I can imagine using this in at least two ways: (1) using it to produce just the scrolling text, and then dropping the resulting video into a video editing program to customize the area around the box with the text. (2) as is, just as you are doing, combining a user-spoken MP3 with the text that is being spoken. You're adding options that will make option (2) very viable, but if it gets to be to huge a project, option (1) should always be workable too. My experience is that it's next to impossible to drop a large amount of text into any standard video-editor program, so this will solve that problem elegantly!

More greatness! Thank you!

Hmm did you mean to include a link to a video?

Amazing! I am out but will try as soon as I get home. Thank you!

Elli: Because according to Myth Cyprus is the birthplace of Venus/Aphrodite.

Cassius: I never knew that! Venus was born in Cyprus? Why Cyprus? Is there some mountain or temple or some other feature that connected her or her parents with Cyprus? https://visitworldheritage.com/.../d4a87816-4a22-44d0...
visitworldheritage.com

Birthplace of Aphrodite | World Heritage Journeys of Europe
Birthplace of Aphrodite | World Heritage Journeys of Europe 3d view! Is one of these rocks the important one? https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%…D-YJ8kpmkgB976k
360cities.net

The birthplace of Venus, Cyprus 360 Panorama | 360Cities

This question isn't chargeable to Epicurus or Lucretius, certainly, because the engraving in this photo is only a couple of hundred years old. But I wonder why, in this portrayal made for the opening of Lucretius Book One, the artist decided to feature a map of CYPRUS at the bottom left of the drawing. And specifically - it says Cyprus - in case anyone didn't recognize the shape. Is Cyprus a particularly delightful place, or something? Or thought to be so in old England? Or is there in fact a connection I am missing?

It looks like Amazon now has a range of 3d printers that cost under $200.00, so this is light years ahead of where we were when I scanned my Epicurus bust 5+ years ago (I know I am mixing the technologies - printing is not the same as scanning) but I am not up on the latest developments on how to scan.

Edit: Looks like prices have plummeted there too.

Yes Joshua I think that is a great goal. We ought to be able to design nice-looking items for which the 3d design files can be downloaded by anyone and printed at home. We worked on that in the past with the model of the Epicurus bust, and those are out there "somewhere" but they were not as quality ("sharpness") as could be done today. We really need to restart that project from scratch (re-scan the Epicurus busts) and then come up with a range of things that can be printed.

Thanks Samj - good info!

Friday, October 11, 2019:

By the same rule, the visible heavens, the surrounding walls of this great world, must tumble down by continual attacks, and fall to ruin. It is the nourishment that preserves things in being by constant supplies, but ‘tis all to no purpose: For neither are the veins capable to receive what is sufficient, nor can nature afford a proper and needful recruit. Even now, the age of the world is broken, and the Earth so feeble and worn out, that it scarce produces a puny kind of creatures, when it bore formerly a lusty race, and brought forth such prodigious bodies of wild beasts. Or I cannot think all species of creatures descended from the sky by a Golden Chain upon the Earth, nor were they by the Sea created, nor by the waves that beat the Rocks, but the same Earth which now supports them, at first gave them being. At first she kindly, of her own accord, raised the rich fruits and delightful vines for the benefit of men. She freely of herself offered her sweet produce, the corn and tender grass, which now scare rise to perfection with all our labor.

We wear out our oxen, and the strength of our husbandmen; we can scarce find plowshares sufficient to till the fields, things are so averse to grow, and our labors are forever increasing. And now the lusty plowman shakes his head, and laments the pains he took was oft in vain; and when he compares the present times with the glorious days that are past, he blesses the good fortune of those that were before him; he talks loudly how the old race of men, filled with piety, no doubt spent their happy days within the narrow bounds of their own field, (for then every man's share of ground was much less than it is now) but has no notion, fond fool! that things by degrees decay, and, worn out by old age, hasten to ruin to the utmost period of their duration.

End of Book Two

This reminds me that I have been playing with designs for a coin / memento. The different graphic elements which make sense to include are pretty obvious: fig leaves, leaping pig, atom, skull, then with an inscription / quote on back. This is very raw and just proof-of-concept stage:

Here is the original post at NewEpicurean that Samj mentioned.

