Posts by Cassius

Welcome to Episode One Hundred Forty-Two of Lucretius Today.

This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

I am your host Cassius, and together with our panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the ancient Epicurean texts, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

Today we continue with our reading from the Inscription as translated by Martin Ferguson Smith, and this week we do us on issues regarding the nature of reality.

Fr. 5

[Others do not] explicitly [stigmatise] natural science as unnecessary, being ashamed to acknowledge [this], but use another means of discarding it. For, when they assert that things are inapprehensible, what else are they saying than that there is no need for us to pursue natural science? After all, who will choose to seek what he can never find?

Now Aristotle and those who hold the same Peripatetic views as Aristotle say that nothing is scientifically knowable, because things are continually in flux and, on account of the rapidity of the flux, evade our apprehension. We on the other hand acknowledge their flux, but not its being so rapid that the nature of each thing [is] at no time apprehensible by sense-perception. And indeed [in no way would the upholders of] the view under discussion have been able to say (and this is just what they do [maintain] that [at one time] this is [white] and this black, while [at another time] neither this is [white nor] that black, [if] they had not had [previous] knowledge of the nature of both white and black.

Fr. 6

[As for the first bodies, also] called elements, which on the one hand have subsisted from the beginning [and] are indestructible, and [on the other hand] generate things, we shall explain what [they are] after we have demolished the theories of others.

Well, Heraclitus of Ephesus identified fire as elemental, Thales of Miletus water, Diogenes of Apollonia and Anaximenes air, Empedocles of Acragas fire and air and water and earth, Anaxagoras of Clazomenae the homoeomeries of each thing, and the Stoics matter and God. As for Democritus of Abdera, he did well to identify atoms as elemental, but since his conception of them was in some respects mistaken, he will be considered in the exposition of our theories.

Now we shall bring charges against the said men, not out of contentiousness towards them, but because we wish the truth to be safeguarded; and we shall deal with Heraclitus first, since he has been placed first on our list.

You are mistaken, Heraclitus, in saying that fire is elemental, for neither is it indestructible, since we observe it being destroyed, nor can it generate things...

Fr. 7

Even Democritus erred in a manner unworthy of himself when he said that atoms alone among existing things have true reality, while everything else exists by convention. For, according to your account, Democritus, it will be impossible for us even to live, let alone discover the truth, since we shall be unable to protect ourselves from either fire or slaughter or [any other force].

Episode 142 - The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda (Part Two) "Reality" is now available!

Quote from waterholic

(or fatalism, to be honest I still don't follow the intricacy of the difference)

Yes that will be key in unwinding the question. I can imaging the possibility based on those words that "fatalism" embodies a supernatural force guiding things, while determinism simply means everything is mechanical, but I would not rush to embrace those terms without a standard point of reference identifying them as such.

Welcome @Vrasta !

Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself further and join one or more of our conversations.

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

•  Edit

Welcome Sid Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself further and join one or more of our conversations.

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

•  Edit

You're right Onenski that I don't think we have had too many discussions in the past on this topic. I personally have not made myself an expert on the different theories that get packaged under the name "determinism" so (since it is late when I write this) I will see if others answer first before I reply further myself.

I guess the key to unwinding this is going to be figuring out if this makes sense, which intuitively seems hard to follow:

Quote from Onenski

? A determinist thinks that every event, including our decisions, is determined by previous states of the universe (out of our control). Every thought, decision and action is determined by too many factors (a good example is in the book "Behave" by Robert Sapolsky), but we don't know all of them. However, determinists consider our agency as part of the causes in the world. Whatever we do has consequences in the world. So, there's room for personal decisions. The future is unknown for us, but we are part of the causes that determine it

Just a reminder and a request for this topic:

Over the years we have received a lot of benefit from participating on Facebook, and were it not for the Facebook Epicurean forum I doubt this EpicureanFriends forum would exist.

However for the last couple of months (and years) I have been reducing my activity on Facebook largely to just posting notices of new podcast episodes, and wishing people a happy Twentieth. Martin and I continue to monitor the page each week, but we are not posting much original content there. The problems with Facebook are well known, but if you discipline yourself to mainly read and write in the Epicurean group itself there's a lot less downside risk.

