing, and similar observations that underlay the fundamental conclusion that the universe is natural.

    Here are a few suggestions for posting your first outline:

    1. Keep it simple. Don't try to cover every aspect of Epicurean philosophy in the first outline. Make sure to cover the main points first.

    2. Although you want to keep the outline simple, you also want to cover the three major branches of Epicurean philosophy: (1) The nature of the universe, (2) The nature of knowledge, and (3) The nature of how to live.

    3. Don't delete your first outline post, but copy it over into new posts and make the changes there. That way you can follow the progression of your thoughts as you refine your understanding.

    The best thing to do is go ahead and post your outline even if you think it is incomplete. A major benefit of this exercise is thinking through the process, and others can make suggestions for additions or changes as you go through the drafting process. You will no doubt find yourself redrafting over and over as you apply the general rules to your particular situation.

    Remember: copying someone else's outline and adopting it as yours does nothing to advance your understanding of Epicurean philosophy or how it should be applied in your life. You may think that someone else has already developed the ultimate Epicurean outline, and think that it is sufficient to adopt it for yourself. A full understanding requires that you can state the principles yourself and explain why each of them is true and important.

    Here's a good example of the pitfall of copying without understanding:

    One of the most well-known outlines of Epicurean philosophy is the "Tetrapharmakon": (1) Don't fear God, (2) Don't fear death, (3) What's good is easy to get, and (4) What's bad is easy to avoid.

    This is a very easy to remember and concise statement of certain aspects of the first four principal doctrines. However if you do not understand the reasoning behind it, you can easily become discouraged, dismayed, and completely turned off from Epicurean philosophy. Many people reading the Tetrapharmakon immediately think to themselves: "Why *shouldn't* I fear god? Why shouldn't I fear death? I don't find that what is good is easy to get and I certainly don't find that what is bad is easy to avoid!" These people dismiss Epicurus as just another ivory-tower academic, and they miss his true insights completely.

    Only someone who is familiar enough with Epicurean philosophy to understand the reasoning behind the Tetrapharmakon can use it appropriately. It takes study to understand Epicurus' reasoning that gods are not to be feared because such "divinity" as may exist is perfect and does not interfere with mortals. It takes study to understand Epicurus' reasoning that death is not to be feared because there is no consciousness after death. It takes study to understand the reasoning behind "the good" being easy to get, "the bad" being easy to involved" and why the issue of "limits" is relevant to the question at all.

    Absent study into the reasoning of Epicurus, a too-brief summary can seem trite and off-putting. It is therefore necessary for each student to build up - step by step - their own understanding of Epicurean philosophy. Only then can they construct in their own context an appropriate outline that reflects their own understanding and assists them in applying Epicurean principles to their own lives.

    This is a new project and we will be working out many kinks as we go along. However the process of working together with other student of Epicurean philosophy to produce an outline most suitable for yourself should be a beneficial process to everyone involved. Get get started as soon as you can at www. Epicurean friends.com.

    TO GET STARTED: In the list of forums you see above at the top of this page (Epicureanfriends.com / Forum / General Discussion & News / Personal Outlines of Epicurean Philosophy). Click on Personal Outlines of Epicurean Philosophy and select CREATE THREAD. Then just start typing your outline and any descriptions / explanations / or requests for suggestions!

  • Discussion Group At Discordapp.com

    • Cassius
    • January 16, 2018 at 9:20 AM

    https://discord.gg/mdQY8WW

    Images

    • DiscordApp Address.jpg
      • 90.14 kB
      • 897 × 551
      • 12
  • More on "Simple Pleasures"

    • Cassius
    • January 16, 2018 at 7:56 AM

    It is an example how good debate really contributes toward sharpening our thoughts on things.

  • Never Confuse Column A and Column B

    • Cassius
    • January 16, 2018 at 7:45 AM

    I started this graphic with the intent of having Column A be "Pleasure" and Column "B" be friendship, prudence, and a list of the "virtues." However in reading the Letter to Menoeceus closely, that is not how Epicurus summarizes his own philosophy of life.

  • More on "Simple Pleasures"

    • Cassius
    • January 15, 2018 at 8:33 PM

    Cassius AmicusGroup Admin Ross if you agree that Pleasure is the only thing desirable in and of itself, and that the only reason for anything to be choiceworthy (including friendship, wisdom, prudence or any other "virtue") is because of the pleasure that is brought from it (including the avoidance of unnecessary pain), then we are agreed on the major point of discussion.