What Would You Like Inscribed On Your Ring?

By Cassius Amicus Published October 10, 2012 Epicurean Art, Introductory Material

The topic of memorable rings has come to my attention today, and that reminds me to discuss another aspect of Epicureanism: the use of images of Epicurus and Epicurean inscriptions on rings, cups, and other mementos.

Bernard Frischer’s book “The Sculpted Word” provides an excellent background into the use of images by the ancient Epicureans as both a self-help device and a device for recruitment of new converts to the philosophy (the very idea of recruitment being contrary to the view of Epicureanism as hermitic). The Sculpted Word focuses largely on the monumental seated sculptures of Epicurus himself, a number of which survive at least in pieces from antiquity. In addition, Cicero records the use of rings and cups apparently used in a similar way.

The question I would like to pose today is the title of the post “What Would You Like Inscribed On Your Epicurean Ring?” An image of Epicurus is the first obvious choice. Munro records in the overleaf to his translation of De Rerum Natura the existence of an oval ring bearing an image that appears to be marked as that of Lucretius.

We also have busts of Metrodorus and Hermarchus that survive from Herculaneum, so images of those important Epicureans are also available.

But what if you wanted a more simple ring inscribed with only a particularly meaningful phrase? What would that phrase be? Any number of the Authorized Doctrines or the Vatican Sayings lend themselves to this, but selecting one short enough to use is a little trickier. Here are a couple that come to mind:

• Nothing can be created from nothing. (Nil posse creari de nilo.) (Latin from Lucretius Book I)
• Death is nothing to us.
• Guide of Life, Divine Pleasure (dux vitae dia voluptas) (Latin from Lucretius Book II)
• Nothing is enough for the man to whom enough is too little.

At present I think my favorite would be one of the first two, as I think of those as starting points on which the rest of Epicureanism is erected. Nothing can be created from nothing because a ring is something physical that can be touched, something which has a clear and certain reality, a tangible example that nothing is created from nothing, which leads to all the other physical observations about the universe. Death is nothing to us, as a constant reminder that all the pleasure we seek must be experienced while we live, and that it is worse that folly to worry about a past or future existence of the soul.

I would be interested to know your thoughts and suggestions!

__________________

We definitely need to add here images of the rings from the British Museum:

Samj could you share a link to the source that you used to make that for you and any helpful commentary that would let others do that?

Also I wonder if we could do designs that could be translated to 3d files where such things could be printed at home on 3d printers(?) I don't have one but I gather they are becoming very common and inexpensive.

Excellent Samj and great choice of lines!

I see this translation: Therefore death to us is nothing, nor concerns us in the least,

But given my small amount of Latin that's one that is easy to follow as is without rewording:

Nil igitur mors est ad nos neque pertinet hilum

Nothing therefore death is to us; neither does it concern in the least.

I had to look up "hilum" but the rest is really basic!

https://latin.ucant.org/

WOW KYLE THANK YOU! I was hoping that there might already exist some kind of sourceforge or github project to do such a thing, but it never occurred to me that it might be possible that someone here could make one specially for this use!

The demo looks great! I looked over the code and it seems so simple, but I don't know the first thing about Python programming.

I see you have a place to specify the color of the background, and the video size. That's excellent too. I can imagine that someone doing this might want to take the resulting video and surround it with some kind of frame or Titling, and the ability to specify those settings ought to be easy enough to take the result and do that in any video editor. I can see someone's first request might be the ability to specify a fixed title, a special font, and a background image instead of a simple color, and if I were to dare to make requests those would probably be it, but even as is this looks highly usable. (As to the font I mean the default font for the entire scrolling text, not the ability to change fonts within it - I presume that would require it's own word processor. But it's not clear to me whether the python program is being input text in Ascii format, or RTF, or what.)

Many many thanks for taking this initiative!!

I am thinking ahead to the Lucretius book review discussion, and I am realizing that we have a continuing need for computer method that will allow us to create video that is mostly the spoken reading of text that scrolls by on the screen as it is being read. In other words, for example, creating a video of an audio reading of a letter of Epicurus while the text of the letter scrolls by in the video.

