Posts by Cassius

Here, I think this excerpt from Wiker's "Moral Darwinism" book FAR overstates the case as to Darwin being a "disciple" of Epicurus. Darwin is "the most potent formulation of that philosophy [Epicurus] to date?" That is way overstated.

Do we actually know that Darwin was either an explicit fan of, or quoted, Epicurus? We do know that Nietzsche was at least in certain respects a fan of Epicurus, but that Nietzsche was not a fan of Darwin. I have not read deeply into Darwin but my gut tells me that Nietzsche is right on this, and that Darwin probably does not deserve a lot of study by an Epicurean except to note Darwin's development of theories of nature that are not guided by supernatural beings, which is only one aspect of Epicurus.

Here, I think this FAR overstates the case as to Darwin being a "disciple" of Epicurus. Darwin is "the most potent formulation of that philosophy [Epicurus] to date?" That is way overstated!

Do we actually know that Darwin was either an explicit fan of, or quoted, Epicurus? We do know that Nietzsche was at least in certain respects a fan of Epicurus, but that Nietzsche was not a fan of Darwin. I have not read deeply into Darwin but my gut tells me that Nietzsche is right on this, and that Darwin probably does not deserve a lot of study by an Epicurean except to note Darwin's development of theories of nature that are not guided by supernatural beings, which is only one aspect of Epicurus.

If anyone has comment on this please include it either here or in this separate thread on Darwin.

I will await further info from Daniel before getting a copy of this book.

In the meantime, from the preview I can see the usual problem, and this will likely be a starting point for deconstructing his analysis:

Very interesting find, Daniel!

For some reason this picture doesn't show up in the first post - here it is.

Note that in both of these Epicurus is associated with a jar of some kind. Could that be a reference to the "full jar" analogy that we know of at least from Lucretius book 6 and other places?

Michele can you help us with other details and potential symbolism of these two paintings?

Elli I consider both of these to be pretty good likenesses of Epicurus as a "younger" man -- do you agree?

By no means do they look like that little cherub with the garland on his head that people point to in the School of Athens fresco!

Yes Michele, as Elli indicates --- after she posted her theory two years ago, we got into quite a debate as to whether the Italians knew what Epicurus looked like before the discovery of the Herculaneum busts with his name inscribed.

Can you help us get to the bottom of this?

After all, you are now our resident expert on all things Epicurean in Italy!!!

In a nearby thread the question was raised about who should be considered to be an Epicurean. No one has the authority to give such a list, and probably no one after Epicurus himself, or the last head of the Epicurean school in Athens in the ancient world, ever had that authority. But we ought to give thought to what the key components of the philosophy are, so we can consider how many of them fit the person we're considering labeling as an Epicurean.

My own first question is "Does the person call himself an Epicurean?" Epicurean philosophers have always acknowledged a debt to the person of Epicurus himself as the founder of the school. So if the person doesn't explicitly talk about Epicurus, that is probably a bright line that would eliminate that person from being considered to be a part of the Epicurean school, no matter how many admirable personality traits or interests we can identify in them.

But today, in another context I was asked for my view of the most important points of Epicurean philosophy, and I came up with the list in the graphic below. The way I formulate these points regularly changes, but I think most versions of this list tend to revolve around similar core points that we can find in the Principal Doctrines, Epicurus' letters, and Lucretius. So I *personally* think, and I think that the majority of ancient Epicureans would think, that an Epicurean would agree with most and very probably all of the following points on this graphic.

Remember this is my personal opinion and in no way an "official list!" For discussion purposes only!

Epicurean Philosophy Is A Foundation On Which A Person Sees:

(1) that supernatural religion is not only false but a lie;

(2) that there is no punishment, reward, or life of any kind after death;

(3) that one's life is all one has and is very important, meaning that nihilism is an abomination;

(4) that there are no absolute standards of right and wrong that apply to all people at all times,

(5) that rather than absolute standards, Nature has provided us with the faculty of feeling - pleasure and pain - as the guide by which we should base our decisions on how to live,

(6) that "reason" and "logic" and "virtue" are dependent on the natural faculties, and have no value in themselves apart from those faculties; and

(7) that it is proper to be confident that the Epicurean positions on these issues is correct, and

(8) that through Epicurean philosophy that we can overcome the priests and false philosophers who try to keep the gates of knowledge tightly barred.

