Posts by Cassius

Thank you for starting this thread Godfrey! I think there's a lot of useful thought there and I agree with your direction.

Quote from Godfrey

But what about the limit of desires? Reading the PDs and the Letter to Menoikeus, it becomes clear that desires can be unlimited, which differentiates them from both pleasure and pain. This is why the categories of desires are important to understand. These categories are a tool to help us to impose our own limits on our desires, which have no natural limit other than the "natural and necessary" desires. This then becomes one of the key methods to increase pleasure and reduce pain.

As Joshua might say, however, having identified that at least some desires can be unlimited, and that a limit has to be imposed upon them, we are, "only at the beginning" of the analysis.

Always referencing VS63 that a life that is too frugal can be just as mistaken as a life that is too extravagant, the knowledge that we need to impose a limit on some desires only gets us started. Where is that limit? How do we determine where it is? Is it possible that there are any absolute rules on limiting desires, or is it all contextual? There are probably many other questions about the application of the question.

So once we all agree, as I presume we do, that at least some desires are limitless and it will produce a more pleasurable life if we self-impose our own limit, how do we go about doing that without falling into the trap of thinking that the answer as to how much to limit is simply "limit all desires as much as possible?"

Because that "limit all desires as much as possible, and don't even think about pursuing anything that is not absolutely natural and necessary" is the clear message I get from modern writers. I don't get that from the full body of Epicurus' work at all, but focusing on "limit all desires as much as possible, and don't even think about pursuing anything that is not absolutely natural and necessary" is an excellent way to limit enthusiasm for Epicurus to Buddhists and Stoics, two groups that I would maintain are polar opposites of Epicurus.

Quote from Don

On perceived errors in Wikipedia: We can all be Wikipedia editors and contribute content, External links, and references to all relevant articles. Nothing stopping us but time and inertia (two powerful forces btw)

I realize that I refer to the Wikipedia situation regularly, but that's really a proxy for "the great majority of the acadermic and non-academic world that has written about Epicurus in the 20th/21st century," with few exceptions, notably including DeWitt, which DeWitt himself complained about in his intro to his book.

I am in pretty much agreement with everything Don wrote, as I expected I would be. The elephant in the room remains the "perspective" issue in which the commentators on Epicurus have elevated "ataraxia" (not so much aponia) as the goal of life, and they have either explicitly or implicitly equated that which a state of contemplative satisfaction which could equally be attained in essentially a very similar way by an oyster or by a healthy adult in his or her prime - i.e.: by reducing desires to an absolute minimum to sustain life, and to cultivate pleasures only as they are absolutely natural and necessary and require zero or an absolute minimum of pain to achieve.

It seems to me that Cicero's major criticism of Epicurean philosophy as not acceptable for the camp or the senate involved the presumption that Epicureans would pursue sensual pleasure and shun the required activities that are necessary to maintain a healthy and safe community.

Cicero brought out the apparent problems with holding "absence of pain" to be the highest goal, but presumably because he did not see many Epicureans of his time withdrawing from society to live in caves on bread and water, he didn't consider the logical conclusion of "absence of pain" to be worth spending much time combatting.

Once the Epicureans faded (or were driven) completely from the world stage, it hasn't been so necessary in recent centuries for the Academic majority to contend with people using Epicurean philosophy to justify actions about which the (the Academic majority) disapproved. In the modern world very few people take Epicurus seriously on his full "worldview" and the only point of interest for the majority is making sure that Epicurean views are held down into the mainstream of "humanist" philosophers, all of whom agree that there is a single "good" to which we need to aspire. And that has proven very easy to do by elevating "ataraxia" rather than "pleasure" to the central focus of Epicurean discussion. If you demote pleasure to an inconvenient sideline, and hold up an untranslated word of uncertain meaning as a proxy for the same kind of detachment and apathy which Stoicism and other philosophies praise, then Epicurus remains a footnote to history forever.

The art of taking things out of context and elevating them to a role that they were never intended to assume is really at the heart of a lot of tactical "lawyerly" argument, so it isn't a surprise that Cicero would use the tactic to skewer Epicurus in the same way he was skewering corrupt Senators who plundered their assigned provinces or who aspired to take over the Roman republic.

And it's not surprising that the Academic world is comfortable making Epicurean "absence of pain" into a twin sister of Stoic apathy and detachment.

These issues aren't going to be solved by editing Wikipedia entries, even though that effort would be worthwhile. I personally doubt its success in doing anything more than getting a footnote that the controversy exists, since the "modern consensus" is probably 90% plus of the people who write about Epicurus. And I am not sure the number is not more like 99%.