I have confronted this issue before in creating the "Foundations of Epicurean Philosophy" video without really coming to a satisfactory conclusion. It is very tedious to match text to the audio and flash it by in segments, so what I am wondering is this:

It ought to be possible to record a segment of text on audio, and then move that audio file into a video processor where it can be matched to a text file of the same material. When I say "matched" I mean that in most video editors the audio file shows up on screen as a picture of the waveform of appropriate length. What then needs to be done is to add the "text file" of the text into the editor, and then drag that out to the same length as the audio waveform along with a "scroll this" command - kind of like the opening scene of the original Star Wars movie, but not necessarily fading into the background but simply scrolling from bottom of the screen to the top.

We ought to have a number of people who are capable of creating text excerpts like this, so I would like to develop a recommended procedure in which we identify the program and the method to recommend. In order to make that accessible to as many people as possible it would be desirable if the programs were free (such as, for example, the AUDACITY editor for editing audio) .

But the first order of business is probably to find a method that as many people as possible will find convenient, whether it is "free" or not.

I will work on this and report back in this thread.

My preferred tool is linux, but we aren't limited to that. As for free programs, the Audacity audio editor will do all the audio editing that we need, and such free video editors as KDENLIVE and OPENSHOT may do some of the video, but not necessarily the scrolling effect that is really needed.

If you are knowledgeable in computers and have a suggestion I would really appreciate it.

Quote

I don’t know about fire only, but re: fire plus iron, in Lucretius, an evaluation of the association between iron and warfare is explored. The passage ends explaining how Discord multiplies the horrors of war.

How nature of iron discovered was, thou mayst
Of thine own self divine. Man’s ancient arms
Were hands, and nails and teeth, stones too and boughs-
Breakage of forest trees- and flame and fire,
As soon as known.

Hiram: I think Ben's point in raising the "fire" issue was the general one that Wilson seemed to be saying that Lucretius' pre-history discussion was sort of a validation of Marxist "class-struggle" history in a political sense. Or maybe in other philosophical terms she seemed to be implying that Lucretius was glorifying life before technology as a better time / golden age. And Ben was saying, and I agree with him, that I do not read Lucretius "glorifying" that period, or calling it a golden age, as much as he just seems to be stating the facts of what happened, with both the bad and good that went with it, to get us to where we are. Almost as if he were chronicling the movement of the atoms and telling us what brought about current conditions.

Ben was speculating that because Marxism is so prevalent in academia that that might be coloring her approach. Whether or not that is true may not be important, but if Wilson is going to make a habit of suggesting that Lucretius and Epicurus extolled pre-history as a golden age, that leads to the implication that all technology and "progress" is bad, and reinforces the viewpoint that Epicureanism if carried to a logical conclusion would endorse living in caves.

Do you have a different reading of Lucretius on that point? How do you read it?

Quote from Hiram

“Then at about 13:50 she says: "Coming to terms with these limits is really the center of Epicurean ethical philosophy." And here I have to disagree. In my reading of Epicurus, the center is really the principle of pleasure and avoidance of pain. Limits play a peripheral role. I could be wrong, and I'd like to here what other members here think of this.

I'll listen to the rest and add to my comments later”

I remember that diogenes mentioned that not knowing the limits of our desires among the three “roots of all evil”. So this must have been of great importance.

Ok it looks to me like the three being referred to in that passage are three fears - of gods, of death, and of pains, with the general point under discussion there being "disturbing emotions."

I kind of agree that the statement ""Coming to terms with these limits is really the center of Epicurean ethical philosophy" is really pretty loose and overbroad, especially if you follow the traditional sequence of fear of the gods and fear of death being the most important issues to deal with at the very beginning.

Certainly the issue of realizing that desires are not unlimited, and need not be pursued to infinity, is an important part of Epicurean philosophy. But I would not say that it is "at the center," and Lucretius doesn't address it at length until Book 2.

But I wouldn't stress too much either way on Wilson's statements here. It seems to me that this entire presentation is kind of loose and general, especially in the way she presents it. She might indeed take that position in print in her book but I haven't looked at it yet.