A version with numbers for identification:

The proposition is that Epicurus is NOT this figure, which looks nothing whatsoever like the true Epicurus:

But is instead THIS figure, which looks very much more like the correct image of Epicurus:

[This artlcle was posted by Elli in March of 2017. I think Elli is almost surely correct, and this is something of considerable significance. Please let us know your thoughts:]

Raphael's fresco "The School of Athens“ in the Vatican is famous throughout the world, but less well known are the identities of the philosophies shown within it. Aristotle, Socrates, and Plato seem confidently identified, but where are the other leading lights of Greek philosophy, especially Epicurus and Zeno, founders of two of the most popular schools in ancient Greece?

The purpose of this is to discuss theories for identifying the other philosophers shown in the fresco.

From various reports it is believed that Raphael, Botticelli and many other painters of the Renaissance, had studied the Epicurean Lucretius and his famous poem "On the Nature of Things." Theories of "who is who" in the fresco "School of Athens" came from the Vatican and the popes, and not from the painter himself. And these speculations as opinions are reproduced for centuries by various writers and art critics. But let everyone making his speculations, and holding their views and opinions ...

The figure most commonly identified as Epicurus is this one, with the garland on his head:

As mentioned above the title "The School of Athens" was not given by Raphael himself, and the theme of the mural is actually "Philosophy," or "the ancient Greek philosophy" since over the mural, the painter Raphael scored two words «Causarum Cognitio» this means « knowing the causes», a philosophical conclusion from the study of Aristotle's works, “Metaphysics Book I” and “Physics Book II".

Indeed, Plato and Aristotle appear to be the central figures in the scene. However, all the philosophers sought knowledge of first causes. Many of them had lived before Plato and Aristotle, and hardly a third were Athenians. It is assumed that every philosopher is on the picture, however the recognition of all is impossible, for two reasons : firstly because Raphael has not left any description of the persons that he designed, and second because Raphael has designed some of the philosophers based on his imagination. The painter Raphael has combined his imagination with his knowledge and created his own iconography system for painting them. Although Raphael had read something for them, but he had not seen any picture for some of them. For example, Socrates is immediately recognizable in the mural center because we know today, like Raphael then, a pattern of his type, how he looked from busts or statues, while the person that is presumed to be Epicurus is far removed from the standard type as encountered in his busts. The conjecture for Epicurus states that is a child "with a smirk", which is crowned with vine leaves. The same conjecture states that Raphael was inspired by the librarian and Catholic Cardinal of the Vatican Tommaso Inghirami who was known by the nickname "Faedra".

Although we don't have information from Raphael to allow us to be certain, in Epicurus's letter to Herodotus we read his advice on solving mysteries: "And besides we must keep all our investigations in accord with our sensations, and in particular with the immediate apprehensions whether of the mind or of any one of the instruments of judgment, and likewise in accord with the feelings existing in us, in order that we may have indications whereby we may judge both the problem of sense perception and the unseen. " So if we follow this advice to locate the figure of Epicurus and identify the others, we first must start by using our own eyes.

There is considerable controversy as to the identification of busts from the ancient world, but we know that numbers of busts of Epicurus survived. In comparing the bust that we know today is that of Epicurus, we see that the figure to the immediate left of Plato bears a distinct resemblance to Epicurus. This identification is supported by the observation that the grouping with Epicurus seems to be "friendly" one of the trademark features of the Epicurean garden.

VS 78. The noble man is chiefly concerned with wisdom and friendship; of these, the former is a mortal good, the latter an immortal one.

Further the expressions of a number of this group, especially the figure in the foreground with arms folded, seem to be viewing Plato and Aristotle with scepticism. Opposition to Plato and Aristotle was a hallmark of Epicurean philosophy.

Please help us by contributing your thoughts on the identification of Epicurus and other central philosophers from the School of Athens.

