Posts by Cassius

Very good conversation starter. You've given a good "definition" of self preservation, but we probably need to specifically state what we mean by "a virtue" or "a virtue in Epicurean philosophy" too. Because we have the overarching principle that pleasure is the guide to everything, so nothing can be virtuous if it does not promote pleasure (which I think we can consider to include within "promoting pleasure" the subset of activities included in "avoiding pain").

So keeping in mind that the goal is always pleasure, we can't say that self-preservation is ALWAYS what the Epicurean will pursue (which is probably a way to consider a "virtue"?) because we know that Epicurus said that on occasion one will die for a friend, and there is the reference in Torquatus that we will sometime choose to leave the theatre when the play ceases to please us.

But there are the references that say "life is desirable" (Menoeceus) and also the statement that the man is of little account who has many reasons to end his life (I always forget the cite for that. Anyone?) And there is the PD to the effect that preservation of one's safety from others is a natural good.

So in GENERAL self-preservation would be the chosen course, but just like everything else other than "pleasure" itself, there are definitely going to be exceptions.

How's that for a start?

Can you imagine any admirable figure in a Greek or Roman mythological story staking his or her position on the affirmation: "All I want in life is absence of pain!" Maybe such a character did exist, but it would almost certainly have been considered to be a pitiful one, rather than serving as a role model for something that is desirable or to be emulated.

And yet we are supposed to believe that Epicurean Philosophy swept the Greco Roman world proclaiming just that as its goal for the ideal life!

If that is what the public who were attracted to Epicurus thought he was advocating, Epicurus would have been laughed out of town, not held up as a virtual savior and "god" himself.

The sad and irritating thing is that the joke is on those who are foolish enough to believe that nonsense. All this "confusion" is not an innocent mistake.

Edit: Elli This might be an argument worth re-using in the future. Are you aware if any figure in Greek or Roman mythology who is identified as pursuing "absence of pain" as their goal for existence? Did not the ancients embody their ideals in their mythology? Is the absence of enshrining such an ideal in a notable figure not evidence that they did not consider such a goal admirable, or even conceivable?

Note: This thread orginated in Charles' thread on Handel, but is being split off to avoid hijacking that topic: Epicurean-esque Music? A Quick Look at Act 1 of George Friedrich Handel's "Acis & Galatea"

Wow no wonder it sounded so good if you did all that! I am still only learning myself.

Quote from Kyle

> was thinking about making the script do this for you if you specify the chunks so you don't have to run the python script for each chunk.

that would be great but how would it know how to match them? Name the text and mp3 chunks similarly?

Charles do you know how to use the filtering / noise reduction options? I am only beginning to learn them. You voice comes over well during the Skype sessions.

Also, if anyone has any "audacity" / filtering or recording tips, please chime in. It is possible that if I had run this through a "compression" filter that there might not be quite so much "echo" effect -- actually I am not sure I know how to describe it -- I bet others have a word for it. Joshua in general the recording quality is excellent. What type of microphone were you using. Were you using a headset?

That is absolutely the key Godfrey. So would I and I think most anyone would. Also, most normal young people who are new to the philosophy are going to sense this and immediately reject anyone who advises this.

Yes I noticed that Kyle. I am also wondering if I can just break down the audio into separate files, and process it separately by "chunks" and give the video a chance to catch up that way.

That's one advantage of the computer-read voice -- it reads at constant speed.

Another thing I want to figure out is how to start the opening location on the first screen lower on the page at the beginning , as I am thinking that might help as well.

Joshua has done some great reading for this video!

Please thank Joshua for the time he invested in this, and let's also discuss something that might help as we make more of these in the future:

In this reading from the opening of Lucretius Book 1, Joshua uses three distinct voices. I'm calling then "normal," "audiobook," and "dramatic/Shakespearean."

We frequently find that some people like the dramatic voice for short periods, but find it tiring over time. Each version has advantages in terms of clarity and emphasis. As we work to produce more and longer videos, please let us know in which voice you think you would most enjoy listening to longer selections from Lucretius.

So please "vote" and also "comment" to let us know your thoughts:

Unfortunately some people are not going to like the initial advice, the foundations of which are things like giving up false ideas of life after death, giving up false religion, giving up false ideals of "virtue," giving up their affection for thinking of themselves as "rational above all," giving up toxic relationships that they think they have a duty to continue, and fully embracing that pleasure is the goal of life.

All of these will often be painful initially, even though they are the most productive of pleasure both over time and in "intensity."

Quote from wynnho

this subject is what I came to this site for...practical things, not just ideological.

Wynnho's comment is a good reminder that some number of people are going to come to this website hoping to go straight to a "practical tips" section rather than being sure that they understand the philosophy first.

We should probably make a subsection devoted just to people like this, combining some initial advice with explanation of why this approach can at times be counterproductive.