So the purpose of this post is this: if anyone here at EF is as active Facebooker (or would like to be) and is interested in helping us use the Facebook group to spread "the message" of Epicurus in that location, let us know and Martin and I can help give you access to help us coordinating the posting.

I am particularly be interested in the help of any of us who are regular readers here at EF, because we want to maintain the quality of posts over there so it does not devolve back into "Gee the Stoics and Epicureans were just like the Buddhists and can't we all just get along and assume our lotus positions and hum our mantras together!" That's largely a joke but I assure you that if we don't monitor the posting that's exactly what will happen, given the general level of discourse on Facebook.

But there is a lot of opportunity there, as the Facebook group has a worldwide outreach that's very difficult to duplicate. So if you're interested in "meeting" people worldwide and helping us get EF-quality posting over at Facebook, be sure to post here in this thread and let us know.

Same goes for Twitter, but that's a different thread: Social Media - Twitter

These last comments point up the issues of ataraxia and aponia. If all "disturbance" is "pain" then why were two words necessary?

The implication to me is that the issue of "disturbance " much involve some subtlety different than "pain" rather than mental vs bodily pain -- unless there is evidence that disturbance was always used only in a mental context.

Quote from Pacatus

This seems closer to Don’s mindfulness than some passive tranquility. I wonder if equanimity could be a better one-word translation? Or just calm mindfulness?

I agree with the substance of what I am reading in these posts but I am not sure that "mindfulness" is of much help given the noted looseness of that term. And of course I continue to think that using untranslated Greek words also is of little help. For the time being it seems to me to be most clear if we try to describe as precisely as we can what we are saying, even if it takes a number of words to do that. Words like attention and focus and clearheadness such as are being used in the descriptions are much more clear without implying something with a "woo" factor that is desirable to avoid.

Quote from Kalosyni

And also, this brings up the firm belief that an Epicurean would not choose to be employed in any kind of high-risk/high-adrenaline enterprises -- or anything which disturbs the physical body or threatens its continuance.

I thought I better comment on this sentence. I think it's consistent with the idea that "in general" an Epicurean would not choose a career in politics or something that depends on the whims of crowds.

But to say flatly that "an Epicurean would not choose to be employed in any kind of high-risk/high-adrenaline enterprises" would IMHO probably be going too far. I doubt that it is the risk or the adrenaline are determinative - those would be according to our judgment as to whether it is "worth it" or not. I realize that applies to politics and fame as well, but I think the closer reading of some of the fragments indicates that Epicurus said we need to be flexible on firm rules and allow for personal preference.

Not only would many of the Roman Epicureans (especially Cassius Longinus himself) be an example of that, but I personally respect the decisionmaking of Amrinder Singh (member here was killed in an ultralight accident) or Martin (who likes zip line rides - if I had a picture link i would link it )

Obviously it is prudent to be very careful about high-risk activities. But I thought I better mark the point that I would not suggest the strict avoidance of these activities just for the sake of a longer life - just prudence and a careful review of the risk-reward analysis before engaging in them.

Quote from Letter to Menoeceus

And just as with food he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant.

Please join us if you can on Wednesday night when we will discuss a very famous doctrine of Epicurus - PD27

Bailey: 27. Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.

**ΩΝ Η ΣΟΦΙA ΠAΡAΣΚEΥAΖETAΙ ****EΙΣ TΗΝ TΟΥ ΟΛΟΥ ΒΙΟΥ**

**ΜAΚAΡΙΟTΗTA ****ΠΟΛΥ ΜEΓΙΣTΟΝ ****EΣTΙΝ Η TΗΣ ΦΙΛΙAΣ**

**ΚTΗΣΙΣ. **

“Of all the things which wisdom provides for the happiness of the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friendship.” Yonge (1853)

“Of all the means which are procured by wisdom to insure happiness throughout the whole of life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.” Hicks (1910)

“Of all the means which are procured by wisdom to ensure happiness throughout the whole of life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.” Hicks (1925)

“Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.” Bailey (1926)

“Of all the preparations that wisdom makes for the blessedness of the perfect life by far the most precious is the acquisition of friendship.” DeWitt, Epicurus and His Philosophy 190 (1954)

