Posts by Cassius

Quote from Kalosyni

Just ideas and trying them out -- that is what is happening here on the forum -- testing out whether or not the Epicurean philosophy can be adequately elucidated -- and then seeing if they are of interest to anyone

Correct! Ambition and experimentation may sometime go further than our reach and have to be considered carefully when they approach that, but in general they are good and a large part of what life is about. The total absence of them means death, and it would not even be necessary to say that if we weren't all so familiar with religions and viewpoints that explicitly or implicitly advocate exactly the reduction of them to zero.

Episode 147 - The third of our Introductory series of podcasts on Epicurean Philosophy is now available. This week we focus on "True Opinions And False Opinions about Epicurus."

Quote from Kalosyni

Then the summer is open for "an Epicurean travel exchange" in which Epicureans invite other Epicureans to travel and spend a few days at their own house, and everyone takes turns hosting one or more visitors.

Such an ambitious goal indicates to me that either (1) Kalosyni has not absorbed the alleged doctrine that all ambition and desire is bad, and that we should focus on pursuing only on those pleasures that are necessary, or (2) no such doctrine was taught by Epicurus.

In my world of Epicurus, option (2) rules the day!

I have been encouraging Kalosyni because she is interested in working on a "set of guidelines" or an "agenda" or a "protocol" as to how a local live or local zoom (targeted towards allowing the formation of real-life Epicurean Friendship Groups) might function. Maybe :"Live Like An Epicurean For a Week" has an analogy to "Live Like an Epicurean For Weekend" or "Live Like and Epicurean for an Hour" (on a zoom)?

Quote from Don

Part of me

Just light a fire under that part and let us know! Now that you're taking a break from the podcast and have extra time on your hands we've just been waiting to support you on a new project!

Thank you too Nate! The entire subject of Pyrrrhonism (is Outlines of Pyrrhonism available today?) should be a topic of study for us. I feel confident that in that study we would learn a lot to the effect of why and how Epicurus rejected it, and that would really help give shape to what we do know from the remaining Epicurean texts.

Sort of like everyone today presumes Epicurus was the same as a modern atheist, most people seem to presume that he was a radical skeptic, and they kick back when confronted with the clear evidence to the contrary. It's the issue of whether anything is knowable, and where the line is in where we can have confidence in our knowledge.

Like Diogenes of Oinoanda said in Fragment 5:

Quote

[Others do not] explicitly [stigmatise] natural science as unnecessary, being ashamed to acknowledge [this], but use another means of discarding it. For, when they assert that things are inapprehensible, what else are they saying than that there is no need for us to pursue natural science? After all, who will choose to seek what he can never find?

Now Aristotle and those who hold the same Peripatetic views as Aristotle say that nothing is scientifically knowable, because things are continually in flux and, on account of the rapidity of the flux, evade our apprehension. We on the other hand acknowledge their flux, but not its being so rapid that the nature of each thing [is] at no time apprehensible by sense-perception. And indeed [in no way would the upholders of] the view under discussion have been able to say (and this is just what they do [maintain] that [at one time] this is [white] and this black, while [at another time] neither this is [white nor] that black, [if] they had not had [previous] knowledge of the nature of both white and black.

Digging all this out would be a lot of work but very rewarding. To many this can seem like a side issue, but it really informs the whole Epicurean attitude toward life, to not give in to nihilism and despair at finding anything to be knowable, but to dig in with confidence after getting an understanding of "knowability" in the first place.

Yes it's easy to go down a rabbit hole of alternative programs, but Dynalist is a good one for our uses, I think. For another example, here's a copy of the Thomas Jefferson outline in Dynalist, from which it is easy to cut and paste if someone were inclined to use it as a starting point for their own.