And of course there are lots of quotes from Epicurus that we shouldn't measure our success by whether "the crowd" agrees with us or not. The best we can do is be sure we study the points and articulate them clearly when we have the chance, like we're doing in this thread, and then follow the implications of our research to put them into presentation form so we don't have to reinvent the wheel every time these issues come up.

Your earlier Pink Circle diagram for "absence of pain" was excellent. Looking forward to more inspiration like that !

Thanks to Don and Joshua for catching some very poor editing on my part of this episode 130 which was released on 7/16. I have gone through and re-edited the episode and I think corrected most if not all of those problems. I'm not sure what happened but there were several instances where clips were inserted out of order and the sequence then made no sense whatsoever. That's separate and apart - of course - from when I normally say things that make no sense whatsoever.

If anyone listening to this episode hears any major issues in sequence after this post (being made at 8:10 AM EDT on 7/17, please let me know. The original file on Spreaker has been replaced, so downloads from here should be correct. If your podcast manager downloaded the episode previously you will want to re-download to get the latest version.

Thank you ReneLiza and good to hear from you again!

With an extended discussion like this it's easy to lose track of what points are agreed and what are in dispute.

No one seems to question that Epicurus at least occasionally used the term katastematic and kinetic.

The clearest point of contention to anything that has been under discussion is the sort of "Wikipedia" version that Epicurus held that the ultimate goal of life is katastematic pleasure.

I don't gather that Don is advocating for that position but at this point in the conversation we ought to regroup and clarify the implications of the respective positions.

Don what would you say are the implications of your position (which at this point I gather to be mainly only that you are thinking that Epicurus considered the distinction more significant than Gosling & Taylor and Nikolsky do)?

Quote from Nate

De Witt seems to think that this distinction (between "static" and "kinetic" pleasure) was profound:

My interpretation of that, Nate, is that DeWitt is saying that indeed the designation of normal functioning without high-speed activity is definitely profound because that is what allows us to say that pleasure is continuous.

I see the issue of whether this "normal functioning" is katastematic or kinetic, and whether the division makes any difference, as a totally different issue.

If you define pleasure and pain as the only two states, then BY DEFINITION when you aren't feeling pain you are feeling pleasure, and that's regardless of what you happen to be doing or thinking about at the time.

Quote from Don

If that's the concern, we would arguably have to throw out the majority of fragments and even Cicero since he also didn't necessarily cite context but cherry picked what he wanted.

Well that is definitely a consideration as to all the fragments. Everyone was cherrypicking to suit their purposes, and even Diogenes Laertius was apparently following a system so he could present similar material on all the different philosophers.

Quote from Don

Not from my reading. The original specifically says "And Epicurus in On Choices says as follows..." Then gives the quote.

I didn't mean to dispute that the texts present this as a quote, just to point out that it is Diogenes Laertius presenting it out of context, so more than just relying on him to present it accurately, we're relying on him to have judged the context correctly.

Quote from Nate

t "pleasures would never differ from one another" (KD 9)

That's a good one to remember in this context.

Quote from Nate

Still ... there must be a significant reason this description exists.

To me, the issue of its being a response to Plato holding that pleasure could not be continuous is more than sufficient to justify its existence.

Lots of good deep thinking in this thread so thank you again to all who are putting time into it.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but in addition to being "rare" this is a statement by Diogenes Laertius, which we may presume to be a quote, but of which we don't for sure have an original sentence by Epicurus, or surrounding context.

That observation (absence of a clear original where we see Epicurus making the point in full context) is a key aspect of the criticism of Nikolsky/Gosling/Taylor) in pointing out that it is Diogenese Laertius and Cicero who bring this issue to our attention, not its prominence in original works of Epicurus or core Epicureans.

So we if are categorizing the main objections, they include, not necessarily in this order:

- Rare at best.

- Not featured as important in clear writings by core Epicureans

....and then combined with....

- All of the textual consistency issues that arise from any implication that Epicurus valued "katastematic" more (or even equal to) than "kinetic" pleasure.

Wow that is quite a collection thank you Nate!

Quote from Nate

For this reason, many scholars look for other ways to interpret the distinction. The debate

about this topic has produced a dizzying array of interpretations. For the purposes of this

chapter, I will describe just a few of the most prominent proposals.

THAT (underlined sentence) is for sure!!!