Thursday October 10, 2019:

These things, if you rightly apprehend, Nature will appear free in her operations, wholly from under the power of domineering deities, and to act all things voluntarily, and of herself, without the assistance of gods. For Oh - the undisturbed bosoms of the powers above, blessed with sacred peace! How they live in everlasting ease, a life void of care! Who can rule this infinite Universe? Who has the power to hold the mighty reigns of government in his hands over this whole mass? Who likewise can turn about all these heavens? And cherish all these fruitful globes of Earth with celestial heat? Who can be present at all times, and in all places? To darken the world with clouds, to shake the vast expansion of the serene heavens with noise; to dart the thunder, and often overturn his own temples, to fly into the wilderness, and furiously brandish that fiery bolt, which often passes by the guilty, and strikes dead the innocent and undeserving?

Besides, after this world was formed, and the birthday of the Sea, the Earth, and the Sun was over, there were many particles of matter added to them from without, many seeds were received every way, which the infinite mass of universe constantly discharged; from whence the Sea and the Earth grew more strong and vigorous; from when the mansions of the heavens were enlarged, and raised their lofty arches higher from the Earth, and new air was produced. For from all the parts of the universe the proper seeds are distributed, and retire severally in all places to their proper kinds; the watery to the water, the Earth increases by earthy particles, the fiery produce fire, the airy air, til Nature, the parent and perfectress of all things, improves all beings to the utmost extent of growth they are capable of. This comes to pass, when no more is received into the vital passages, than what is perspired, and flies off; then it is that the growth of the creature is at a full stand, and nature restrains it from further increase.

For whatever creature you observe to thrive and grow lively and large, and by degrees climb up to a mature age, receives more particles into itself than it emits, because all the nourishment is easily distributed into the veins, and there confined, and the particles are not so widely scattered as in any proportion to fly off, and so receive a loss faster than they are supplied. For we must allow that many particles certainly fly off from bodies, but many others ought to be coming on, til the thing arrives to its utmost pitch of bulk. Then, by degrees, its strength and maturity of vigor decays, its age melts away and dissolves; for the larger any body is, the greater it is in size, when its growth is over, it wastes the more every way, and sends out more particles from itself; nor is the nourishment easily distributed into the veins, or nature sufficient to renew and supply those effluvia it throws off in such abundance, in proportion as the defect and the loss require. The animal therefore must necessarily perish when it is made thin by continual perspiration, and all things must at length fall by constant strokes from without; for the supplies from food must fail in old age, nor do bodies from without ever cease to batter and break to pieces all things with strokes not to be resisted.

Here is some useful commentary posted elsewhere in response to my post above;

BDG:

Good to see more academic interest in Epicurus. I've just started watching, but I must say that based on the notes I'm going into this with a lot of skepticism.

First of all I notice the Anglicized pronunciation of Epicurus, which I just find jarring, being so used to the Greek pronunciation. But oh well, I guess that is a detail I should not be bothered by.

I notice she is spending a lot of time on physics, which I think is the least interesting and most outdated part of the philosophy of Epicurus.

Then at about 13:50 she says: "Coming to terms with these limits is really the center of Epicurean ethical philosophy." And here I have to disagree. In my reading of Epicurus, the center is really the principle of pleasure and avoidance of pain. Limits play a peripheral role. I could be wrong, and I'd like to here what other members here think of this.

I'll listen to the rest and add to my comments later.

21:45 Interesting (and something I was not aware of) that Epicurus had a primitive form of the theory of natural selection. I think this speaks to the strength of Epicurus physics, even tho they did not have the scientific tools to confirm their theories, or to adjust them to the specifics we have observed since. This in turn strengthens his metaphysics of materialism and the lack of supernatural gods.

I have to watch the rest later today.

Cassius:

I hope others will comment as they get a chance to watch this. In the meantime I want to make a friendly comment on this that Ben said: "First of all I notice the Anglicized pronunciation of Epicurus, which I just find jarring, being so used to the Greek pronunciation. But oh well, I guess that is a detail I should not be bothered by."

To me this is a perfect example of how so much is determined by perspective (which is itself an Epicurean core viewpoint). I personally find the Greek pronunciation of the name jarring (as I gather Holly did in her recent comment on Christos' video:-) ) But as Ben said that is minor; a better example is the physics. If someone comes from a background where they are at home with atheism and science as a given, then the physics may seem old hat. But the world is teeming with people who will never accept anything about Epicurean philosophy because they reject the idea that there is no life after death, and no creating god, and they see the supernatural under every bed. So physics can be an important link to them.

