A number of good examples here how the teachings of Aristotle lend themselves to the molding of pliable young minds:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/1…h1B-UKWYY1uBtY8

Yuk!

There's no need to wonder why thy teach Aristotle and not Epicurus.

These are definitely difficult questions, and they are controversial and easy to get "emotional" about. That's one of the things that I hope we can do on this forum is to identify what part of our reaction to these questions is "personal viewpoint," what points are "philosophical." I think it is very likely that given that there is "no absolute justice" and the implications of PD30-40, Epicurus would probably say that different people come to different conclusions depending on their circumstances. So there is an aspect of "What factors should be considered under Epicurean Philosophy?" and then a separate analysis of "What conclusion should Epicurean XX reach under his or her own personal circumstances.

I think this is the key:

Quote from Mousikos

anywhere I meet like-minded people

But I would probably extend that to "anywhere I have FRIENDS."

And the difficult question is "What makes someone a like-minded person?" and "What makes someone a friend?"

Those questions don't have a single answer, but to me, I do not consider someone to be like-minded or a friend just because we have similar tastes in food or in other things that I think most people would consider to be superficial.

A "like-minded friend" - I think - is going to share common foundational viewpoints about the way the world works, and the way we see our goals, and the way we see each other, and we are going to be bound to each other in common concern for our mutually-shared view of the future.

And in many cases, but certainly not all, those people who fit that category are going to share many common background characteristics. By no means is it necessary in every instance to speak the same language, or be of the same race, or the same age, or the same sex, or the same occupation, or to share the same views of politics, or of religion. But all of those factors, and more, are going to be statistically relevant in predicting who is likely to be a "like-minded friend" and who is not.

I think the controversial but true foundation here is that there is no contradiction between observing the statistical norms and also considering individual variance from the norms. Both are factors in real life, and both have to be considered. Ignoring either one is perilous for accurately predicting how things will turn out.

I agree with the comment that Benthams's ethics are influenced by Aristotle and the others, probably at least as much as by Epicurus, so from my point of view that limits the usefulness of Benthamite reasoning in Epicurean philosophy. But discussing how and why that is the case would be very interesting and beneficial. We already have some discussions in that direction previously with Daniel Van Orman

If you know of good Youtube links to those, please post them in that thread, and to your favorite Bach as well. - thanks!

Great to have you Accord! I look forward to your participation and encourage you to start threads on any topics that interest you.

If you are not familiar with Frances Wright's "A Few Days In Athens," you will see that she dedicated the book to Jeremy Bentham, and that is probably one of the connections between Epicurus and Utilitarian thought to which you refer.

http://www.AFewDaysInAthens.com

Welcome accord ! When you get a chance please introduce yourself and tell us a little about your background in Epicurus.

New article posted:  "Free Will In Epicurean Philosophy" - by Dimitris Liarmakopoulos

Elli that is a great article and I am not sure I have read it before (?) That needs to be formatted and placed where it can be found, in the Articles section maybe? I wonder if it is possible that George Metaxas has a photo online somewhere we could add to it? And maybe we can add some other graphics to it as well. At any rate, let's get this one into an area where it can be found.

I would like to repost it at NewEpicurean.com too, and when we find one or more homes for it we can post link to it at other locations.

I am sure Elli will be glad to hear that part about Thessaloniki!!!

Elli I immediately recognize Burt Lancaster but I don't think I have ever heard of that movie, or even know what historical setting it is in. I will look this up and investigate!

Sometimes mileage takes time to accumulate but all your Epicurean meme and graphic work is going to bear fruit, Nate!

Thanks Nate! That's a very effective tool!

Here is a continuing issue which we need to address: Orientation for people who are new to Epicurus and don't know where to start.

Here's an analogy: Someone new finds out about Epicurus and wants to learn more. They come to Epicureanfriends.com, or to Epicurean sections on Facebook, or on Reddit, or on some other online location, and they find lots of detailed information about fine points of the philosophy. They quickly get lost in all the detail and get turned off by the amount of effort needed to get a big picture perspective.

There's no way to prevent this problem from happening. If we are doing our job, new people will constantly hear about Epicurus and want to know more. Just like the atoms, at no fixed time and no fixed place, new people are going to swerve into one of our public activities, and they are not going to know where to start. And Wikipedia is not only not going to get them where they need to be, it will probably discourage them from going further. Epicurean philosophy is not just another "ism" to read some ice-cold commentary and then put back on the shelf.

I can't imagine a more basic point than for us to repeat over and over: "If you have a question, ASK!" No sincere question, no matter how basic, will be turned away. If you're a troll, or wasting our time and yours, we will let you know pretty quickly. So I think that is the logical first line of response to new people.

The second line of response is where we really need more work. There is a FAQ set up at Epicureanfriends, and most of our Epicurean web pages have well-labelled directions on places to start. But there is a constant need for more and better material that summarizes the important points of Epicurean philosophy and bulldozes past the superficialities and misconceptions. This can be done through graphic memes, through videos, through audio presentations, and other avenues. Some of us are even talented enough to commit the core ideas to music, or to poetry.

So I write this to encourage our Epicurean activists to keep working on new and better material. And if you're reading this for the first time, don't hesitate to post a question in this thread, or wherever else you think appropriate.

Nate thank you for these!

I think it's pretty clear what meaning is conveyed by these, but can you tell us about the name "Drake Memes" and where that comes from?

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/gallery/image/283/

Rhetorically our enemies try to trap us with arguments that are essentially "So you're saying that there is no difference between the pleasure of building a rocket and flying to the moon vs. the pleasure of picking your fingernail?"

No, that's not what we are saying. Pleasures do differ in many aspects. The point is that share many essential common aspects that are important to recognize lest we get taken in by arguments that some pleasures are blessed and some pleasures are prohibited such nonexistent reference points as gods or ideal forms.

Over at another internet location, someone made a comment to the effect that "of the Greek philosophers, Epicurus (who advised his followers to "avoid politics") had gained the greatest political victory in the modern world."

The writer was from Cambridge England.

Here was my reply to him:

To the Poster from Cassius:

I see that you wrote that Epicurus gained the greatest political victory, and I also see that you are located in Cambridge. I've never been to England, so perhaps you can help me with a question I have. Suppose I decided to take a walk through downtown London, holding a big homemade sign that says:

1 - Yahweh, Jesus, and Allah are Mickey Mouse Gods!

2 - When you're dead, buddy, that's all she wrote, so forget heaven and hell!

3 - Your "virtue" is worthless unless it brings pleasure!

4 - Socrates was a liar, Plato was a faker, Aristotle was a wasted druggie, and Bertrand Russell was an ignorant boor!

After an afternoon walking through London with that sign, would the reaction I received confirm for me that Epicurus had the greatest victory and rules the capital of one of the greatest cities in the modern world?

What do you think?

I scanned the article and if I read correctly it makes a huge point I like to stress myself: Pleasure is a FEELING, and viewing it as a natural feeling rather than something that contains some mystical element of "good" or "bad" provides the key to understanding it.

Well what I am presuming to do is to scan to PDF, then OCR the result so that it is machine-readable.