Posts by Cassius

This is more than a little off topic but that juxtaposition of dual roles reminds me of this line from Paine's "Age of Reason":

Quote

The Bible of the creation is inexhaustible in texts. Every part of science, whether connected with the geometry of the universe, with the systems of animal and vegetable life, or with the properties of inanimate matter, is a text as well for devotion as for philosophy-—for gratitude, as for human improvement. It will perhaps be said, that if such a revolution in the system of religion takes place, every preacher ought to be a philosopher. Most certainly, and every house of devotion a school of science.

http://klymkowskylab.colorado.edu/Readings/Thomas%20Paine%20-%20The%20Age%20of%20Reason.pdf

Quote

"I think it’s safe to assume that most of us (meaning all humans) are not overly happy people in general. Life allows for some pleasures here and there…the basics, but real joys are sometimes few and far between. I personally often feel a level of somberness that comes with a litany of experiences."

This observation is a key one. There's something about the way different people categorize their view of life that we're really dealing with here, and I don't think it's a purely "logical" difference in conclusion. I don't know if it's cultural, clinical, genetic, chemical, educational, or some combination of these or even other factors, but to reach the conclusion that "life allows for some pleasures here and there...." is indeed a somber attitude that everyone does not share.

I would have to think about better ways to illustrate it than this quote, but this is what comes immediately to mind from the "head and heart" letter:

Founders Online: From Thomas Jefferson to Maria Cosway, 12 October 1786

founders.archives.gov

Maybe these sentiments are hard to reduce to a logical formula, but I see in the difference between these two perspectives something that goes to the heart of Epicurus vs the Buddhist perspective.

It's almost like we need a chart with the major different branches on the X axis and the major beliefs on the Y and then check boxes or short yes or no entries in the grid at each intersection?

Again this is never likely to satisfy a committed Buddhist, but that's not our audience or intent here. Rather we are aiming only at a fair overview helpful for our own needs in categorizing the issues.

We've never satisfied the Stoics in our comparisons there, and we won't satisfy the Buddhists, but since we are neither that's a secondary consideration.

Thank you and welcome Brian! If you get a chance to at least tell us at some point how you found the forum (googling, facebook, wikipedia, etc.) even that small amount of information would be helpful. And of course anything else you'd like to share can help us tailor conversations to your particular interests.

Quote from Matt

I would say yes to three outlines…

Matt I am not quite sure what this refers to?

Are you pointing to a chart or outline that shows a comparison of types of Buddhism and the ideas that all share? If so or you know of such a thing that would be useful.

It wouldn't be very productive to trace each minor sect into their own detailed twists and turns, but it would be productive to develop references as to what the major groupings share.

Joshua's outline was so good we need a copy here. It's not well formatted like the PDF, but good enough:

Chapter 1 Outline

I. Begins In Media Res, in the middle of things

A. Theon’s Soliloquoy

i. Appeal to the gods

ii. "Corrupting the youth"

iii. "Forsaking the Portico

B. Characteristics of the "Gargettian", per Timocrates

i. Blasphemer, Seducer, Deceiver

ii. Master of "cursed cermonies of riot and impiety"

iii. "nocturnal horrors"

II. Meeting the Stranger

A. Theon leaves the noisy crowded city, for the restful peace of nature

i. Seats himself by the Cephisus

ii. Interrupted by the gentle sound of footsteps

iii. Extensive description of the (evident) sage

III. Their Conversation

A. On Zeno

i. "a school of real virtue"

ii. "I had rather be the companion than the master"

iii. Theon; "I have looked upon Zeno with admiration and despair"

iv. "He who but admires virtue, yields her but half her due"

v. Can we rival Zeno? Yes: with;

1. Innocence

2. Sensibility

3. Enthusiasm

4. Ambition

5. Courage

6. Will

vi. All men cannot be poets and philosophers, but can be virtuous

Cephisus-A river god. Father

of Eteocles, first mortal to

worship the three Graces,

attendants of Aphrodite (and

sometimes Apollo)
B. On Epicurus

i. "What a loss for man that you are not teacher in the garden"

ii. "...I shall never be seduced by the advocate of vice"

iii. "I (Epicurus) would have you attend all the schools, with a willing ear"

iv. Even the garden itself

C. On Timocrates

i. "To hear virtue denied? Vice advocated? Atheism professed? Nocturnal Orgies!?"

ii. "I (Epicurus) should apprehend Timocrates to be a little mistaken"

iii. And quite possibly a liar

1. It is easy to get away with lies when you tell absurdities

iv. The first and last thing is to think for yourself

D. "I am Epicurus

Quote from Don

And I concur that the list of + and - is a valid practice but it's not "setting before the eyes."

Well I didn't really mean to restrict the activity to words as much as I meant that when you envision the option you document it like on a check off list. But that's probably not the issue you guys are referring to. How do you envision "setting before the eyes"?

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We definitely have a truce!