It just depends on the circles you are raised in and the circles you travel in, I guess. But there are also issues as to how closely you link the ethics and the physics. I tend to find them inseparable, even beyond the issue of the supernatural, but again some people have no issue with idea that there is really no absolute truth or virtue in the universe, and that "feeling" is what is ultimately important, so again there is a lot of variation.

JC:

I was introduced to Epicurean philosophy by Professor Wilson, and to date I haven't found a presentation of it I find more credible and level headed. I think that's because undergirding it is modern physicalist and prudential hedonist philosophy. I just wish in this talk she spoke more about *how to be* an Epicurean. In her latest book she often stresses a) the difference between what really exists and what exists only by convention and b) prudence in choosing which actions will maximise your overall pleasure. But I enjoyed the talk nonetheless; it's always a pleasure to see that rarest of creatures - a philosopher with a philosophy

Cassius:

JC following on your comment, i was impressed to observe her choice of topics here as what *she* thought was significant for people to know. In interviews she and others are generally led down a predisposed path by the interviewer. Here she could display what *she* thought was an appropriate introduction and she chose to cover a lot of ground rather than focus on one or two things. For general audiences i much prefer her approach.

BDG:

Around the 25 minute mark where she talks about the rise of civilization, and how according to Lucretius the primitive period was the happiest period in the human race: is that just his opinion; does she agree with it? Did Epicurus have the same view?

It also sounds quite Marxist to point out the power dynamics, oppression and slavery as the evils of civilization. She does mention the good products of culture also, but it doesn't seem to outweigh the bad?

And I have to disagree with this negative assessment of civilization. The primitive prehistory of mankind was not a paradise, but filled with violence and suffering in the struggle to survive. Civilization has progressively made things better for humankind.

And after she talks for just about two minutes about Epicurus' core idea of pleasure, she puts a downer on it with:

31:35 - Discovery of fire gradually produced misery of civilization and oppression -

Is there anything in Epicurus' writings themselves that point to this opinion, or is this just Lucretius, or maybe even just Professor Wilson's interpretation?

All in all I would say this is an interesting talk, but I find the choice of highlights curious, and I would feel ambivalent about recommending this as an introduction on how to be an Epicurean.

Cassius:

Excellent points Ben. I put a question mark around that part as i personally do NOT recall or think that Lucretius romanticized this 'pseudo-state of nature" as a golden age, but I need to check the texts. My bet is that this is mostly Professor Wilson's interpretation, because I read that section of Lucretius as chronicling what actually happened without lamenting that it should not have happened.

BDG:

I haven't come across that in my reading of Epicurus, but I must admit to not having read Lucretius yet.

And this interpretation seems to go hand in hand with the power/oppression/slavery angle, which sounds decidedly Marxist to me. And since academia is rife with Marxist ideology, I suspect this may be the lens thru which the professor is looking at the material.

Cassius:

I changed my "like" to "love" on that remark. I think this is probably exactly correct: "And since academia is rife with Marxist ideology, I suspect this may be the lens thru which the professor is looking at the material.

Everyone has their own lens, and that's probably a good thing, but it's at least the reality. When we read or hear commentary we need access to both the text and knowledge of the lens through which the commentary is being transmitted -- much like the discussion of images in book 4, where we are taught that we need to account for distortions in the work of the senses.

BDG:

That's a good point. And it is good to try to be conscious of our own biases as well.

My own lens is certainly colored by my experiences of recovering from fundamentalist religion, and from depression; and by my professional interest as a language teacher; by my experiences of living in different countries in Europe and now China; by the ideas I have taken on board from reading certain books (e.g. Steven Pinker and Michel Onfray). And so on.

Cassius:

Since Catherine Wilson singled out "fire" as a turning point, it's worthwhile to point out that fire was an entirely natural development, through lightning, according to Lucretius:

"Herein, lest by chance you should ask a silent question, it was the lightning that first of all brought fire to earth for mortals, and from it all the heat of flames is spread abroad."

BDG:

Ah, how I appreciate Epicurus' conciseness in writing over the wordiness of Lucretius' poetry...