So as the thread continues it would be good to consider discussing both (1) the hazards of this approach (how do you know what will being you happiness if you dont know what happiness is?) and (2) examples of specific *preliminary* advice on practical steps that might be generally applicable.

If we don't orient people quickly to the hazards of for using on tools, we will find ourselves giving esthetic design advice for assistance in arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

But we *can* still give some tips that ought to be immediately useful to most everyone.

i think personally i am more of a calculating type who tries to optimize but sometimes calculates too long for his own good

Also Wynnho, feel fee to post your own thread specific to your quextions and thoughts if you dont see a topic on point.

is your focus on simplicity bringing you happiness, or just more simplicity?

Vaticsn Saying 63: Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is like him who errs through excess.

Wynnho a lot of the popular material on Epicurus has been misreported and one od our goals here is to get things straight by going back to the sources. Many of the commentators are not particularly friendly to Epicurus and that is why i suggest the Norman Dewitt book as the best way to get a good grounding.

And thanks to Charles for suggesting you drop by to set up an account!

Welcome Wynnho! Good to see that you are in Atlanta. Several of us are not too far away, and I hope at some point in the future we can set up some kind of live meeting in Atlanta since that is a central location. Of course if we do you will surely be on the invitation list - maybe even by then you'll be among those doing the inviting.

Anyway we have lots of different backgrounds here and i would say yours is pretty typical. Please make yourself at home for as little or as much time as you have to spare.

The best way you can help, and get the most out of being here, is to both respond to threads and also make new threads of your own. You can look for an appropriate subforum, or just put new posts in the "General Discussion" forum, and we'll eventually move them to a better location.

And be sure to let us know if we can do anything to make your stay here more enjoyable.

Quote from Godfrey

It sounds to me like he also laid the foundation for the destruction of the philosophy!

A M E N !!!!

Godfrey is this the "should" to which you refer?

I agree with you. Wilson tends to be very loose with her wording, when she should be referring to Nature, she drops easily into expressing her own view as if everyone would agree with her.

I also think this illustrates why the older terminology of "choosing and avoiding" makes more sense than calling things "evil" or "good." Those words today in English are loaded with implications about virtue or religion that Epicurus would not associate with them. The situation is simply that pleasure is desirable in itself, and pain is undesirable in itself, and there is no need to load those words with connotations that are foreign to the Epicurean perspective

Welcome wynnho ! When you get a chance, please tell us about yourself and your background in Epicurean philosophy. It would be particularly helpful if you could tell us how much background reading you have done in Epicurus, for which purpose we have prepared the following list of core reading.

Thanks for joining us and we look forward to talking with you.

----------------------- Core Reading ---------------------------------

1 The Biography of Epicurus By Diogenes Laertius (Chapter 10). This includes all Epicurus' letters and the Authorized Doctrines. Supplement with the Vatican list of Sayings.

2 "Epicurus And His Philosophy" - Norman DeWitt

3 "On The Nature of Things"- Lucretius

4 Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

5 Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

6 The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

7 "A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

8 Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus (3) Others?

9 Plato's Philebus

10 Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

11 "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially on katastematic and kinetic pleasure.

12 Chance and Natural Law in Epicurean Philosophy - AA Long -

--------------------- Other Books On Epicurus You Have Read --------------------

1.

2.

3.

In response to Godfrey's and Hiram's encouragement to me to post more, let me focus on this first:

Quote from Godfrey

You've created a remarkable amount of valuable content which could add a lot to the discussion

And so did Norman DeWitt, in writing what I think is by far the best book on Epicurus in 100 years. Did he break through in the long term into the academic circles, or is he ignored?

Quote from Hiram

You should pitch your own articles to publications like Partially Examined Life, etc.

And that's part of the same issue. The "mainstream" places of discussion aren't just unaware of the DeWitt / Alternate argument -- they DISAGREE with it -- and if they have their way, they will also SUPPRESS it, which is why it can only arise *outside* and not *within* or even *with the encouragement of* the "mainstream" circles.

I don't think it is very helpful to categorize the issue as a "political" divide unless we also trace the same divide through the "politics" of the last 2000 years. But the big issue is that there is an elitist class (and I am talking about Platonic-style elitism) that has always wanted to control the conversation, and always will want to control the conversation, and they see Epicurus clearly as a threat to their power and their elitism. So my view has been and remains largely that we have to build our own base among the common people on the street who Cicero looked down on, rather than looking to the establishments of the elite.

Now having said that I am sure that there are some good people in Academia, and some in the mainstream platforms, who will be open to the alternative view. In some cases that is going to be because they are surprised that there IS an alternate view, since they don't know there is another view, as they have been so successful in shutting down DeWitt.

And I do want to do what I can to circulate my / our material in much wider circles. But I think Twitter and social media are likely to be more productive than to try to get sanction from the organs of the establishment.

Nevertheless I am up for any avenues that will accept our material!