The "Life is Short, Pleasure is the good, and I want all the pleasure that I can get at a price in pain that I find reasonable" group are invited to dig in here and work with us to reconstruct a viable modern implementation of Epicurean philosophy.

The "Tranquilist" camp has my best wishes, and those who are open minded and still thinking about that issue are welcome to study with us here. But those who are committed Tranqulism are ultimately welcome to post elsewhere, because Tranquilism (or any form of Humanism or other philosophy or religion that doesn't posit "Pleasure" to be the highest good) is something that I respectfully have to insist isn't compatible with Epicurean philosophy.

But I really don't expect that to be a problem or cause many hard feelings. Those who confront the issue, and come to realize that they are committed to the logical position that something other than Pleasure is the highest good, usually have no problem realizing that their project isn't consistent with what we're doing here.

Thank you thank you thank you! That will take the pressure off my stream of consciousness approach.

I have never found anything from Sedley that isn't worthwhile to read. I wish he'd done his own translations or his own equivalentto DeWitt's task of setting out the whole philosophy in one place. At this point he's the only academic I am aware of who could really attack that and do it justice.

On solitary vs teacher-student, since I am still viewing this as a very simple issue, I would say the answer would likely be either.

Either alone, or with a teacher (and I can certainly see that advantages of having a teacher or at least a friend to talk to) the way to reason through any situation would be to turn the possibilities over in your mind and identify them as best you can. For a very obvious example, when evaluating which course of several to apply, sitting down and preparing a chart of the pluses and minus of each option. Which brings to mind that i still like at time today to use a pen and paper to write things down, and I find that the act of writing seems to solidify my connection with the thought. People talk about that as muscle memory or something,right? Maybe there's something analogous about visualizing that also helps make the issues real.

Quote from Don

Would a blissful, pleasure-filled eternity get old? If every variety of pleasure could be experienced eventually in infinite time by an incorruptible being/spirit/entity/god, wouldn't pleasure get old? Is that one reason we don't need an infinite life to experience the most pleasurable life?

I am not going to be able to offer it in this post, but this is where I think there is one of those "logical" answers which may not be satisfactory to everyone. What we perceive as boredom may be in fact be a deficiency in us (such as our aging) that a more highly evolved being would also have been able to dispose of, just as with other sources of pain.

Not gonna represent that this is anywhere near a complete answer but it's something I bet could be reconstructed within our existing framework of Epicurean textual knowledge and wouldn't be hopeless task - at least from a "logical" perspective.

Quote from Marco

About depression:

‘…Nor can one live wisely, honorably, and justly without living pleasantly..’. PD 5

So, someone who is depressed should ask himself: ‘Where was I not living wisely/prudently, not honorably or not justly’ and change that.

Marco (and to comment on recent other points):

I think what we are zeroing in on is that there are multiple causes for depression. Some of those causes are "logicial" caused by holding bad premises (worries about the gods, about death, about being confused over the goal of life).

On the other hand there are medical / clinical causes that are beyond the control of "changing your thinking" to help.

The trick is to distinguish between the two: Epicurus has lots to say and lots to help on the first category. On the second category, the prudent thing to do is to figure out that the problem is medical and you need professional help.

And unfortunately often in the case of category two, it's hard to self-diagnose and realize or accept that we need professional help. That's where friends need to use the art of persuasion to the extent possible to encourage outside help.

"So, someone who is depressed should ask himself: ‘Where was I not living wisely/prudently, not honorably or not justly’ and change that."

So yes, that question needs to be asked, but people need to to be ready from the very beginning to realize that their own choices "may" not be the cause of their problems.

In addition to what Joshua said, we only finished 63, so the Sedley article should be still applicable for next week!

Reminder - our first meeting of the A Few Days In Athens Book Review is tonight at 8:00 PM Eastern USA Time. Zoom link will be posted about a half hour prior to the meeting!

Thanks for that work! Sounds in most cases like the meaning is essentially "Think about the consequences..." Or "imagine for a moment the consequences..." Of s particular course of action?

Thanks for that Titus! Are you planning to expand this or would you like commentary or questions?

Yes they do! And that is a large part of the reason so large a number on the Facebook page are so weighted toward Stoicism - they are already so depressed that they are looking for answers anywhere they can find them, and as a result they really aren't interested in the details of the philosophy beyond that.

As is my policy I am not suggesting that anyone here is who not currently on facebook go over there for this thread. However for those of you on Facebook who are interested in the topic of depression, we have this thread currently going on. I approved the general question and then went away and I see there is quite a back and forth. Not a lot of it is productive other than the posts from people who are our regulars, such as Nate and Holly Graves (a regular at Facebook). Just in case someone wants to reference it in the future here is the link. We probably need to take some of Nate's and other good answers and develop more of a thread here:

We don't have a FAQ entry on depression. Should we? If we can develop a good strong answer here we can create a FAQ entry and point it to this thread.

Frequently Asked Questions - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com