The Facebook page devoted to this is here: https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=…&epa=SEARCH_BOX

Thanks to Michele Pinto I see these two paintings of Epicurus by Agostino ScilliI have never before seen!

http://epicuro.org/gli-epicuro-di-agostino-scilla/

The blog post linked here tells about them. That blog post also mentions the Raphael School of Athens, and the representation that is ATTRIBUTED as being Epicurus, but which Elli has shown, is probably not, as there is another character who DOES look very much like Epicurus! As soon as I can find a good link I will post that discussion here in this thread too -- perhaps Elli already has a good link (?()

I totally agree with all in that list, and also in the material you just posted elsewhere Hiram on Epicurean sculpture / artwork. The more we surround ourselves with reminders, the easier it is to stay in focus.

A very concerning aspect of Silicon Valley - and a reason that Epicurean platforms should not depend on Big Tech.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/26/sty…ley-stoics.html

(1) "An ancient Greek school of thought, Stoicism argued that the only real treasures in life were inner virtues, like self-mastery and courage. The Stoics offered tactics to endure pain and pleasure without complaint."

Tactics to ENDURE PLEASURE WITHOUT COMPLAINT???? This writer admits more than he realizes!

At least to my quick reading he does not count Epicureans as among the "friends" of the Stoics.

(2) "Its landing page is adorned with a quote from Cicero, a Roman philosopher-statesman who embraced much of Stoicism’s ethical systems while remaining skeptical of its metaphysics: “I have always been of the opinion that unpopularity earned by doing what is right is not unpopularity at all but glory.”"

Apparently these Stoics have not read Cicero's massive take-down of Stoicism in "On Ends"

(3) Wow - this guy gets a lot right - including that Stoicism is the philosophy of establishmentarian power-lust!

"But tenets of Stoicism — which can be interpreted to argue that the world and its current power structure are correctly set as they are — fit right in."

Also: "Instead, Stoics believed that everything in the universe is already perfect and that things that seem bad or unjust are secretly good underneath. The philosophy is handy if you already believe that the rich are meant to be rich and the poor meant to be poor. The new popularity of Stoicism among the tech crowd is, in my view, strikingly similar to Stoicism’s popularity among the powerful elites of ancient Rome,” Dr. Palmer said. “As Rome took over, it surged in popularity because it was the one system of ethics that worked well for the rich and powerful.”

Also: "The Cicero Institute comes at a time of tension in Silicon Valley, from a person with a complicated history there. Joe Lonsdale, who founded the institute along with his wife, Taylor, is also a founder of Palantir, the data analytics firm long mired in controversy for its work supporting surveillance and predictive policing."

(4) Yes he is right again! Frauds of a feather, flock together! "Elizabeth Holmes, the founder of the disastrous health diagnostics start-up Theranos and star of a new HBO documentary about its collapse, would often cite “Meditations,” by Marcus Aurelius."

(5) Not the writer's issue, but he quotes someone who get's it wrong:

“It’s very interesting to see their sort of sad lethargy,” Dr. Palmer said. “When you’re 37, rich, retired and unhappy, it’s very perplexing.” To her, it makes sense that they then turn to Stoicism. She called Stoicism “a wonderful therapy against grief and the blinders of the rat race.”

Wrong - Stoicism is the guarantee that they will never EMERGE FROM the grief and the blinders of the rat race. And why would they? They are pursuing their goal accurately by mucking around in the grief and the maze!

(6) "“So much of Stoicism is about achieving interior tranquillity,” she said." << And thus we see for the 900th time the danger in failing to think about what "tranqulity" really means --and that the right view is that your life is filled with pleasures, experienced without disturbance. If only these guys would in fact listen to what Cicero said about Epicureans, even if he said it in jest/derision:

Cicero, In Defense of Publius Sestius 10.23: “He {Publius Clodius} praised those most who are said to be above all others the teachers and eulogists of pleasure {the Epicureans}. … He added that these same men were quite right in saying ... that nothing was preferable to a life of tranquility crammed full of pleasures.

(7) To the extent this was intended to refer to Epicurus, it is only partly correct and substantially inaccurate, so it is good that Epicurus was not named: "Other schools of thought during Stoicism’s ancient rise had warned that politics and the pursuit of wealth would lead only to stress and risk, Dr. Palmer said, and some encouraged retiring from active life and even renouncing property. But Stoicism did not."

(8) Maybe Cicero deserves credit for fighting Cataline, but this final quote is only partly right -- ultimately when the time came for action against Caesar, it was not Cicero, or a Stoic, but an Epicurean and a Platonist who collaborated, with the Epicurean at the head at least as much as the Platonist. There is a good article by Sedley on this ("The Ethics of Brutus and Cassius") -

"Of the institute’s mascot, Dr. Palmer said: “They’ve chosen the one who comes out of inaction when there’s a crisis to try to prevent a coup.”