    As to the minor point that you believe you should limit yourself only to "modest pleasures" I think you are misreading Epicurus and limiting your life unnecessarily. I believe that advocacy of that position in a group devoted to promoting the study of Epicurean philosophy should never go unchallenged due to the error it would cause others to follow if accepted. Having made that point again, however, I move on and wish you well.

    The point of a discussion group is to discuss, and we've done that in this thread, so there are certainly no hard feelings or ill wishes on my side of this conversation.1

    Manage

    Like
    · Reply · 1h

    Ross Ragsdale
    Ross Ragsdale I just didn’t want to flood the feed with more comments. If that’s fine I’m game 1f642.png?.

    I don’t feel we’re preaching self-denial or “monkish” virtues in advocating what is described in the letter to menoeceus, which is what I believe you fear the most. We still enjoy ourselves, but we use prudence to determine which pleasures are worth our time and which pains are worth enduring.

    Let’s take sex and exercise as examples. Sex for the most part is pleasurable. Sex with a condom is less pleasurable (although some may disagree, I’d wonder if they were using the condom correctly if they actually thought that the physical sensation felt more pleasurable). If a college student hooks up with someone and they aren’t sure whether or not the other person has an sti, or they aren’t sure that the other person uses birth control, the sage or wise man would use contraception even though it’s less pleasurable at the moment, it’s better to use one to avoid future pains such as unplanned pregnancies or stis. We pick the less pleasurable activity to avoid pain. Some may just avoid sex altogether if they’re that worried about the other participant’s/s’ health.

    Now for exercise—when you’re out of shape it hurts to exercise. Literally mostly painful sensations (my necessary evil is 30 min of cardio most days). Cardio however, is one of the best ways to preserve and promote one’s physical health. The painful sensations at the moment in the end lead to a more pleasant state of being and sensation, assuming that the person in question is using an adequate understanding of anatomy and mechanics. It results in more pleasure because they’re physically healthier, better blood pressure, less preventable diseases, etc. If this state isn’t pleasurable, then it at least a consistent way to avoid pain.

    I don’t see how that’s a misreading, and I don’t see how that’s a minor point? It is a very important distinction to make. The only time a pleasure would not be considered choice worthy is if it lead to a greater pain (e.g. refraining from contraception or drinking in excess to the point of nausea/vomiting, or a bad hangover the next day). Could you please point me to any of the letters or works written by Epicurus that disagree with this analysis?
    Manage

    Like
    · Reply · 52m · Edited

    Cassius Amicus
    Cassius Amicus Ross I have absolutely no problem with what you wrote in this last paragraph, and I certainly have no problem with the letter to Menoeceus. I am only replying to your specific statement earlier: "Because of the situation in which we find ourselves, heaven filled with only stars rather than involved gods, our best chance of living the good life, a life of modest pleasure and ataraxia, we need friendship and practical wisdom, aka. prudence."

    You very specifically stated that "the good life" is "a life of modest pleasure and ataraxia." A statement defining the good life must always be scrutinized because all else follows from what one defines as the ultimate good. And the ultimate good is not "modest pleasure" but "pleasure." I gather that you think this is an unimportant distinction, and I agree with you that Epicurus tells people to choose their pleasures carefully. But his philosophy is not built on choosing "modest pleasures" as the definition of the goal, because that is not the goal. Epicurus says so specifically in the letter to Menoecus ("Again, we regard independence of outward things as a great good, not so as in all cases to use little, but so as to be contented with little if we have not much, being honestly persuaded that they have the sweetest enjoyment of luxury who stand least in need of it. ... To habituate one's self, therefore, to simple and inexpensive diet supplies all that is needful for health, and enables a man to meet the necessary requirements of life without shrinking, and it places us in a better condition when we approach at intervals a costly fare and renders us fearless of fortune.")

    Epicurus makes the same point with blinding clarity in VS63: "There is also a limit in simple living, and he who fails to understand this falls into an error as great as that of the man who gives way to extravagance." There is simply no way to square this statement with a rule to "only pursue modest pleasures" - but there is no contradiction when one realizes that when "pleasure" is the goal, then whether the particular pleasure to pursue is modest or luxurious is going to be determined under the circumstances then and there existing to the person. When appropriate we enjoy "simple" pleasures, but when appropriate we enjoy luxury, just as Epicurus says (in why we are in a better position to enjoy luxury when it is available.)