Anyway, he does not describe the primordial state as paradise ("For then more often would some one of them be caught and furnish living food to the wild beasts, devoured by their teeth, and would fill woods and mountains and forests with his groaning") and just describes the evolution of humanity and civilization, with both the good ("by their arts they reached the topmost pinnacle") and the bad ("many thousands of men led beneath the standards and done to death in a single day").

Cassius:

Yes exactly my view too Ben. And I want to thank you for all your comments in this thread because you've pointed out some important shortcomings in this presentation. This is an example why it is so helpful for us to post commentary along with links to presentations so that people who might be lurking will get help in separating the good from the bad. You are quite right in my view to point out the subtle (or not so suble) influence of marxist thought in this video. I am observing in other presentations that Ms. Wilson can be even much more outspoken about her political deductions, and people need to realize that those are her views, and not necessarily correct. The best way to keep an even presentation is for us to be sure to point these things out when they are posted.

Cassius: Here are sections from Book V (Bailey) that are probably the important ones for CW's assertions:

But the race of man was much hardier then in the fields, as was seemly for a race born of the hard earth: it was built up on larger and more solid bones within, fastened with strong sinews traversing the flesh; not easily to be harmed by heat or cold or strange food or any taint of the body. And during many lustres of the sun rolling through the sky they prolonged their lives after the roving manner of wild beasts. Nor was there any sturdy steerer of the bent plough, nor knew any one how to work the fields with iron, or to plant young shoots in the earth, or cut down the old branches off high trees with knives. What sun and rains had brought to birth, what earth had created unasked, such gift was enough to appease their hearts. Among oaks laden with acorns they would refresh their bodies for the most part; and the arbute-berries, which now you see ripening in wintertime with scarlet hue, the earth bore then in abundance, yea and larger. And besides these the flowering youth of the world then bare much other rough sustenance, enough and to spare for miserable mortals. But to slake their thirst streams and springs summoned them, even as now the downrush of water from the great mountains calls clear far and wide to the thirsting tribes of wild beasts. Or again they dwelt in the woodland haunts of the nymphs, which they had learnt in their wanderings, from which they knew that gliding streams of water washed the wet rocks with bounteous flood, yea washed the wet rocks, as they dripped down over the green moss, and here and there welled up and burst forth over the level plain.

Nor as yet did they know how to serve their purposes with fire, nor to use skins and clothe their body in the spoils of wild beasts, but dwelt in woods and the caves on mountains and forests, and amid brushwood would hide their rough limbs, when constrained to shun the shock of winds and the rain-showers. Nor could they look to the common weal, nor had they knowledge to make mutual use of any customs or laws. Whatever booty chance had offered to each, he bore it off; for each was taught at his own will to live and thrive for himself alone. And Venus would unite lovers in the woods; for each woman was wooed either by mutual passion, or by the man’s fierce force and reckless lust, or by a price, acorns and arbute-berries or choice pears. And trusting in their strange strength of hand and foot they would hunt the woodland tribes of wild beasts with stones to hurl or clubs of huge weight; many they would vanquish, a few they would avoid in hiding; and like bristly boars these woodland men would lay their limbs naked on the ground, when overtaken by night time, wrapping themselves up around with leaves and foliage. Nor did they look for daylight and the sun with loud wailing, wandering fearful through the fields in the darkness of night, but silent and buried in sleep waited mindful, until the sun with rosy torch should bring the light into the sky. For, because they had been wont ever from childhood to behold darkness and light begotten, turn by turn, it could not come to pass that they should ever wonder, or feel mistrust lest the light of the sun should be withdrawn for ever, and never-ending night possess the earth. But much greater was another care, inasmuch as the tribes of wild beasts often made rest dangerous for wretched men. Driven from their home they would flee from their rocky roof at the coming of a foaming boar or a mighty lion, and in the dead of night in terror they would yield their couches spread with leaves to their cruel guests.