After reading all that I am still at the point ---

"Categorize the pleasures and experience them however you see fit, the guide of life is the feeling of pleasure, not virtue, not religion, not abstract logic."

I think we're generally in agreement except for this part....

Quote from Don

Furthermore, wherever Epicurus is writing about calm, freedom from pain or trouble in body or mind, remembering or anticipating pleasure, etc. that he's writing about katastematic pleasure whether the word gets used or not.

...because I see no evidence in the core Epicurean texts that the Epicureans got around to mentioning the word "katastematic" except at best in rare instances. The idea that "absence of pain" equals katastematic pleasure seems to be an unwanted assumption. When the focus on life is pleasure, and you crowd out pains by replacing them with pleasures of all types, then there is no need to be concerned about what would happen if you attempted to bury yourself in a sensory deprivation chamber and somehow drained yourself if pains without replacing those pains with some form of mental or physical activity.

Cicero is attempting to go back to Plato's argument that pleasure cannot be continuous by insisting that if you aren't being stimulated in some way then you aren't experiencing pleasure. The very example he gives - of engaging in philosophic debate - has no need to be considered a hard case or a neutral state, because the mind is engaged in intense activity on an important subject - just like we are now - and we are experiencing a definite type of pleasure in hunting down the answers, even if there is much effort involved.

To me this argument from Cicero makes clear the problem in the whole "absence of pain" and "katastematic pleasure issue.". It is much more direct to consider all mental and physical consciousness of life to be pleasurable unless it involves significant pain, and thereby you never have to quibble about some "fancy pleasure" state that seems exotic and esoteric.

The discussion continues to convince me that the whole issue arises due to the desire of the anti-Epicureans to find a way to hijack Epicurus' focus on pleasure because they will not accept that pleasure as commonly understood is in fact desirable. They want to substitute their own "virtue-approved" definition for pleasure.

Epicurus had a clear and important reason for his sweeping definition of pleasure - to show how pleasure of some kind (including situations that seem to involve only calm reflection) is always available to be referenced as the guide of life. His enemies took this sweeping definition and decided to elevate the calm reflection part (which they consider themselves to be kings of) as the ultimate goal. They did this by taking Epicurus' accurate observation - that when you have filled your life full of pleasure you cannot add any more because you are full - and took it out of context to adopt the "absence of pain" part as if it were something in itself, which it is not.

It is essential and important to explain to people that Pleasure in life comes through any kind of positive mental or physical activity that you don't find painful, including calm reflection. The contrast is made vivid by comparing it with the nothingness of availability of feeling after death. That part I think we are all agreed on.

But is it necessary to explain as a part of core Epicurean teaching the difference between kinetic and katastematic? The core texts don't, and even Torquatus himself, in his main narrative explaining Epicurean ethics, does not so much as mention the issue. It is only when it is used as an attack point by Cicero that Torquatus may address it at all. Lucretius and Philodemus, devoted advocates of the core, are also silent on it.

The value I am seeing in this conversation is that it is reinforcing to me that the entire katastematic/ kinetic discussion needs to be ejected from presentations of core Epicurean philosophy. Its main use going forward into the future in the presentation of an Epicurean curriculum should be to teach advanced students how the argument was used over the last two thousand years to relegate Epicurus into the corner of being a philosopher for nursing homes, and which thereby ejected from the largest part of normal healthy life. In that context the discussion is absolutely essential.

If one forces Hercules to spend every moment of his life clipping his toenails then even the physical strength and mental a acuity of a Hercules becomes absolutely neutered. There is no better way to sap the vitality from Epicurus as a savior of mankind than to force him to spin around endlessly in a word game like a dog chasing its own tale. I fully believe that Cicero saw just that opportunity, and his example has been followed ever since. No Epicurus in the camp, no Epicurus in the Senate, and no Epicurus anywhere in real human life.

Episode 130 of the Lucretius Today podcast is now available. This week we continue with the letter to Pythocles and further discuss phenomena of the sun and moon. Lots of good epistemology discussion in this episode!

Quote from Don

"Iron sharpens iron" as the saying goes. Keep the questions coming!

Yes thank you Don - that is the key attitude and exactly the right frame of mind to bring to this discussion,

The current "mainstream' discussion of K/K issues strikes me as the opposite of iron - it's like jelly or worse - and something that people assert to be as important as this - to take the place of pleasure itself in the discussion of Epicurus - very much needs to be sharpened down to a fine point so that it can be placed in proper perspective.