https://dynalist.io/d/SeMVaGIuaeoySjbrjNx96SRn

• Thomas Jefferson's Outline of Epicurean Philosophy:
  • Physical
    • The Universe eternal.
      • Its parts, great and small, interchangeable
    • Matter and Void alone.
      • Motion inherent in matter, which is weighty & declining
      • eternal circulation of the elements of bodies.
    • Gods, an order of beings next superior to man.
      • enjoying in their sphere their own felicities,
      • but not meddling with the concerns of the scale of beings below them
  • Moral
    • Happiness the aim of life
      • Virtue the foundation of happiness
      • Utility the test of virtue.
    • Pleasure active and in-dolent.
      • In-dolence is the absence of pain, the true felicity
      • Active, consists in agreeable motion
      • it is not happiness, but the means to produce it.
      • thus the absence of hunger is an article of felicity; eating the means to produce it.
    • The summum bonum is to be not pained in body, nor troubled in mind i.e. In-dolence of body, tranquility of mind.
      • to procure tranquility of mind we must avoid desire & fear, the two principal diseases of the mind.
    • Man is a free agent.
    • Virtue consists in: 1. Prudence 2. Temperance 3. Fortitude 4. Justice
      to which are opposed: 1. Folly 2. Desire 3. Fear 4. Deceit

(Source: https://www.loc.gov/resource/mtj1.051_0891_0894/?sp=4 )

Wow great find - thank you Kalosyni! I don't think I have ever seen that reference to Sextus Empiricus saying that before.

We've referred to that a lot on the forum in the past but I don't think linked it to Sextus Empiricus. It would be worth tracking down our prior discussions and adding this as a reference, and maybe even find a prior thread or starting a new one to highlight it.

This is worth exploring a lot further, post on facebook, etc.

I hope I am not forgetting but I do think this is the first time I have seen this.

Excellent and outstanding that you have checked in! The last thing we want to do is to remove accounts from real people inadvertently. Glad to have you!

For the sake of others, that kind of comment from Jim is all we really need to validate your account.

Again - welcome!

We've recently had a couple of posts about ways to organize outlines, and I think it's important to suggest to people that they not just attempt to come up with an ordered list of points from the Principal Doctrines or from any other pre-ordered list, but to use the pre-ordered list mainly as the way to organize your own thought processes.

So in that regard it seems to me one of the obvious ways to proceed is to start the "top level items" of the outline with some version of the ways that Epicurus organized his philosophy, but then to be sure to expand the list into specific decisions that we need to make ourselves in our own lives.

One of the best on-line tools I have found to make outlining easy is Dynalist.io where you can set up a free account. I just realized that you can also use it o share outlines (as you will see below) and that it also has a command ("Expand to Level" by right-clicking the first bullet) that lets you view the outline from whatever level you choose (down to four levels). Dynalist has a paid option but the great majority of its features are in the free tier and I doubt anyone would feel the need to upgrade unless they really get into the program and start using it in other areas of life. Once you sign up for a free account you can save your outlines and share them as I am doing below. Dynalist is also a great place to start a project because it's very easy to create an outline and then copy and paste it into word processors or other programs.

Here's an example of how you can create a live outline which shows how easy it is to view different levels and move items around. Probably best to view it by clicking the link, but I am also attaching a picture. I didn't have time to fill out more than two levels at the time I wrote this, but it seems to me that it makes senses to start with at least two or three high level statements and then fill out underneath each one a list of practical ways that you might apply each item. Then the beauty of outlining is that it's easy to move things around, change the order of their priority, and just generally extend out the high-level conclusions to particular applications in your own life.

Of course outlining doesn't make any decisions for you and doesn't "solve" anything, but I do think it's extremely helpful to visualize options so that you can keep them in mind constantly throughout the day as you do make decisions on what to choose and what to avoid. Here's the sample:

https://dynalist.io/d/TYtzBfFkol7Ut4QFriXEIrn9

Here is a copy-paste version which I did by right-clicking the first hamburger three bars to the left of the first item, selecting "Export" and then selecting the "formatted option. It copied over cleanly and produced a formatted outline here in the EpicureanFriends editor.

