Posts by Cassius

Great post! My only fine tuning on what is posted so far is this:

Quote from Joshua

There is friendship, then; the greatest pleasure, and surest path to happiness

I think the second clause is almost exactly correct, but I would say that what Epicurus saying is that the whole the pleasure of having a friend is great, and such relationships are actually or at least virtually essential, I do not think that there is an absolute ranking of pleasures that would allow us to call friendship "the greatest pleasure."

A fine point I easily grant, but given our focus on explaining the nature of pleasure as accurately as possible. I think an important one.

Am I forgetting any passage that would justify exactly calling friendship "the greatest pleasure"?

We definitely need to expand the thread and be sure we touch on the explanation for the opening of Lucretius Book Two.

And I think we will also find more apt material on friendship in the Torquatus material in Book One of On Ends that we will tackle next week (section 65 et seq. If I recall correctly)

And yes there is much in Diogenes of Oinoanda to incorporate, in addition to "circumstantial evidence" and "logical implications" that may not be explicit

First and foremost in case a glitch in the site causes it to go down for more than a few minutes. We've been very lucky so far that the software has been very stable and your humble administrator has avoided some of his more hamfisted acts of technical stupidity.

Secondly, while you are right that we have no state secrets, it's less clear that we have no reason for anyone to dislike us. A large part of our safety has come through obscurity. Hopefully we won't always be so secure, at which point a number of Epicurean beliefs would make it less than popular everywhere and this subject of a malicious meddling.

Third (and this is not emergency backup) I do think some people like instant messangers for the notification abilities the website doesn't have, and the reason for threema is that I think we want to provide users with the ability to contact each other directly but also anonymously (if both agree) and Threema's no personal id architecture seems to suit that best.

Today at the suggestion of another user here I have started exploring THREEMA as an alternative messenger. The great advantage that Threema has over Signal, Telegram, Whatsapp, and similar is that it does not require any identifying information like Telephone numbers (which Signal and Telegram require). The "disadvantage" is that there is a four dollar one time (lifetime) fee to join the network. I put "disadvantage" in quotes because I agree with Threema's argument -- that if you aren't paying something for the product, then "YOU are the product" because the only way such companies can stay in business is data mine your information. I also don't consider it a major disadvantage because the cost is minimal, and probably serves the good purpose of making sure that those who join are serious (to the extent that four dollars is "serious"). Threema is based in Switzerland where the European privacy laws seem to be considerably stronger than they currently are in the USA.

I have set up an EpicureanFriends group on Threema, but consistent with its privacy focus it's no possible to find it on a public directory. Someone who is currently a member has to add you to the group.

I will probably make a post about this on the front page, and if things continue to look good Threema will probably become my main backup alternative to the forum itself. I've been tempted to launch a Telegram channel, but I think in the end that this forum software does most of the communication we need, and if we want a second / backup solution to communicate when the forum is down or in an emergency, Threema makes the most sense.

If you use Threema and would like to be a part of the EpicureanFriends group there, and thereby be part of our emergency backup / instant messenger system, just send me a message and we will get you added. That way if anything ever happens to your account of the forum goes down for a period of time you'll have a way to stay in touch until we are back up.

A comparison of the major messengers from Threema's point of view is here.

I think we had another good session tonight. We'll eventually get these posted for future use but I am pleased with how things are going so thanks to everyone who participated.

Quote from Kalosyni

The words and phrasing are so different from modern english that it takes a lot of effort to unravel.

And that's a large part of the reason that we have the book review, to help unravel it!

Cassius Amicus is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

Topic: Cassius Amicus' Zoom Meeting AFDIA Session TWO

Time: Feb 6, 2022 08:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

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Link to be posted here by 745 pm

Joshua can you paste the text of that into a note here? Don't worry about the formatting

Good observation as to the labeling by characteristics!

Today's episode was one rant after another and Joshua's notes pasted above were critical to stoking the fires! I will get this edited and posted as soon as I can.

Quote from Kalosyni

So for modern Epicureans, we must look instead to modern psychology for help with our understanding of marriage and long-term relationships

I presume that's a reference to courtesans who are not usually available to day. But as for the rest of what Lucretius is saying I think that what he is saying is foundational and takes precedence even before modern psychology, all of which has to be conformed to correct philosophy , rather than the other way around.

That's because In my humble view modern psychology is as frequently or more a mess (with camps saying very opposite things) than modern philosophy.

Ok very good!

So it seems that with only a few exceptions that sort of prove the rule, the arch really is distinctly associable with Rome?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch#Classical_Persia_and_Greece

Don do you not find that "Les Epicureans" has less information in it that would help you determine how much confidence to put in the translation? I am thinking i remember that it's not heavily footnoted or referenced, so it's hard to know how much is reconstruction and how firm it is. Am I misremembering that?

Chapter Two Philosophical Highlights:

- Epicurus jokes with his friends that he himself likes Theon, but when the immediately say that Epicurus' opinion is enough for them, he rebukes them and says they are fools if they don't use their own eyes ears and understandings rather than trusting his. All this is said in good humor.

- Introduction of Leontium as a mature woman rather than paragon of youthful beauty. She is reading a treatise of Theophrastus, leader of the Arisotelian school, and she is not happy with it and wants to answer it. She remarks that she resists it because she finds it overbearing.

"For, indeed, the mode of delivering a truth makes, for the most part, as much impression on the mind of the listener, as the truth itself. It is as hard to receive the words of wisdom from the ungentle, as it is to love, or even to recognize virtue in the austere."