(9) One aspect of the article that may not ring true is the SJW comment, or if it is true, it would need more development. That paragraph really veered off into personality details involving Lonsdale and Thiel which were really not necessary for the thrust of the article. The problem with development of that here in this group would be that we could easily come into conflict with our group rules to stay away from modern politics. I know I am the one who posted this link but we do need to be careful. I did not post on that sentence in the article and that's why. There is much that can be discussed without skirting close to our group rules on politics. We could fill books just talking about the issue which is the subtitle of the article: "Why is ANYONE obsessed with the virtue of suffering?"

(10) I think I have now corrected the gender of my pronouns to recognize that the article was written by Nellie Bowles -- it's almost like *she* had the issues of that we talk about in this group in front of her when she wrote the article. https://talkingbiznews.com/1/ny-times-hir…ternet-culture/

This was posted elsewhere by one of our members here:

I recently bought a copy of Philodemus's On Property Management. I have not read the whole thing yet, and there are a lot of interesting points that might be good for this discussion. For now, though, I'd like to give a short summary of the attitude towards wealth that Philodemus presents so far in what I have read: "The wise man will never be bound by wealth in such a way as to endure, in order to preserve it, toils that are great and are not such as to be exchanged for any quantity of wealth. For what makes its use painless and the enjoyment deriving from it pure must be this, the fact that for sages no heavy care about how it will be possible to preserve it is attached to the possession of wealth, not even when circumstances become most critical."

About a paragraph later, he adds: "As to greater wealth, if it comes in a harmless and easy manner, then it is to be welcomed; but to suffer on account of that very thing should not be tolerated"

OK one more: "the right management of wealth lies in this: in not feeling distressed about what one loses and in not trapping oneself on treadmills because of an obsessive zeal concerning the more and the less."

One of the points he made was that the amount of work required to provide some of the luxuries of wealth take very little extra effort above and beyond what is required to provide for our necessities and they provide enough ease and comfort to make it worth that effort - even if they are, in fact, luxuries. There is no overall prescription in the writing about how much one should own or not and Philodemus refers to both the wealthy and moderate lifestyle. The take-away for me seems to be that the amount of wealth is not what is important so much as the attitude we have towards it. Thus fragment 108 quoted above is meant more as a prescription for a diathesis rather than a prescription for our actual level of wealth that we work towards. Diogenes of Oinoanda was, after all, a wealthy man, was he not?

Thoughts?

We get asked often about daily practices to better apply Epicurean philosophy.

My thought on daily practice is in three areas:

(1) Read and get familiar with the core texts. Many people read the Menoeceus letter and seem to stop. The Herodotus letter is very important, and you should eventually work yourself through Lucretius and Diogenes Laertius and even the fragments of DIogenes of Oinoanda, and also Cicero's Torquatus section of On Ends. You're not going to really understand the philosophy til you go through these yourself and can say "now I see why Lucretius was talking about x, y, and z." it may seem like he is droning on and on about unimportant matters, but you need to see *why* Lucretius / Epicurus thought those areas were important.

(2) Find a place to talk with like-minded friends about Epicurus, preferably locally, but online if necessary. Epicurus specifically advised this to live as a "god among men", and he also advised:

(3) Prepare your own 'outline' of Epicurean thought as you work through it. That specific advice is given in the letter to Herodotus. You don't always need the details of the philosophy, but you regularly need the main points, and you can't internalize what the "main" points are unless you identify them in your own mind and see how they relate to, and arise from, the details.

The slavery example is good to shock people out of complacency and to illustrate that the way we think today is not necessarily the only way to think. We know from PD10 that something one person thinks is monstrous is not bad in itself, but only in its effects, which may vary. But lest we get caught too far into an unproductive debate on slavery or any particular hot-button issue which polarizes people, the most productive path for us is to see that natural and necessary are not an absolute, and ask "how do we apply the natural and necessary desire" analysis to ourselves today?