    I think some people see exactly what I am saying without further explanation, but some people take exception to this as if I am suggesting that simplicity is bad, or that pursuing luxury is good. I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that one of the prime, continuing, tempting, and most common arguments against Epicurean philosophy is suggesting that there is something besides PLEASURE that is the goal of life. The people who advocate "virtue" as the goal frequently begin by suggesting that certain types of pleasure are more to be preferred than others because they are more worthy, or more noble, or more virtuous, or more *something.* And the most frequently suggested substitute for "pleasure" is "simple pleasures" or "modest pleasures."

    But there is nothing in Epicurean philosophy that says a "simple pleasure" is more to be preferred than any other kind of pleasure except for ONE factor: That factor is that in many cases (but not all), more complex pleasures entail greater pain in acquisition or in result than the pleasure is worth. That is why we sometimes choose pain, or sometimes defer an immediate pleasure. Since pleasure and pain are inverse, the problem (and the ONLY problem) with complex pleasures is that they frequently cancel out the pleasure they bring (or worse) due to the pain they bring. The point here is that the choice is still measured in NET pleasure/ pain, not in whether the activity is "simple" or "complex."

    Modifiers on the word "Pleasure" as the goal of life were not generally used as far as I know by Epicurus or Lucretius, The reason modifiers were not used is clear: Epicurean philosophy is ultimately practical and the furthest thing from idealism. In an atomist universe with human free will it is impossible to say that a certain course of conduct is ALWAYS going to lead to such and such a conclusion. We cannot even say that Metrodorus MUST be either alive or dead tomorrow. The only thing we can say as a rule about our choices is that we should seek pleasure and avoid pain. Often simple pleasures are the better choice, and as Epicurus said it is better to acclimate oneself to living within one's means so as to be more likely to be independent. But on other days luxuries are easily within reach, and it is natural and proper to enjoy them when we can do so without undue cost, again just as Epicurus said, especially since we have no concern about not having those luxuries tomorrow.

    That's why defining the goal of life to be "modest pleasure" is as much an error as defining the goal of life as "immediate pleasure" or "luxurious pleasure" or "friendship" or "music" or "art" or any other single "type" of pleasure. "There is also a limit in simple living, and he who fails to understand this falls into an error as great as that of the man who gives way to extravagance."

  • Best translation of DRN

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2018 at 11:20 AM

    Brett. Martin Ferguson Smith published by Hackett is the most current and scholarly. IMA of you want a poetic version Humphries "The Way Things Are" is best. The free one that is most likely to be literal and trustworthy is Munro. Bailey is free and more recent than Munro and probably easier to read but Bailey was no friend of Epicurus. Thats the state of affairs as I see it. I have pdfs of the free versions linked at www. http://Newepicurean.com/library

  • The Difference Between Happiness and Pleasure

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2018 at 10:40 AM

    Hiram I looked at your page - is that a QUOTE from Lampe, or your summary. If a quote would be good to keep this for regular use.

    And if not a quote, STILL good for regular use! ;)

  • The Difference Between Happiness and Pleasure

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2018 at 10:39 AM

    That is a GREAT sentence: Pleasure is an instance, happiness is a collection of pleasures, and as such happiness is therefore an abstraction, a platonized alternative to the real experience of pleasure.


    That's exactly why all this causes so much debate - there are 1000 different definitions of happiness, but pleasure needs no explanation.

  • Weekly Discussion Of Epicurean Texts

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2018 at 9:33 AM

    Yes the more I think about it, I am thinking Sunday too. Saturday is probably worst all around; maybe Thursday would work as well.

  • Weekly Discussion Of Epicurean Texts

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2018 at 9:15 AM

    Brett what day of the week is likely to work best. Saturday? Sunday? Or a weekday?

  • A Word To The Wise About Arguments

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2018 at 9:14 AM

    I agree Eric, that that should be the rule in most situations. Some venues require more direct action, as a person who is "trolling" a particular site ends up being banned after a while if the argument loses all semblence of being productive. But in general I think that's exactly the right approach.

