Posts by Cassius

It was called to my attention today that we don't have much here in terms of reviews of Hiram's book. We really ought to add more commentary in this thread, since a lot of people come into contact with it.

I have a lot I could say about this book but let me be brief for the moment. Hiram put a lot of work into this and into his other work, and there's a lot to be gained from reading it. However it is important to keep in mind what this book is not:

1. It is not a full and complete introduction to Epicurean philosophy. For that, I strongly recommend DeWitt's "Epicurus and His Philosophy."
2. It is not a detailed commentary on some particular aspect of Epicurean philosophy. For that, you will want to consult one of the many academic articles you can find searching JSTOR or Academia.com.
3. It is not a "compare and contrast" book that explores in detail the differences and similarities between Epicurus and competing philosophies and doctrines. Hiram covers a number of traditions that he feels to be compatible with Epicurean philosophy, and he makes recommendations on how someone might want to consider pursuing them. But it's not a deep discussion of the merits or demerits of other approaches and whether they are ultimately logically consistent with Epicurus.

Hiram's book is in my view much more of a "self-help" book that people who are somewhat familiar with a variety of other traditions besides Epicurus may find helpful in their own pursuit of techniques to improve their lives. When read in that way I think Hiram's book is helpful. I have a copy myself and don't mind including it on reading lists for people who are interested in this approach.

But I do want to caution people against thinking that Hiram is giving, or even attempting to give, and exhaustive analysis of the details of Epicurean philosophy and how it compares with competing Greek or non-Greek philosophies. If you approach it looking for that information you may end up being confused about the issues that Hiram chooses to emphasize as against what you read in Lucretius, or in Epicurus' own letters, or in Diogenes Laertius or the other ancient sources.

People who come across this thread are encouraged to post their own thoughts about "Tending the Epicurean Garden" as that will likely be of great use to those who read it. And especially - if you have questions or concerns while reading it - please don't hesitate to post here in this thread and we'll deal with them as they occur to you.

How do my current thoughts compare to what I wrote on another venue seven years ago? I think you'll see some of the same points in an earlier form, but I am more cautious about recommending it today:

Quote

Jul 17, 2014 Cassius Amicus

This is an excellent book focused on how you can apply ancient Epicurean principles to live a happier life in the modern world. Hiram Crespo is the founder of the Society of Epicurus, and this is his first book, explaining his suggestions for living according to the principles of Epicureanism. This is not an academic treatise or a primer on basic Epicurean doctrines, but a practical guide written for general audiences. The book explains Epicurean views in context with similar views from numerous other traditions, and shows how techniques from a variety of sources can be combined to assist in living more pleasurably. The book is well written and well organized, providing essentially a "self-help" approach with lots of specific advice. This is one of the few absolutely pro-Epicurean books to have been written in the last several hundred years. As far as I know, one has to go back to Frances Wright's "A Few Days In Athens" for another book which comes out swinging in its unreserved advocacy of Epicureanism as a lifestyle and as a philosophy. One can read this book without any knowledge at all of the history or doctrine of Epicurus, because the author provides a good measure of both history and teachings in the course of the book. However the reader who is new to Epicureanism would profit from consulting websites such as http://www.epicurus.info/, http://www.epicurus.net/, and of course Crespo's own http://www.societyofepicurus.com/ for more background on the specifics of Epicurean ideas. It appears that Crespo's work as an advocate for Epicurean ideas is just getting started, so hopefully there will be more to come from the same author. (less)

Quote from smoothiekiwi

Maybe my perception of Epicureanism has been shaped by Wright, but I still believe that there's something I misunderstand from this philosophy- and I'm trying to figure out, what.

Also --- I do think if Wright were someone's main frame of reference, there is a possibility of going off track due to her emphasis on "observation" and her unwillingness to go further in the direction of Epicurus' epistemology.

I myself haven't gotten as far as I would like in analyzing Philodemus' On Signs / Methods of Inference, but I think that Epicurus would conclude that she went somewhat too far in Skepticism and that she did not absorb, or at least embrace, his ideas on when it is proper to reach conclusions and on what subjects.

Thank you for that intro!

I hope you will have DeWitt on your list, and that you will consider the Nikolsky article and the Gosling & Taylor book thereafter.

As many eyes as we can get on these issues the better off we are!

It's interesting that you were so impacted by the Frances Wright book. It's incredibly impressive as you say, but in itself it leads to some interesting issues (that we have some threads on here at the forum). SInce you are focusing on its attack on Stoicism, I think you would also be interested in the sections of Cicero's "On Ends" that are attacks on Stoicism. So many people consider him to have been a stoic but those sections of On Ends make some excellent anti-Stoic points from an unexpected direction.

