Posts by Cassius

Episode 121 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. In this episode we talk more about the atoms and we introduce the subject of their relationship to the soul. Please let us know any comments or questions you have in the thread below, and please be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your telephone or other podcast aggregator.

Quote from Don

And it doesn't negate Epicurus's basic premise that we have to rely on our senses.

In addition to that, I think there's lot of material in the discussion of "images" that would relate to the same point. What we perceive over time (whether through the eyes or through the other theory of images) gets used to develop the patterns (or "models") that we then recognize.

Here's a random quote, Humphries translating "model" rather than "pattern" but probably a similar point:

Furthermore, where would the gods derive a scheme

For making things, how would they understand

What men were to be like, so gods could know,

Or only imagine, how to fashion them?

Or how would they comprehend the principles

Of primal bodies, what was possible

Through changed arrangements, unless nature gave

A model for creation?

Here's Bailey with pattern:

[181] Further, how was there first implanted in the gods a pattern for the begetting of things, yea, and the concept of man, so that they might know and see in their mind what they wished to do, or in what way was the power of the first-beginnings ever learnt, or what they could do when they shifted their order one with the other, if nature did not herself give a model of creation?

Thank you for saying hello Onenski and it is good to have you here! Please look around and I hope you will feel comfortable responding to existing threads or starting new ones of your own.

Welcome @singingdata Please Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their accounts will be deleted. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourselves further and join one or more of our conversations.

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

That's a legitimate concern and something we need to consider in the mix, but you are right that the goal is opportunities for friendship and we need to think creatively.

Maybe the biggest issue is that the nature of the world is that people thrive best in groups for protection and for happiness, and the need for that is at least as much today as inn the ancient world.

Renelisa I like your sense of humor! Very highly qualified to be a pamphleteer and disqualified from being a Stoic!

In terms of "special readings" it would probably be "fair use" to play relatively short excepts from the Charleton Griffin reading of Lucretius, so that is one source of special material that would not take a lot of preparation, as we can easily identify especially important passages from Lucretius and listen to him if we don't have time to prepare a version ourselves.

That's an example - what are other options?

What are the possibilities for "special"?

Specially prepared online readings like Kalosyni did last time?

Let's throw out and list some possibilities because it's hard to say where to start.

I think all of us agree that we don't want to tend toward "cultish" in any way, but there ought to be ways to be "inspirational" without being cultish.

Having too many people is a good problem to have - much better than the reverse.

We ought to consider various ways to be sure that everyone gets to participate while at the same time making sure that the time spent is "quality" and we don't get sidetracked or have only a few have time to speak.

I think we found out last night that by having everyone introduce themselves, then say something in closing, and then try to involve everyone in the brief discussion of the principal doctrine, we consumed a full hour just with the eight people who were there.

Maybe one option is to balance Wednesday with the purpose of the Sunday session - (1) make the Sunday session weighted a little more toward "the regulars" discussing the chapter before we open the floor to discussion and (2) weight the Wednesday session more explicitly for question/answer and discussion, with maybe some of all of the topics pre-set so people will know what to expect.

A lot depends on how many people attend, and we probably need to be willing to adjust the format on the spot each night to account for the number of attendees.

According to the Mcgilivray article the texts indicate that inviting people to the 20th was a major way of introducing newer people. IMHO we don't have the luxury or situation to do that only once a month - there is too much lost ground to make up, too many challenges to getting started with regular activities, and at the same time the technology available to us makes the whole thing much easier.

I hope people will throw out any and every idea that comes to them. A key part of the picture is that everyone doesn't need to do everything - I am beginning to get stretched a little thin myself. People can set up new projects with new project leaders at any time. A large part of the purpose of this forum is to make that kind of coordination and assistance easier.

We need ideas for formatting and conducting the meeting (such as agendas, telling people to use the "raise hand" to speak, asking them to type in the chat window, etc......) that will make them more productive.

It's already obvious that we have a time zone issue, and that it would be logical and desirable for there to be geographic groups by continent and over time more local to have the most convenient time for everyone. Today we've got maybe ten people in the world who are available to participate in something like this, but over time the goal (for someone) ought to be meetings like this by time zone, eventually state, region, etc. There doesn't need to be - and shouldn't be eventually - any kind of central planning.

Welcome Onenski ! Please Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their accounts will be deleted. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourselves further and join one or more of our conversations.

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

By my count we had eight people - meaning three visitors in addition to our regulars. We spent most of the first half hour just introducing outselves (which should not take so long in the future) and then we spent the rest of the hour discussing principle doctrine one from Nate's compilation.

We need to set up threads for each meeting to be sure we cover any topics that people want to ask about. What else do we need to do to enhance the experience?

Feedback on session one? I thought it was VERY successful - a great start!

Not disruptive at all please join when you can!

Kalosyni thank you for posting that update and especially the link to Nate's list of alternate translations. Have those in front of us when we discuss each one is a very good idea.

Posted at Facebook:

thank you isychos - hope to see you

Quote from Don

Which is exactly what I was trying to provide in my letter to Menoikeus

Yes exactly. This has to be a team effort and not everyone will be able or inclined to do everything and they shouldn't try.

It will always be beyond the capability or inclination or some to translate the original Greek -- or grow an original Greek philosopher's beard!

No doubt there is going to be a "shakedown" period where we figure out what works best, but Kalosyni and Scott and Joshua and Martin have been very good about all sorts of suggestions and I think we have a good core to launch this as a new initiative. I hope those who have not attended in the past will consider attending and adding it to their routine. No preparation necessary, no video necessary, no recording -- no pressure of any kind - just an opportunity to "socialize."

Yes the full article speculates that the "missionary" viewpoint expanded over time during the Roman period, and I think correctly. We never will likely want to be shouting at passersby from the street corner, but the world increasingly offers lots of opportunities for us to claim a space in the "marketplace of ideas."

Catherine Wilson is an interesting case as she seems a little more willing to break away from the orthodoxy on Epicurus.

However I don't get the feeling that she is as much an Academic as she is a writer for more general audiences, so maybe she has more flexibility to follow her intuitions.

My take is that she thinks she can push the envelope on Epicurean philosophy toward more popular success (at least in publishing) if she combines it with a good sprinkling of politics to make it sound more relevant to modern audiences. She might be right about that to some extent, but I doubt it will win her much endorsement in Academia. If someone wants to justify their politics through philosophy, most of the Academics realize that it's more efficient to focus on the mainline Platonic-Aristotelian position, where they can rest their desired uniformity of position on "forms" or "ideas" or "essences."

It's really hard to claim eternal significance for a particular set of political ideas when the only things that are eternally the same are things like the size, shape, and weight of the atoms. its much easier to claim that one's own views equal "virtue" and that your opponents views are "evil" and the anti-Epicurean philosophies are the home of that approach.