  • The Difference Between Happiness and Pleasure

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2018 at 9:12 AM

    I think we ought also be careful not to conclude that 'agreeable motion' or "smooth motion" (a popular alternate translation) is simply a reference to "dancing," as sometimes is implied. The Latin text from Perseus is clear and unmysterious - "suavis motionis." Given that from birth to death we as a whole and our individual components of mind and body are constantly in motion (even when we sleep or appear to be at rest) I suggest it's likely that "smooth motion" is a wide term that could also encompass all our mental and physical experiences. As such, "smooth motion" gives us insight into the use of words implying "tranquility" and "absence of disturbance." We're never really at rest; we're always experiencing pleasures and pains, what we want is for those experiences to be experienced "smoothly." Nothing mysterious or anti-feeling or anti-emotion in any of this; in fact just the opposite: clear, ordinary, understandable feelings of pleasure experienced deeply and smoothly.

    [41] Quid tergiversamur, Epicure, nec fatemur eam nos dicere voluptatem, quam tu idem, cum os perfricuisti, soles dicere? sunt haec tua verba necne? in eo quidem libro, qui continet1 omnem disciplinam tuam,—fungar enim iam interpretis munere, ne quis me putet fingere—dicis haec: “nec equidem habeo, quod intellegam bonum illud, detrahens eas voluptates quae sapore percipiuntur, detrahens eas quae rebus percipiuntur veneriis, detrahens2 eas quae auditu e3 cantibus, detrahens eas etiam quae ex formis percipiuntur oculis4 suavis motiones, sive quae aliae voluptates in toto homine gignuntur quolibet5 sensu. nec vero ita dici potest, mentis laetitiam solam esse in bonis. laetantem enim mentem ita novi: spe eorum omnium, quae supra dixi, fore6 ut natura is7 potiens dolore careat.”

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…%3Asection%3D41

  • The Difference Between Happiness and Pleasure

    • Cassius
    • January 14, 2018 at 8:19 AM

    This is what I posted to the Facebook page:

    Don't accept ambiguities and "nothing but words" as the definition of Pleasure. "Pleasure" isn't a word game, but a wide term that includes all the mental and physical experiences we all feel it includes. Here is Epicurus stating that exact point: "I have often inquired of those who have been called wise men what would be the remaining good if they should exclude from consideration all these pleasures [pleasures which are perceived by taste, or from what depends on hearing music, or abstracted from ideas raised by external objects visible to the eye, or by agreeable motions, or from those other pleasures which are perceived by the whole man by means of any of his senses], unless they meant to give us nothing but words. I could never learn anything from them; and unless they choose that all virtue and wisdom should vanish and come to nothing, they must say with me that the only road to happiness lies through those pleasures which I mentioned above.”

    These are reliable quotes directly from Epicurus himself, according to Cicero, as recorded in Tusculan Disputations. Check for yourself the full text here: http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924…arch/translator

    Here is a text version of the wider passage from Cicero's Tusculan Disputations:

    [Addressed to Epicurus]: This is what you say in that book which contains all the doctrine of your school; for I will perform on this occasion the office of a translator, lest any one should imagine that I am inventing anything. Thus you speak: “Nor can I form any notion of the chief good, abstracted from those pleasures which are perceived by taste, or from what depends on hearing music, or abstracted from ideas raised by external objects visible to the eye, or by agreeable motions, or from those other pleasures which are perceived by the whole man by means of any of his senses; nor can it possibly be said that the pleasures of the mind are excited only by what is good, for I have perceived men’s minds to be pleased with the hopes of enjoying those things which I mentioned above, and with the idea that it should enjoy them without any interruption from pain.” And these are his exact words, so that any one may understand what were the pleasures with which Epicurus was acquainted. Then he speaks thus, a little lower down: “I have often inquired of those who have been called wise men what would be the remaining good if they should exclude from consideration all these pleasures, unless they meant to give us nothing but words. I could never learn anything from them; and unless they choose that all virtue and wisdom should vanish and come to nothing, they must say with me that the only road to happiness lies through those pleasures which I mentioned above.” What follows is much the same, and his whole book on the chief good everywhere abounds with the same opinions

  • Weekly Discussion Of Epicurean Texts

    • Cassius
    • January 13, 2018 at 10:41 PM

    After receiving comment I have modified this to be Weekly, with an end of week discussion on Saturday (picked at random; subject to change.)