Nor then much more than now would the races of men leave the sweet light of life with lamentation. For then more often would some one of them be caught and furnish living food to the wild beasts, devoured by their teeth, and would fill woods and mountains and forests with his groaning, as he looked on his living flesh being buried in a living tomb. And those whom flight had saved with mangled body, thereafter, holding trembling hands over their noisome sores, would summon Orcus with terrible cries, until savage griping pains had robbed them of life, all helpless and knowing not what wounds wanted. Yet never were many thousands of men led beneath the standards and done to death in a single day, nor did the stormy waters of ocean dash ships and men upon the rocks. Then rashly, idly, in vain would the sea often arise and rage, and lightly lay aside its empty threatenings, nor could the treacherous wiles of the windless waves lure any man to destruction with smiling waters; then the wanton art of sailing lay as yet unknown. Then, too, want of food would give over their drooping limbs to death, now on the other hand ’tis surfeit of good things brings them low. They all unwitting would often pour out poison for themselves, now with more skill they give it to others.

Then after they got themselves huts and skins and fire, and woman yoked with man retired to a single [home, and the laws of marriage] were learnt, and they saw children sprung from them, then first the race of man began to soften. For fire brought it about that their chilly limbs could not now so well bear cold under the roof of heaven, and Venus lessened their strength, and children, by their winning ways, easily broke down the haughty will of their parents. Then, too, neighbours began eagerly to form friendship one with another, not to hurt or be harmed, and they commended to mercy children and the race of women, when with cries and gestures they taught by broken words that ’tis right for all men to have pity on the weak. Yet not in all ways could unity be begotten, but a good part, the larger part, would keep their compacts loyally; or else the human race would even then have been all destroyed, nor could breeding have prolonged the generations until now.

But the diverse sounds of the tongue nature constrained men to utter, and use shaped the names of things, in a manner not far other than the very speechlessness of their tongue is seen to lead children on to gesture, when it makes them point out with the finger the things that are before their eyes. For every one feels to what purpose he can use his own powers. Before the horns of a calf appear and sprout from his forehead, he butts with them when angry, and pushes passionately. But the whelps of panthers and lion-cubs already fight with claws and feet and biting, when their teeth and claws are scarce yet formed. Further, we see all the tribe of winged fowls trusting to their wings, and seeking an unsteady aid from their pinions. Again, to think that any one then parcelled out names to things, and that from him men learnt their first words, is mere folly. For why should he be able to mark off all things by words, and to utter the diverse sounds of the tongue, and at the same time others be thought unable to do this? Moreover, if others too had not used words to one another, whence was implanted in him the concept of their use; whence was he given the first power to know and see in his mind what he wanted to do? Likewise one man could not avail to constrain many, and vanquish them to his will, that they should be willing to learn all his names for things; nor indeed is it easy in any way to teach and persuade the deaf what it is needful to do; for they would not endure it, nor in any way suffer the sounds of words unheard before to batter on their ears any more to no purpose.

Lastly, what is there so marvellous in this, if the human race, with strong voice and tongue, should mark off things with diverse sounds for diverse feelings? When the dumb cattle, yea and the races of wild beasts are wont to give forth diverse unlike sounds, when they are in fear or pain, or again when their joys grow strong. Yea verily, this we may learn from things clear to see. When the large loose lips of Molossian dogs start to snarl in anger, baring their hard teeth, thus drawn back in rage, they threaten with a noise far other than when they bark and fill all around with their clamour. Yet when they essay fondly to lick their cubs with their tongue, or when they toss them with their feet, and making for them with open mouth, feign gently to swallow them, checking their closing teeth, they fondle them with growling voice in a way far other than when left alone in the house they bay, or when whining they shrink from a beating with cringing body. Again, is not neighing seen to differ likewise, when a young stallion in the flower of his years rages among the mares, pricked by the spur of winged love, and from spreading nostrils snorts for the fray, and when, it may be, at other times he whinnies with trembling limbs? Lastly, the tribe of winged fowls and the diverse birds, hawks and ospreys and gulls amid the sea-waves, seeking in the salt waters for life and livelihood, utter at other times cries far other than when they are struggling for their food and fighting for their prey. And some of them change their harsh notes with the weather, as the long-lived tribes of crows and flocks of rooks, when they are said to cry for water and rains, and anon to summon the winds and breezes. And so, if diverse feelings constrain animals, though they are dumb, to utter diverse sounds, how much more likely is it that mortals should then have been able to mark off things unlike with one sound and another.