Based on what you wrote if I were you I would probably NOT read the full Lucretius poem next - I would read DeWitt and the ones I mentioned above to further assist in the overall framework.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

Not in the sense that pleasure isn't the thing we should employ to determine what is good or bad, but because there's something resulting out of this belief that transforms a regular man into Gandalf, so to speak.

It might be that further explanation of the Gandalf analogy would be helpful. I am familiar with Lord of the Rings but not enough to be sure exactly what you mean or draw from the analogy.

Great point. I know that in general discussion (such as below) that shorthand is used, but maybe the texts don't really justify it?

PD26. Of desires, all that do not lead to a sense of pain, if they are not satisfied, are not necessary, but involve a craving which is easily dispelled when the object is hard to procure, or they seem likely to produce harm.

PD29. Among desires, some are natural (and necessary, some natural) but not necessary, and others neither natural nor necessary, but due to idle imagination.

Quote from Don

In fact, I would posit that most of our everyday desires fall into the "natural but not necessary" category, but they do add variety to our lives

Yes and the highlights another peril - that if thinking that "natural but not necessary" desires as a rule should not be pursued because they are not "necessary." Such a general rule would not in my opinion by Epicurean, but Stoic/ascetic.

And I don't think any (or many) people here would infer such a rule, because we hit on that point so hard here in this forum. But in the outside world of people who read Epicurus I think that's a very real problem. They infer that Epicurus suggested we should pursue ONLY natural and necessary desires, even though he himself manifestly did not do that in his own case, nor would it be logical to reach such a conclusion in the first place given the rest of his philosophy.

And if someone wants to argue that point (which they often do in outside Epicurean discussions) I would ask them among many other things: Exactly how many of the slaves which Epicurus held at his death were "necessary?"

Welcome @smoothiekiwi !

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Don

unsatisfying nature of the empty desires, like "empty" calories, empty handed, empty headed, etc.

Right. Those in themselves are good qualifying explanations. They exist, but they are deceptive as to final result and all the implications that go with them.

Quote from Don

Maybe desires that come to nothing instead of "empty" desires

I am not wedded to any particular formulation but yes I do think that has a more meaningful ring to it. So we could be talking about an "idiom" here that explains the awkwardness I am sensing in the single word "empty"

I haven't thought of that "idiom" word lately in our context here, but I was just using it in another context earlier this week about someone who was raised overseas and who expressed confusion over the meaning of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

Maybe our lexicon or FAQ ought to include a list of actual or probable Epicurean "idioms"

I noticed in the text from Torquatus while editing this week's podcast:

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[60] There is also death which always hangs over them like the stone over Tantalus, and again superstition, which prevents those who are tinged by it from ever being able to rest. Moreover they have no memories for their past good fortune, and no enjoyment of their present; they only wait for what is to come, and as this cannot but be uncertain, they are wasted with anguish and alarm; and they are tortured most of all when they become conscious, all too late, that their devotion to wealth or military power, or influence, or fame has been entirely in vain. For they achieve none of the pleasures which they ardently hoped to obtain and so underwent numerous and severe exertions.

Don I presume this ("entirely in vain") is pretty much the same sentiment we are discussing? If so maybe we can find some points of comparison with the Latin from this section.

Well what you are saying there is that the desire for anything other than pleasure itself is just a means to something else, but again power, money, and fame do all have their legitimate uses , I would argue, even under the strictest Epicurean analysis.

You can say that the desire for UNLIMITED amounts of those things are "empty" as impossible to obtain, but if t hat is what you are saying then to be clear you are saying that it is the UNLIMITED aspect which is impossible to attain and therefore "vain" "delusive" or "whatever words you'd like to use.

But none of that is self-explanatory just by using the word "empty"

Quote from Kalosyni

Objects that can hold things (boxes, cups, etc.) can at times be empty.

Ideas that can hold things (truth, validity, reason, accuracy) can at times be empty.

I picked K's comment to quote largely at random, but the point I think is important is there.

I think this is important because I get the idea that in conjunction with discussions (us I mean, not Epicurean necessarily) which reference "empty" there it is also frequently implied that certain types of desires are ALWAYS "empty." That may be as much of my problem with this phrasing as anything else.

Is anyone thinking that there is a list of desires that is "ALWAYS" empty? I am thinking of the classic fame, power, riches, etc. Those may strike me as always dangerous, but NOT always "empty" and some degree of fulfillment of those is generally necessary in life.

So what I am suggesting as part of this discussion that we make clear the "relative nature" and "subjectivity" of these issues, because if we cross the line into saying "XXXX desire is ALWAYS empty" I have a feeling we are on that slippery slope to Platonism. That may apply to "I want to live forever" which is physically impossible for humans, but I am not aware of too many such desires that might be physically impossible to at least get some benefit from pursuing.

There's a lot of subtlety here to be considered.