  • A Word To The Wise About Arguments

    • Cassius
    • January 13, 2018 at 9:45 PM

    A graphic to illustrate an absurdibity, followed by some wise words placed into the mouth of Epicurus by Frances Wright, in chapter eight of "A Few Days In Athens:

    Epicurus: "Explanation always approaches or widens the differences between friends.”


    Theon: “Yes, but we also entered into argument.”

    Epicurus: “Dangerous ground that, to be sure. And your fight, of course, ended in a drawn battle.”

    Theon: “You pay me more than a merited compliment, in concluding that to be a thing of course.”

    Epicurus: “Nay, your pardon! I pay you any thing but a compliment. It is not that I conclude your rhetoric and your logic equal, but your obstinacy and your vanity.”

    Theon: “Do you know, I don’t think myself either obstinate or vain,” said Theon, smiling.

    Epicurus: “Had I supposed you did, I might not have seen occasion to give you the information.” ... Well, and now tell me, was it not a drawn battle?”

    Theon: “I confess it was. At least, we neither of us convinced the other.”

    Epicurus: “My son, it would have added one more to the seven wonders if you had. I incline to doubt, if two men, in the course of an olympiad, enter on an argument from the honest and single desire of coming at the truth, or if, in the course of a century, one man comes from an argument convinced by his opponent.”

    Frances Wright - A Few Days In Athens

  • The Difference Between Happiness and Pleasure

    • Cassius
    • January 13, 2018 at 9:02 PM

    Exactly Brett. THAT is why there are no hard and fast examples listed in the text. In many cases, what at one moment is a desirable choice is at the next moment deadly, and that is as it has to be since there is no master supernatural force coordinating events., and events are constantly changing.


    When I was in school I was under the spell of Cicero's personal Platonic-inspired viewpoints, and back then i first ran into a well known passage in Cicero's "Republic" about TRUE LAW: (link to my post on this)

    “True law is right reason in agreement with nature; it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrong-doing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, although neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal a part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by Senate or People, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for He is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly called punishment .” . .” — Marcus Tullius Cicero, Republic, The Laws, 59 – 47 B.C.

    I used to swear by this passage, and now I see it is **completely wrong.** ;)

    That's why the PD's on Justice read as they do - there is no ONE SIZE FITS ALL set of ethical standards that are higher than the practical guidance of pleasure and pain under the circumstances then and there existing. People don't seem to talk much about those last 10 PDs and I think that is why.

    People are nowadays (some of them anyway) used to the idea that in questions of personal discrection and morality that decisions have to be evaluated by circumstances. But that applies not only to whether you like vanilla vs chocolate, and whether the first scoop is good and the 200th at one sitting kills you, it applies to every question of justice and social organization as well. That's a tough thing to accept, but Epicurus followed it through to the conclusion that is logical.

    Everyone has their pet political and moral issues, and I do too, but for purposes of promoting Epicurean philosophy I think it's necessary to see that there's no "one size fits all" in any of these questions other than that each person is programmed by nature to make their own calculation of pleasure and pain, and we all have to realize that and act accordingly.

  • The Difference Between Happiness and Pleasure

    • Cassius
    • January 13, 2018 at 8:13 PM

    Absolutely! Brett have you read the extended narrative by Torquatus in support of Epicurus in Cicero's ON ENDS? You may not have got to that yet. This point is explained there, and of course in Epicurus' letter to Menoeceus:

    Torquatus:

    “On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of the pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue. Equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains.”


    And of course the letter to Menoeceus:

    And since pleasure is the first good and natural to us, for this very reason we do not choose every pleasure, but sometimes we pass over many pleasures, when greater discomfort accrues to us as the result of them: and similarly we think many pains better than pleasures, since a greater pleasure comes to us when we have endured pains for a long time. Every pleasure then because of its natural kinship to us is good, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen: even as every pain also is an evil, yet not all are always of a nature to be avoided. Yet by a scale of comparison and by the consideration of advantages and disadvantages we must form our judgment on all these matters. For the good on certain occasions we treat as bad, and conversely the bad as good.


    Your calculation tradeoff is exactly right IMO.