Herein, lest by chance you should ask a silent question, it was the lightning that first of all brought fire to earth for mortals, and from it all the heat of flames is spread abroad. For we see many things flare up, kindled with flames from heaven, when a stroke from the sky has brought the gift of heat. Yet again, when a branching tree is lashed by the winds and sways to and fro, reeling and pressing on the branches of another tree, fire is struck out by the strong force of the rubbing, anon the fiery heat of flame sparkles out, while branches and trunks rub each against the other. Either of these happenings may have given fire to mortals. And then the sun taught them to cook food and soften it by the heat of flame, since they saw many things among the fields grow mellow, vanquished by the lashing of his rays and by the heat.

And day by day those who excelled in understanding and were strong in mind showed them more and more how to change their former life and livelihood for new habits and for fire. Kings began to build cities and to found a citadel, to be for themselves a strong-hold and a refuge; and they parcelled out and gave flocks and fields to each man for his beauty or his strength or understanding; for beauty was then of much avail, and strength stood high. Thereafter property was invented and gold found, which easily robbed the strong and beautiful of honour; for, for the most part, however strong men are born, however beautiful their body, they follow the lead of the richer man. Yet if a man would steer his life by true reasoning, it is great riches to a man to live thriftily with calm mind; for never can he lack for a little. But men wished to be famous and powerful, that their fortune might rest on a sure foundation, and they might in wealth lead a peaceful life; all in vain, since struggling to rise to the heights of honour, they made the path of their journey beset with danger, and yet from the top, like lightning, envy smites them and casts them down anon in scorn to a noisome Hell; since by envy, as by lightning, the topmost heights are most often set ablaze, and all places that rise high above others; so that it is far better to obey in peace than to long to rule the world with kingly power and to sway kingdoms. Wherefore let them sweat out their life-blood, worn away to no purpose, battling their way along the narrow path of ambition; inasmuch as their wisdom is but from the lips of others, and they seek things rather through hearsay than from their own feelings, and that is of no more avail now nor shall be hereafter than it was of old.

And so the kings were put to death and the ancient majesty of thrones and proud sceptres was overthrown and lay in ruins, and the glorious emblem on the head of kings was stained with blood, and beneath the feet of the mob mourned the loss of its high honour; for once dreaded overmuch, eagerly now it is trampled. And so things would pass to the utmost dregs of disorder, when every man sought for himself the power and the headship. Then some of them taught men to appoint magistrates and establish laws that they might consent to obey ordinances. For the race of men, worn out with leading a life of violence, lay faint from its feuds; wherefore the more easily of its own will it gave in to ordinances and the close mesh of laws. For since each man set out to avenge himself more fiercely in his passion than is now suffered by equal laws, for this cause men were weary of leading a life of violence. Thence fear of punishment taints the prizes of life. For violence and hurt tangle every man in their toils, and for the most part fall on the head of him, from whom they had their rise, nor is it easy for one who by his act breaks the common pact of peace to lead a calm and quiet life. For though he be unnoticed of the race of gods and men, yet he must needs mistrust that his secret will be kept for ever; nay indeed, many by speaking in their sleep or raving in fever have often, so ’tis said, betrayed themselves, and brought to light misdeeds long hidden.

Cassius:

Here is the very END of book five. Again, I do not see all this building up to a climatic conclusion that all this change was bad, just that it happened and is part of reality:

"But sun and moon, like watchmen, traversing with their light all round the great turning vault of the world, taught men that the seasons of the year come round, and that the work goes on after a sure plan and a sure order.

Now fenced in with strong towers they would live their life, and the land was parcelled out and marked off: then the sea was gay with the flying sails of ships: now treaties were drawn up, and they had auxiliaries and allies, when poets first began to hand down men’s deeds in songs; yet not much before that were letters discovered. Therefore our age cannot look back to see what was done before, unless in any way reason points out traces.

Ships and the tilling of the land, walls, laws, weapons, roads, dress, and all things of this kind, all the prizes, and the luxuries of life, one and all, songs and pictures, and the polishing of quaintly-wrought statues, practice and therewith the experience of the eager mind taught them little by little, as they went forward step by step. So, little by little, time brings out each several thing into view, and reason raises it up into the coasts of light. For they saw one thing after another grow clear in their mind, until by their arts they reached the topmost pinnacle."