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I know I seem like Negative Nellie here, but wouldn't the pleasure you get from planning and carrying out some activity in expectation of the reward that the activity will bring be something that has to ring of "action"? I thought that katastematic was supposedly implying "rest" or "static." When I am all wrapped up in building my moon rocket the expectation of getting into space may be the reward but I am certainly very involved in "action" during the building of the rocket.

Dividing things up like you are suggesting is a tempting way of categorizing things by "the time the reward is experienced," but "the timing of the reward" isn't anywhere suggested as relevant in any of the material we have been working from that DL or Cicero talk about as to "katastematic", is it?

Welcome to Episode One Hundred Thirty-One of Lucretius Today.

This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

I am your host Cassius, and together with our panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the ancient Epicurean texts, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

Today we continue Epicurus' Letter to Pythocles and we look at the implications of the Epicurean position on certain weather phenomena. Now let's join Joshua reading today's text:

BAILEY:

[99] Signs of the weather may occur owing to the coincidence of occasions, as happens with animals we can all see on earth, and also through alterations and changes in the atmosphere. For both these are in accordance with phenomena. But under what circumstances the cause is produced by this or that, we cannot perceive.

Clouds may be produced and formed both by the condensation of the atmosphere owing to compression by winds and by the interlacing of atoms clinging to one another and suitable for producing this result, and again by the gathering of streams from earth and the waters: and there are several other ways in which the formation of such things may not impossibly be brought about.

[100] And from them again rain may be produced if they are squeezed in one part or changed in another, or again by a downward current of wind moving through the atmosphere from appropriate places, a more violent shower being produced from certain conglomerations of atoms suited to create such downfalls.

Thunder may be produced by the rushing about of wind in the hollows of the clouds, as happens in vessels on earth, or by the reverberation of fire filled with wind inside them, or by the rending and tearing of clouds, or by the friction and bursting of clouds when they have been congealed into a form like ice: phenomena demand that we should say that this department of celestial events, just like them all, may be caused in several ways.

[101] And lightnings too are produced in several ways: for both owing to the friction and collision of clouds a conformation of atoms which produces fire slips out and gives birth to the lightning, and owing to wind bodies which give rise to this flash are dashed from the clouds: or compression may be the cause, when clouds are squeezed either by one another or by the wind. Or again it may be that the light scattered abroad from the heavenly bodies is taken in by the clouds, and then is driven together by the movement of the clouds and wind, and falls out through the clouds; or else light composed of most subtle particles may filter through the clouds, whereby the clouds may be set on fire by the flame and thunder produced by the movement of the fire.

[102] Or the wind may be fired owing to the strain of motion and its violent rotation, or clouds may be rent by wind and atoms fall out which produce fire and cause the appearance of lightning. And several other methods may easily be observed, if one clings always to phenomena and can compare what is akin to these things. Lightning precedes thunder in such a conformation of the clouds, either because at the moment when the wind dashes in, the formation of atoms which gives rise to lightning is driven out, but afterwards the wind whirls about and produces the reverberation; or because they both dash out at the same moment, but lightning moves at a higher speed towards us, and thunder comes after, as in the case of some things seen at a distance and producing blows.

[103] Thunderbolts may occur because there are frequent gatherings of wind, which whirls about and is fanned into a fierce flame, and then a portion of it breaks off and rushes violently on the places beneath, the breaking taking place because the regions approached are successively denser owing to the condensation of clouds, or as the result of the actual outburst of the whirling fire, in the same way that thunder may be produced, when the fire becomes too great and is too violently fanned by wind and so breaks through the cloud, because it cannot retreat to the next regions owing to the constant condensation of clouds one on the other.

[104] And thunderbolts may be produced in other ways too. Only superstition must be excluded, as it will, if one successfully follows the lead of seen phenomena to gain indications about the invisible.

Cyclones may be produced either by the driving down of a cloud into the regions below in the form of a pillar, because it is pushed by the wind gathered inside it and is driven on by the violence of the wind, while at the same time the wind outside impels it sideways; or by wind forming into circular motion, while mist is simultaneously thrust down from above; or when a great rush of wind takes place and cannot pass through sideways owing to the surrounding condensation of the atmosphere.

[105] And when the spout is let down on to the land, whirlwinds are produced in all the various ways in which their creation may occur owing to the movement of the wind, but if it reaches the sea it produces waterspouts.

HICKS

[99] "The signs in the sky which betoken the weather may be due to mere coincidence of the seasons, as is the case with signs from animals seen on earth, or they may be caused by changes and alterations in the air. For neither the one explanation nor the other is in conflict with facts, and it is not easy to see in which cases the effect is due to one cause or to the other.