    Also as to "Sure, I didn't NEED to undertake this enterprise, certainly not a necessary or really natural need, but it was something that i loved doing and added pleasure to my life.."

    That is the other question I find myself often debating on the forum, the meaning of "natural and necessary." That also is addressed in Torquatus, but people still argue that the rule is that ONLY necessary desires (which by definition would be natural) should be pursued.

    I think your answer is absolutely the correct one, and that's my position, but this is like "absence of pain" that you have to look at the big picture and not "autisticly" apply a passage out of context. I argue the good evidence comes from the fact that passages that discuss natural and necessary never explicitly say necessary only, and they never list any examples (if Epicurus had said "drink water and eat bread only!" that would defeat our point, but he never said that). Further in the letter to Menoeceus Epicurus explicitly explained that the point of living simply is to be independent, and that luxury can be ok if we aren't dependent on it. We also have Torquatus saying:

    “Pleasure and pain moreover supply the motives of pleasure and of the principles of desire and of avoidance, and the springs of conduct generally. This being so, it clearly follows that actions are right and praiseworthy only as being a means to the attainment of a life of pleasure. But that which is not itself a means to anything else, but to which all else is a means, is what the Greeks term the Telos, the highest, ultimate or final Good. It must therefore be admitted that the Chief Good is to live agreeably."

    And:

    “Here is indeed a royal road to happiness -- open, simple, and direct! For clearly man can have no greater good than complete freedom from pain and sorrow coupled with the enjoyment of the highest bodily and mental pleasures. --- NOTE THE "COUPLED" -- he is saying that the two are different, and that simply stating "absence of pain" does not define the other completely

    And there are many other arguments.... but even with these I think the position you are taking is clearly the correct one.

  • The Difference Between Happiness and Pleasure

    • Cassius
    • January 13, 2018 at 7:01 PM

    And Brett thank you for taking the time to put this thread in a perfect location in the forum! ;)

  • 1
  • 625
  • 626
  • 627
  • 642

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources 20

      • Like 1
      • Cassius
      • April 1, 2022 at 5:36 PM
      • Philodemus On Anger
      • Cassius
      • July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
    2. Replies
      20
      Views
      6.6k
      20
    3. Kalosyni

      July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
    1. Mocking Epithets 3

      • Like 3
      • Bryan
      • July 4, 2025 at 3:01 PM
      • Comparing Epicurus With Other Philosophers - General Discussion
      • Bryan
      • July 6, 2025 at 9:47 PM
    2. Replies
      3
      Views
      306
      3
    3. Bryan

      July 6, 2025 at 9:47 PM
    1. Best Lucretius translation? 12

      • Like 1
      • Rolf
      • June 19, 2025 at 8:40 AM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Rolf
      • July 1, 2025 at 1:59 PM
    2. Replies
      12
      Views
      889
      12
    3. Eikadistes

      July 1, 2025 at 1:59 PM
    1. The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura 4

      • Thanks 1
      • Kalosyni
      • June 12, 2025 at 12:03 PM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Kalosyni
      • June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      855
      4
    3. Godfrey

      June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    1. New Blog Post From Elli - " Fanaticism and the Danger of Dogmatism in Political and Religious Thought: An Epicurean Reading"

      • Like 3
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
      • Epicurus vs Abraham (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      2k

Latest Posts

  • Epicurus And The Dylan Thomas Poem - "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night"

    Adrastus July 9, 2025 at 3:42 AM
  • Epicurus' Prolepsis vs Heraclitus' Flux

    Martin July 9, 2025 at 1:56 AM
  • Epicurus and the Pleasure of the Stomach

    Don July 8, 2025 at 9:53 PM
  • Happy Birthday General Thread

    Eikadistes July 8, 2025 at 4:01 PM
  • Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources

    Kalosyni July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
  • Welcome Dlippman!

    sanantoniogarden July 7, 2025 at 6:36 PM
  • July 7, 2025 First Monday Zoom Discussion 8pm ET - Agenda & Topic of discussion

    Don July 7, 2025 at 5:57 PM
  • News And Announcements Box Added To Front Page

    Cassius July 7, 2025 at 10:32 AM
  • "Apollodorus of Athens"

    Bryan July 6, 2025 at 10:10 PM
  • Mocking Epithets

    Bryan July 6, 2025 at 9:47 PM

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design
  • Everywhere
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options
foo