• Epicurean Outline From General To Particular
  1. I analyze my surroundings in confidence that the Universe is totally natural, that there is no life after death, and that nothing has eternal unchanging characteristics other than the elemental particles and the void.
     • I am going to write a will to take care of my friends and family and belongings after I am gone, but I am not going to belong to a church because I think supernatural religion is a fraud.
  2. I manage my thoughts in confidence that I am able to obtain the knowledge that is needed to navigate the world through the senses, anticipations, and feelings.
     • I am not going to look for guidance by visiting a palm-reader or reading a daily astrology column or asking a "seer" to predict my future for me.
  3. I have confidence that there is no better word to express the ultimate goal of all living beings than "pleasure," and that there are neither laws of supernatural gods nor absolute laws from any other source which must be obeyed by everyone at all times and all places.
     • I am going to organize my life to be as happy as possible, taking into account that choosing between long life and most pleasurable experiences is a tradeoff. I really want to fly to the moon so I am going to work to sign up for a trip as soon as it is available, even though I know I might not come back.

(Reminder note: I outline things differently every time I start a new one. The items above are just a rough example, not my view of mine or anyone's ultimate outline.)

Quote from Kalosyni

Now in our present time, is this helpful or needed? Will anyone find this useful? What parts of the philosophy are the most helpful or needed?

I think the model and purpose is that if YOU find it useful that's the main thing that matters. Yes it helps to see what other people are thinking as a way to check our own thoughts but in the end the whole issue is being able to summon up the key points immediately so as to be able to apply them in moment-by-moment thinking.

Quote from Letter to Herodotus

[36] Indeed it is necessary to go back on the main principles, and constantly to fix in one’s memory enough to give one the most essential comprehension of the truth. And in fact the accurate knowledge of details will be fully discovered, if the general principles in the various departments are thoroughly grasped and borne in mind; for even in the case of one fully initiated the most essential feature in all accurate knowledge is the capacity to make a rapid use of observation and mental apprehension, and this can be done if everything is summed up in elementary principles and formulae. For it is not possible for anyone to abbreviate the complete course through the whole system, if he cannot embrace in his own mind by means of short formulae all that might be set out with accuracy in detail.

The thing I really like about the idea of outlining is that it sort of forces you to confront the "how" of how you are organizing thoughts. You have to have a context and and theory in order to make it make sense.

For example I see the term "top-level item" used in outlining to discuss starting points,

In this version, I suppose the top level items would be:

1 - The Life of Epicurus

2 - The Philosophy

So the basic structure is that you're breaking things down into those two categories.

Then under philosophy you have:

A. Cosmology

B. Epistemology

C. Ethics

And then the great weight of the outline is under Ethics as:

1. Pleasure is the natural innate goal of human (and animal) life

2. The Tetrapharmakos

3. Correct Understanding of Justice

4. A Pleasurable and Content Life

With Item 4 being the great weight of that section.

I am just thinking out loud about the process. I wonder if an outline needs a sort of topic sentence foreward to describe how it is organized before the organization actually starts. Is the outline: (1) How I Think I Should Live? or (2) The Important Aspects of Epicurus, or (3) What I Would Say To A Friend About Epicurus If I Only Had Five Minutes .... or something like that.

So we've been talking about this section as "Personal Outlines of Epicurean Philosophy" but maybe that's too broad of a title? What makes sense as a way of putting the goal of the outline out there with clarity?

Welcome to Episode One Hundred Forty-Seven of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we'll walk you through the ancient Epicurean texts, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

We're now in the process of a series of podcasts intended to provide a general overview of Epicurean philosophy based on the organizational structure employed by Norman DeWitt in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy."

This week we discuss a series of Points and Counterpoints which Norman DeWitt describes as "True Opinions / False Opinions" about Epicurus:

• True Opinions - False Opinions
  • Epicurus’ Place In Greek Philosophy:
    • True: Epicurus came immediately after Plato (idealism; absolutism) and Pyrrho (the skeptic). Platonism and Skepticism were among Epicurus’ chief abominations.
    • False: Epicurus taught in response to Stoicism. (False because Epicurean philosophy was fully developed before Zeno began teaching Stoicism.)
  • Epicurus’ Attitude Toward Learning:
    • True: Epicurus was well educated and a trained thinker.
    • False: Epicurus was an ignoramus and an enemy of all culture.
  • Epicurus’ Goal For Himself And His Work:
    • True: Epicurus was not only a philosopher but a moral reformer rebelling against his teachers.
    • False: Epicurus was nothing more than a copycat who was ungrateful to his teachers.
  • Epicurus’ Place in Greek Scientific Thought:
    • True: Epicurus was returning to the Ionian tradition of thought which had been interrupted by Socrates and Plato. Epicurus was an Anti-Platonist and a penetrating critic of Platonism.
    • False: Epicurean scientific thought simply copied Democritus.
  • Epicurus’ Role As a Systematizer:
    • True: As with Herbert Spencer or Auguste Comte, Epicurus was attempting a synthesis and critique of all prior philosophical thought.
    • False: Epicurus was a sloppy and unorganized thinker whose system-building is not worth attention.
  • Epicurus’ Dogmatism:
    • True: Epicurus’ strength was that he promulgated a dogmatic philosophy, actuated by a passion for inquiry to find certainty, and a detestation of skepticism, which he imputed even to Plato.
    • False: Epicurus’ demerit was that he promulgated a dogmatic philosophy, because he renounced inquiry.
  • Epicurus’ View of Truth:
    • True: Epicurus exalted Nature as the norm of truth, revolting against Plato, who had preached “reason” as the norm and considered “Reason” to have a divine existence of its own. Epicurus studied and taught the nature and use of sensations, and the role in determining that which we consider to be true.
    • False: Epicurus was an empiricist in the modern sense, declaring sensation to be the only source of knowledge and all sensations to be “true.”
  • Epicurus’ Method For Determining Truth:
    • True: Epicurus taught reasoning chiefly by deduction. For example, atoms cannot be observed directly; their existence and properties must be determined by deduction, and the principles thereby deduced serve as standards for assessing truth. In this Epicurus was adopting the procedures of Euclid and partying company with both Plato and the Ionian scientists.
    • False: Epicurus was a strict empiricist and taught reasoning mainly by induction.

Wednesday Zoom Comments:

On the issue of what book to read first, Onenski comments that A Few Days In Athens has strengths as a first book to read because it is approachable. Given that the ethics is what interests lots of people, AFDIA sort of takes that approach.

Onenski also says that in his case he first read Hiram's book as a general introduction. He would still recommend it to some audiences; today he might also recommend.

Kochie says that he has seen some Catherine Wilson videos and that he books might be a good place to start. He himself however likes the Epicurus Reader, and he likes the introduction to that which is also on the Epicurism.info website.

This is an issue I haven't thought about in a while but it's an important question - What do we tell our friends is a good book to start with if they want to know more at a very general level?

I want to thank Pacatus and Charles for welcoming Jim. I am concerned, however, that this account is not "real," and needs to be deleted as spam. We seem to be seeing more spam accounts lately, and we're going to need to find a method of avoiding wasting our time with spam accounts.

So Jim, if you really exist, please post a note saying hello, or this account will be deleted.

Boy this quote attributed to Philodemus on page 28 is highly useful in many contexts to affirm the Epicurean rejection of the view that things can be considered absolutely to be praised or denounced:

Lots of interesting stuff in the Sedley article. Samples:

also

One thing I have always liked about David Sedley is that he is very free in his criticism of Cyril Bailey:

As to the first article there's lots of preliminary material not particularly on point with our current discussion, but good background. Looks to me like the article really gets going around page 12 and this statement:

what do you think about that Don? We could create the threads under the Aristotle scrion here:. Epicurean Philosophy vs. Aristotle

...and move this thread into that section too

Quote from Pacatus

Some of what I post here is just an attempt to put what others have said (that strikes me at the moment) into my own words, both so I can see if I understand them rightly and to personalize the stuff for myself and my own use ...

I think that is all any of us can do. That's not to minimize the usefulness of words and ideas but to mark their limitations. And to mark their limitations is not to undercut them so much as it is to prevent their being used as tools of oppression or manipulation of other people. Words and ideas are great! But their aren't to be used as voodoo. Many people are too nice and think "no one is trying to do that!". But tell that to Paul of Tarsus and his friends. I am with Nietsche and I think they destroyed Rome and the rest of the ancient world using just that methodology. In the beginning was the Word - and the Word was God!