Epicurus, as recorded in Seneca's letter to Lucilius 22:

Read the letter of Epicurus which appears on this matter; it is addressed to Idomeneus. The writer asks him to hasten as fast as he can, and beat a retreat before some stronger influence comes between and takes from him the liberty to withdraw. But he also adds that one should attempt nothing except at the time when it can be attempted suitably and seasonably. Then, when the long-sought occasion comes, let him be up and doing. Epicurus forbids us to doze when we are meditating escape; he bids us hope for a safe release from even the hardest trials, provided that we are not in too great a hurry before the time, nor too dilatory when the time arrives.

Thomas Jefferson, as recorded in his letter to William Short, October 31, 1818:

I take the liberty of observing that you are not a true disciple of our master Epicurus, in indulging the indolence to which you say you are yielding. One of his canons, you know, was that “that indulgence which prevents a greater pleasure, or produces a greater pain, is to be avoided.” Your love of repose will lead, in its progress, to a suspension of healthy exercise, a relaxation of mind, an indifference to everything around you, and finally to a debility of body, and hebetude of mind, the farthest of all things from the happiness which the well-regulated indulgences of Epicurus ensure; fortitude, you know is one of his four cardinal virtues. That teaches us to meet and surmount difficulties; not to fly from them, like cowards; and to fly, too, in vain, for they will meet and arrest us at every turn of our road. Weigh this matter well; brace yourself up....

The following is a list of citations to Epicurean texts which are relevant to understanding Epicurus' view of justice and relations among both communities and individuals. Emphasis here is on statements which would likely be viewed as controversial and/or impolitic in the modern world, yet must nevertheless be considered if we want to understand the ancient Epicurean mindset:

Epicurus PD10: (As to the invalidty of considering something monstrous if it allows the person involved to successfully live pleasurably) "10. If the things that produce the pleasures of profligate men really freed them from fears of the mind concerning celestial and atmospheric phenomena, the fear of death, and the fear of pain; if, further, they taught them to limit their desires, we should never have any fault to find with such persons, for they would then be filled with pleasures from every source and would never have pain of body or mind, which is what is bad."

Diogenes Laertius: (as to some men being our enemies) "Epicurus used to call ... the Cynics the 'enemies of Greece"

Diogenes Laertius: "He [the wise man] will be more susceptible of emotion than other men: that will be no hindrance to his wisdom. However, not every bodily constitution nor every nationality would permit a man to become wise."

Diogenes Laertius - Will of Epicurus (As to his wealth) And from the revenues made over by me to Amynomachus and Timocrates let them to the best of their power in consultation with Hermarchus make separate provision for the funeral offerings to my father, mother, and brothers, and for the customary celebration of my birthday on the tenth day of Gamelion in each year, and for the meeting of all my School held every month on the twentieth day to commemorate Metrodorus and myself according to the rules now in force. Let them also join in celebrating the day in Poseideon which commemorates my brothers, and likewise the day in Metageitnion which commemorates Polyaenus, as I have done previously.

Diogenes Laertius - Will of Epicurus (As to his owning slaves, and not freeing all at his death) "Of my slaves I manumit Mys, Nicias, Lycon, and I also give Phaedrium her liberty."

Diogenes Laertius- Will of Epicurus (As to his instructing that a child of a member of the school should marry within the school) - "And let Amynomachus and Timocrates take care of Epicurus, the son of Metrodorus, and of the son of Polyaenus, so long as they study and live with Hermarchus. Let them likewise provide for he maintenance of Metrodorus's daughters so long as she is well-ordered and obedient to Hermarchus; and, when she comes of age, give her in marriage to a husband selected by Hermarchus from among the members of the School."

Diogenes Laertius- (As to Epicurus disapproving of communism) - "He further says that Epicurus did not think it right that their property should be held in common, as required by the maxim of Pythagoras about the goods of friends; such a practice in his opinion implied mistrust, and without confidence there is no friendship."

Diogenes of Oinoanda: (as to making generalizations about cultural groups) :

"A clear indication of the complete inability of the gods to prevent wrong-doings is provided by the nations of the Jews and Egyptians, who, as well as being the most superstitious of all peoples, are the vilest of all peoples."