I do not see myself arguing against what you guys are saying. I see this as an issue similar to use of the term "gods" which does not in American English convey the meaning and definition that Epicurus held to apply to gods.

We cannot use the term "God" without explanation any more than we can use the word "empty" without explanation if we expect people to understand us.

So I see myself as agreeing with your conclusion as long as you are annexing to your conclusion the explanation that you are providing here.

So I would say that "Empty" in American English does not convey the meaning we are wishing to convey. I don't see that you are yet suggesting a short phrase or combination of words that does the job, but that should be the goal, so that the word "empty" does not confuse people just like an unexplained use of the word "gods" confuses people

In both situations, clear speech and meaning requires explanation, just like we cannot throw the original Greek words at Americans and expect them to be understood.

Quote from Don

Yes. The desire exists. There's just nothing to back it up

Yes that emphasizes how I do not think this terminology makes sense. If you want to say that the type of desire cannot be definition be filled for some reason, then that's one thing, but the word "empty" seems to me to have nothing to do with the discussion.

If we feel the desire, it exists. Maybe the issue is in the definition of desire. I consider a desire to be a feeling, not concept. I "feel a desire" - I don't "feel a concept."

If I can feel something, then it exists, and the word "empty" comes dangerously close to asserting that the feeling does not exist, which would almost certainly be inconsistent with the rest of Epicurean philosophy.

Quote from Don

Possibly a more apt metaphor is the old Western movie set where there appears to be a main street of the town, but it's only a line of facades. The facades may be indistinguishable from actual buildings, but walk through them and you're in the desert. There's nothing there. I

Yes that is probably a better analogy, but not one that I would associate with the word "empty." There IS something there, the false front is there.

I don't say that to be disagreeable, though, but only to emphasize the height that will be necessary to climb.

Carry on as I am looking forward to this! That's what "gods among men" are supposed to do - talk about things like this!

These are great topics to discuss so keep it coming!

I agree with your ultimate analysis of void, but it does have the one characteristic of giving a "place" for atoms to be, if I remember Herodotus and Lucretius correctly.

And THESE / THIS is exactly on the list of things we are supposed to discuss, like infinity, right?

Here is another aspect of this: The "leaking vessel" analogy is clearly an important part of Epicurean analogy, as illustrated at least once in the opening of Lucretius Book Vi.

So the discussion of "filling vessels" is an important aspect of discussing how Epicurus taught to lead a life of pleasure.

I would argue that the key question is what is it about these desires/vessels, other than that they start off empty or are empty at a moment in time, that prevents them from being filled?

The issue cannot be solely that they are "empty" at a moment in time.

And even more so in regard to any analogy of a vessel. Vessels are MADE to be filled up, in human terms, so the first image that this analogy is making to a normal human is going to be incomplete unless there is something about the nature of this particular vessel that makes it impossible to fill (leaking, for example).

Quote from Don

The void doesn't move and it extends infinitely. The atoms will never fill the void.

I am not sure that I agree that the void doesn't move, at least in terms of a particular location. You CAN fill a vessel with atoms, can you not, and that displaces the void in that particular location.

As to atoms in total never filling the void in total, absolutely we are in agreement.

But these ambiguities in the use of void/empty are troublesome and would be better clarified.

I feel sure that in the Greek the meaning WAS clear, and it is in our English formulations that the problem mainly exists.

Quote from Don

So, the common thread of κενός is void, empty, not able to be filled.

The main problem I have is that without some further explanation, the "void and empty" do not in my mind go together logically with "not able to be filled."

The "not able to be filled" carries more meaning than "empty", but simply being void and empty does not (standing alone) because the nature of the atoms and void is that they move around, and considering any particular space at a particular time, there's no necessary reason why that space cannot be filled.

Not sure I am being clear yet, and i am not faulting Epicurus, but i think our English usage of "empty" is probably missing the point, without more added to explain WHY it is not able to be filled. And since the allegation in the first place is apparently that the thing is "not able to be filled" then just saying that it is empty adds little or nothing to the statement.

If something is not able to be filled then the question would be "WHY NOT?"

Wow Welcome again SimonC and thank you for that introduction. That's a pithy way of hitting the high points of good information about your background to get things started, so thank you!

Your intro sounds a lot like what I would have written myself years ago.

The main thing that occurs to me to say is that with your attitude, and at your level of reading, I really hope you will post your reactions as you read through more material. It's extremely helpful to hear reactions from people as they read more, not just here, but other places, about Epicurus and how he fits into the general philosophic picture.

And as a layperson with just a couple of years of reading experience you're probably a very good example of what I think would probably be the type of person we tend to target with this forum: Enough reading to have some general familiarity with the issues, but not so much that the person has become jaded and cynical - which is what my experience is tends to happen to people when they get too deep into modern philosophy from a purely "academic" approach.

Look forward to hearing from you in the future.