"Clouds may form and gather either because the air is condensed under the pressure of winds, or because atoms which hold together and are suitable to produce this result become mutually entangled, or because currents collect from the earth and the waters; and there are several other ways in which it is not impossible for the aggregations of such bodies into clouds to be brought about.

[100] And that being so, rain may be produced from them sometimes by their compression, sometimes by their transformation; or again may be caused by exhalations of moisture rising from suitable places through the air, while a more violent inundation is due to certain accumulations suitable for such discharge. Thunder may be due to the rolling of wind in the hollow parts of the clouds, as it is sometimes imprisoned in vessels which we use; or to the roaring of fire in them when blown by a wind, or to the rending and disruption of clouds, or to the friction and splitting up of clouds when they have become as firm as ice. As in the whole survey, so in this particular point, the facts invite us to give a plurality of explanations.

[101] Lightnings too happen in a variety of ways. For when the clouds rub against each other and collide, that collocation of atoms which is the cause of fire generates lightning; or it may be due to the flashing forth from the clouds, by reason of winds, of particles capable of producing this brightness; or else it is squeezed out of the clouds when they have been condensed either by their own action or by that of the winds; or again, the light diffused from the stars may be enclosed in the clouds, then driven about by their motion and by that of the winds, and finally make its escape from the clouds; or light of the finest texture may be filtered through the clouds (whereby the clouds may be set on fire and thunder produced), and the motion of this light may make lightning;

[102] or it may arise from the combustion of wind brought about by the violence of its motion and the intensity of its compression; or, when the clouds are rent asunder by winds, and the atoms which generate fire are expelled, these likewise cause lightning to appear. And it may easily be seen that its occurrence is possible in many other ways, so long as we hold fast to facts and take a general view of what is analogous to them. Lightning precedes thunder, when the clouds are constituted as mentioned above and the configuration which produces lightning is expelled at the moment when the wind falls upon the cloud, and the wind being rolled up afterwards produces the roar of thunder; or, if both are simultaneous, the lightning moves with a greater velocity towards us and the thunder lags behind, exactly as when persons who are striking blows are observed from a distance.

[103] A thunderbolt is caused when winds are repeatedly collected, imprisoned, and violently ignited; or when a part is torn asunder and is more violently expelled downwards, the rending being due to the fact that the compression of the clouds has made the neighbouring parts more dense; or again it may be due like thunder merely to the expulsion of the imprisoned fire, when this has accumulated and been more violently inflated with wind and has torn the cloud, being unable to withdraw to the adjacent parts because it is continually more and more closely compressed – generally by some high mountain where thunderbolts mostly fall.

[104] And there are several other ways in which thunderbolts may possibly be produced. Exclusion of myth is the sole condition necessary; and it will be excluded, if one properly attends to the facts and hence draws inferences to interpret what is obscure.

Fiery whirlwinds are due to the descent of a cloud forced downwards like a pillar by the wind in full force and carried by a gale round and round, while at the same time the outside wind gives the cloud a lateral thrust; or it may be due to a change of the wind which veers to all points of the compass as a current of air from above helps to force it to move; or it may be that a strong eddy of winds has been started and is unable to burst through laterally because the air around is closely condensed. 10

[105] And when they descend upon land, they cause what are called tornadoes, in accordance with the various ways in which they are produced through the force of the wind; and when let down upon the sea, they cause waterspouts.

Yes it has always been something of a mystery to me too what the Cyreniacs really thought. I suspect the caricatures of them cannot really be true either, so as usual it will be "stepping in the dark" trying to sniff it out.

Quote from Nate

Aye, there's the rub

Yes indeed that is the rub of this whole discussion.

In the absence of clear authority from Epicurus as to how he was doing it, the whole endeavor is little more than speculation. Even attempting to use the examples that seem reliable (for example the reference to joy and delight as kinetic) can in my mind be equally something entirely volitional or "automatic" and without analysis.

But the approach you are taking in attempting to be specific is almost certainly the way forward as that will provide good examples of which we can debate the merits. From there we can work on more precision and the precision will (I am confident) point out the problems with the current mainstream analysis.

Nate:

Thanks for a very good list! By what criteria did you place each reference in each category? Someone reading your post casually might think that the cites themselves categorize the pleasure into the location you placed it, but I gather of course that that is not the case, and you are categorizing them yourself according to some criteria.

Can you spell out as best you can how you organized the two lists?