Diogenes of Oinoanda: (as to considering false religion to be a disease coexisting with the idea of love of humanity) "Now, if only one person or two or three or four or five or six or any larger number you choose, sir, provided that it is not very large, were in a bad predicament, I should address them individually and do all in my power to give them the best advice. But, as I have said before, the majority of people suffer from a common disease, as in a plague, with their false notions about things, and their number is increasing (for in mutual emulation they catch the disease from one another, like sheep) moreover, [it is] right to help [also] generations to come (for they too belong to us, though they are still unborn) and, besides, love of humanity prompts us to aid also the foreigners who come here."

Epicurus Letter to Menoeceus: (As to the best life being spent among like-minded friends) "Exercise yourself in these and related precepts day and night, both by yourself and with one who is like-minded; then never, either in waking or in dream, will you be disturbed, but will live as a god among men. For man loses all semblance of mortality by living in the midst of immortal blessings."

Epicurus Doctrines on Justice (following PD10 that there is no absolute standard of right and wrong other than the pleasurable living of the people involved, so that when there is no agreement, there is no concept of justice):

• 32. Those animals which are incapable of making binding agreements with one another not to inflict nor suffer harm are without either justice or injustice; and likewise for those peoples who either could not or would not form binding agreements not to inflict nor suffer harm.
• 33. There never was such a thing as absolute justice, but only agreements made in mutual dealings among men in whatever places at various times providing against the infliction or suffering of harm.
• 34. Injustice is not an evil in itself, but only in consequence of the fear which is associated with the apprehension of being discovered by those appointed to punish such actions.
• 36. In general justice is the same for all, for it is something found mutually beneficial in men's dealings, but in its application to particular places or other circumstances the same thing is not necessarily just for everyone.
• 37. Among the things held to be just by law, whatever is proved to be of advantage in men's dealings has the stamp of justice, whether or not it be the same for all; but if a man makes a law and it does not prove to be mutually advantageous, then this is no longer just. And if what is mutually advantageous varies and only for a time corresponds to our concept of justice, nevertheless for that time it is just for those who do not trouble themselves about empty words, but look simply at the facts.
• 38. Where without any change in circumstances the things held to be just by law are seen not to correspond with the concept of justice in actual practice, such laws are not really just; but wherever the laws have ceased to be advantageous because of a change in circumstances, in that case the laws were for that time just when they were advantageous for the mutual dealings of the citizens, and subsequently ceased to be just when they were no longer advantageous.

(As to excluding from our lives people who cannot coexist with us):

39. The man who best knows how to meet external threats makes into one family all the creatures he can; and those he can not, he at any rate does not treat as aliens; and where he finds even this impossible, he avoids all dealings, and, so far as is advantageous, excludes them from his life.

(As to the desirability of being able to defend ourselves by force from threats against us, and living among people who share our values)

40. Those who possess the power to defend themselves against threats by their neighbors, being thus in possession of the surest guarantee of security, live the most pleasant life with one another; and their enjoyment of the fullest intimacy is such that if one of them dies prematurely, the others do not lament his death as though it called for pity.

Epicurus Letter to Menoeuces: (As to the best life as one being spent among -like-minded friends): "Exercise yourself in these and related precepts day and night, both by yourself and with one who is like-minded; then never, either in waking or in dream, will you be disturbed, but will live as a god among men. For man loses all semblance of mortality by living in the midst of immortal blessings."

Torquatus / Cicero: (As to some men being non-reformable and thus requiring restraint by force: "Yet nevertheless some men indulge without limit their avarice, ambition and love of power, lust, gluttony and those other desires, which ill-gotten gains can never diminish but rather must inflame the more; inasmuch that they appear proper subjects for restraint rather than for reformation."

Torquatus / Cicero: (As to the "safety of our fellow citizens" and defending our country in time of war can be essential to our own wellbeing) "Can you then suppose that those heroic men performed their famous deeds without any motive at all? What their motive was, I will consider later on: for the present I will confidently assert, that if they had a motive for those undoubtedly glorious exploits, that motive was not a love of virtue in and for itself.—He wrested the necklet from his foe.—Yes, and saved himself from death. But he braved great danger.—Yes, before the eyes of an army.—What did he get by it?—Honor and esteem, the strongest guarantees of security in life.—He sentenced his own son to death.—If from no motive, I am sorry to be the descendant of anyone so savage and inhuman; but if his purpose was by inflicting pain upon himself to establish his authority as a commander, and to tighten the reins of discipline during a very serious war by holding over his army the fear of punishment, then his action aimed at ensuring the safety of his fellow citizens, upon which he knew his own depended."