"“Whether the vicious were more justly objects of indignation or of contempt: Metrodorus argued for the first, and I for the latter. Let the master decide.” Epicurus responds: "Neither" ... "“It has yet a third; and I hardly ever heard a question that had not. Had I regarded the vicious with indignation, I had never gained one to virtue. Had I viewed them with contempt, I had never sought to gain one.”"

- On the right to free opinion: "“Talk not of presumption, my son. Who has not a right to think for himself? Or, who is he whose voice is infallible, and worthy to silence those of his fellow men? "

- [Time] "as he leads us gently onwards in the path of life, demonstrates to us many truths that we never heard in the schools, and some that, hearing there, we found hard to receive. Our knowledge of human life must be acquired by our passage through it; the lessons of the sage are not sufficient to impart it. Our knowledge of men must be acquired by our own study of them; the report of others will never convince us. When you, my son, have seen more of life, and studied more men, you will find, or, at least, I think you will find, that the judgment is not false which makes us lenient to the failings — yea! even to the crimes of our fellows. In youth, we act on the impulse of feeling, and we feel without pausing to judge. An action, vicious in itself, or that is so merely in our estimation, fills us with horror, and we turn from its agent without waiting to listen to the plea which his ignorance could make to our mercy. In our ripened years, supposing our judgment to have ripened also, when all the insidious temptations that misguided him, and all the disadvantages that he has labored under, perhaps-from his birth, are apparent to us — it is then, and not till then, that our indignation at the crime is lost in our pity of the man.”

- An Epicurean view of compassion? "But you will say, that there are qualities of so mean or so horrible a nature, as to place the man that is governed by them out of the pale of communion with the virtuous. Malice, cruelty, deceit, ingratitude — crimes such as these, should, you think, draw down upon those convicted of them, no feelings more mild than abhorrence, execration, and scorn. And yet, perhaps, these were not always natural to the heart they now sway. Fatal impressions, vicious example, operating on the plastic frame of childhood, may have perverted all the fair gifts of nature, may have distorted the tender plant from the seedling, and crushed all the blossoms of virtue in the germ. Say, shall we not compassionate the moral disease of our brother, and try our skill to restore him to health? But is the evil beyond cure? Is the mind strained into changeless deformity, and the heart corrupted in the core? Greater, then, much greater will be our compassion. For is not his wretchedness complete, when his errors are without hope of correction? Oh, my sons! the wicked may work mischief to others, but they never can inflict a pang such as they endure themselves. I am satisfied, that of all the miseries that tear the heart of man, none may compare with those it feels beneath the sway of baleful passions.”"

- On the lure of Stoicism: "“Oh,” cried Theon, turning with a timid blush towards Epicurus, “I have long owned the power of virtue, but surely till this night I never felt its persuasion.”

“I see you were not born for a stoic,” said the master, smiling, “Why, my son, what made you fall in love with Zeno?”

“His virtues,” said the youth, proudly.

“His fine face and fine talking,” returned the philosopher, with a tone of playful irony.

- On the irreconcilable war between Stoicism and Epicurus:

“Oh, that Zeno knew you!”

“And then he would certainly hate me.”

“You joke.”

“Quite serious. Don’t you know that who quarrels with your doctrine, must always quarrel with your practice? Nothing is so provoking as that a man should preach viciously and act virtuously.”

“But you do not preach viciously.”

“I hope not. But those will call it so, aye! and in honest heart think it so, who preach a different, it need not be a better, doctrine.”

“But Zeno mistakes your doctrine.”

“I have no doubt he expounds it wrong.”

“He mistakes it altogether. He believes that you own no other law — no other principle of action — than pleasure.”

“He believes right.”

Chapter Two Event Summary:

I see we're going to end up with two threads for each episode; (1) The thread associated with the calendar event, and (2) the thread associated with the chapter in the section on the book.

Until i figure out a way to deal with that, here's a crosslink where it's likely a majority of the discussion over time will take place: AFDIA - Chapter One

Great analogy! Thanks Joshua!

And without the ethics (a position on how to live) we would have no interest whatsoever in the physics or canonics and they would be as irrelevant to us as they are to many people who drift aimlessly through life.

Welcome to Episode One Hundred Eight of Lucretius Today.

This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

I am your host Cassius, and together with our panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

At this point in our podcast we have completed our first line-by-line review of the poem, and we have turned to the presentation of Epicurean ethics found in Cicero's On Ends. Today we turn to section 64 of Book One, and we discuss the Epicurean reliance on the senses and the benefits of natural science.

Now let's join Joshua reading today's text:

[64] Moreover, unless the constitution of the world is thoroughly understood, we shall by no means be able to justify the verdicts of our senses. Further, our mental perceptions all arise from our sensations; and if these are all to be true, as the system of Epicurus proves to us, then only will cognition and perception become possible. Now those who invalidate sensations and say that perception is altogether impossible, cannot even clear the way for this very argument of theirs when they have thrust the senses aside. Moreover, when cognition and knowledge have been invalidated, every principle concerning the conduct of life and the performance of its business becomes invalidated. So from natural science we borrow courage to withstand the fear of death, and firmness to face superstitious dread, and tranquillity of mind, through the removal of ignorance concerning the mysteries of the world, and self-control, arising from the elucidation of the nature of the passions and their different classes, and as I shewed just now, our leader again has established the canon and criterion of knowledge and thus has imparted to us a method for marking off falsehood from truth.

You know it's also pretty easy to connect keeping things in our minds and "on our radar screens" by having images of Epicurus on rings and portraits and busts around us