Lucian - "Aristotle the Oracle-Monger" (as to Epicureans confronting false religion) - ""The prosperity of the oracle is perhaps not so wonderful, when one learns what sensible, intelligent questions were in fashion with its votaries. Well, it was war to the knife between him and Epicurus, and no wonder. What fitter enemy for a charlatan who patronized miracles and hated truth, than the thinker who had grasped the nature of things and was in solitary possession of that truth? As for the Platonists, Stoics, Pythagoreans, they were his good friends; he had no quarrel with them. But the unmitigated Epicurus, as he used to call him, could not but be hateful to him, treating all such pretensions as absurd and puerile."

Lucian - "The Death of Peregrine" (as to Epicurean criticism of Christianity) - "It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the 11 Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed. I can tell you, he pretty soon convinced them of his superiority; prophet, elder, ruler of the Synagogue--he was everything at once; expounded their books, commented on them, wrote books himself. They took him for a God, accepted his laws, and declared him their president. The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day,--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. Well, the end of it was that Proteus was arrested and thrown into prison. This was the very thing to lend an air to his favourite arts of clap-trap and wonder-working; he was now a made man. The Christians took it all very seriously: he was no sooner in prison, than they began trying every means to get him out again,--but without success. Everything else that could be done for him they most devoutly did. They thought of nothing else. Orphans and ancient widows might be seen hanging about the prison from break of day. Their officials bribed the gaolers to let them sleep inside with him. Elegant dinners were conveyed in; their sacred writings were read; and our old friend Peregrine (as he was still called in those days) became for them "the modern Socrates." In some of the Asiatic 13 cities, too, the Christian communities put themselves to the expense of sending deputations, with offers of sympathy, assistance, and legal advice. The activity of these people, in dealing with any matter that affects their community, is something extraordinary; they spare no trouble, no expense. Peregrine, all this time, was making quite an income on the strength of his bondage; money came pouring in. You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on trust, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property. Now an adroit, unscrupulous fellow, who has seen the world, has only to get among these simple souls, and his fortune is pretty soon made; he plays with them."

Lucretius Book Four (Bailey) (As to willingness to use coarse / mocking descriptive personal characterizations) "And one man laughs at another, and urges him to appease Venus, since he is wallowing in a base passion, yet often, poor wretch, he cannot see his own ills, far greater than the rest. A black love is called ‘honey-dark’, the foul and filthy ‘unadorned’, the green-eyed ‘Athena’s image’, the wiry and wooden ‘a gazelle’, the squat and dwarfish ‘one of the graces’, ‘all pure delight’, the lumpy and ungainly ‘a wonder’, and ‘full of majesty’. She stammers and cannot speak, ‘she has a lisp’; the dumb is ‘modest’; the fiery, spiteful gossip is ‘a burning torch’. One becomes a ‘slender darling’, when she can scarce live from decline; another half dead with cough is ‘frail’. Then the fat and full-bosomed is ‘Ceres’ self with Bacchus at breast’; the snub-nosed is ‘sister to Silenus, or a Satyr’; the thick-lipped is ‘a living kiss’. More of this sort it were tedious for me to try to tell. But yet let her be fair of face as you will, and from her every limb let the power of Venus issue forth: yet surely there are others too: surely we have lived without her before, surely she does just the same in all things, and we know it, as the ugly, and of herself, poor wretch, reeks of noisome smells, and her maids flee far from her and giggle in secret. But the tearful lover, denied entry, often smothers the threshhold with flowers and garlands, and anoints the haughty door-posts with marjoram, and plants his kisses, poor wretch, upon the doors; yet if, admitted at last, one single breath should meet him as he comes, he would seek some honest pretext to be gone, and the deep-drawn lament long-planned would fall idle, and then and there he would curse his folly, because he sees that he has assigned more to her than it is right to grant to any mortal. Nor is this unknown to our queens of love; nay the more are they at pains to hide all behind the scenes from those whom they wish to keep fettered in love; all for naught, since you can even so by thought bring it all to light and seek the cause of all this laughter, and if she is of a fair mind, and not spiteful, o’erlook faults in your turn, and pardon human weaknesses.