“Of all the preparations which wisdom makes for the blessedness of the complete life by far the most important is the acquisition of friendship." DeWitt, Epicurus and His Philosophy 308 (1954)

“Of all the preparations that wisdom makes for the blessedness of the perfect life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friendship." DeWitt, St. Paul and Epicurus, 188 (1954)

“Of the things that wisdom prepares for insuring lifelong happiness, by far the greatest is the possession of friends.” Geer (1964)

“Of the things wisdom acquires for the blessedness of life as a whole, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.” Long, The Hellenistic Philosophers 126 (1987)

“Of all the things which wisdom provides for living one's entire life in happiness, the greatest by far is the possession of friendship.” O'Connor (1993)

“Of the things which wisdom provides for the blessedness of one's whole life, by far the greatest is the possession of friendship.” Inwood & Gerson (1994)

“Of all things that wisdom provides for living one's entire life in happiness, the greatest by far is the possession of friendship.” Anderson (2004)

“Of all those things by means of which wisdom can procure blessed bliss to last for an entire life, by far the greatest is the acquisition of friends.” Makridis (2005)

“Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship.” Saint-Andre (2008)

“Of all the things that wisdom provides for the happiness of the whole man, by far the most important is the acquisition of friendship.” Strodach (2012)

“Of the things wisdom contributes to happiness over the course of one's life, the greatest by far is friendship.” Mensch (2018)

“Of all that wisdom provides for a whole life of bliss, by far the greatest is the possession of friendship.” White (2021)

Discussion Forum for PD27

I. sorry if I missed it but Don did you agree with MFS' translation? I don't see any brackets there so preumably this part is not reconstructed (?)

Ha thank you but that is only my first thought. I am waiting on the Greek expert (Don) and the desire experts (Godfrey et al) before making a final call.

Quote from Don

Check this out, too:

L'inscription philosophique d'Oenoanda - Persée

It has drawings of the fragments of the inscription!

I definitely don't think I have seen that one before so thank you!!

Good question!

Quote from Don

For anyone who's interested, here is the Greek text for the inscription:

DCLP/Trismegistos 865216 = LDAB 865216

And that's exactly what we need to address Kalosyni's question! Thank you!

Quote from Cassius

These medicines we have put [fully] to the test; for we have dispelled the fears [that grip] us without justification, and, as for pains, those that are groundless we have completely excised, while those that are natural we have reduced to an absolute minimum, making their magnitude minute.

Kalosyin brought up in this episode that the phrasing apparently referring to "groundless pains" might not be consistent with our recent discussions of talking about "groundlessness" and "emptiness" in terms of "desires."

So one thing we will need to talk about will be how to incorporate this phrasing into the recent discussions we have had with Godfrey and Don and others on this topic.

FWIW I see the essay you are referring to is called "False Idles - The Politics of the Quiet Life" which looks to contain a lot of general background and isn't focused exclusively on Epicurus. Haven't had a chance to look at it but does look interesting.

Quote from waterholic

But with regards to free will, aside from the context of a deity (some external intelligence that "tests" us - an idea that has been an excuse to avoid any critical thought), what could materialism have against the concept of free will

If you reduce everything to atoms and motion in a straight line, people think that that would lead to a totally mechanistic result, and so a straight line materialist such as Democritus would conclude that everything is in the grip of an iron "fate" that allows no room for personal decisions whatsoever. Cicero made this argument against Epicurus in criticizing the swerve as a departure and regression from Democritus.

Your definition is thoroughly suitable to me, but I believe would have been totally unsuitable to Cicero, as it would have prevented him from ridiculing Epicureans as worthless in civil society.

As to whether your definition would be suitable to the professional academic class today, I very much doubt it, as it would prevent them from keeping Epicureanism in a medicine box for use mainly in nursing homes and anxiety clinics.

I would like to think that, over time and little by little, we can make a dent in public perception and widen the discussion toward your definition.

Ren's caveat is correct though, in that I don't think we can ever expect, nor should we try, to convince "everyone" of all dispositions that the Epicurean view is "best." But in the world at large I am convinced there are huge numbers that would profit if they understood how and why the modern academic interpretation is so off base.

So many of us here end up saying about Epicurus "that's the way I always thought before I heard of Epicurus." That number could really grow if we could leapfrog the Ciceronian / academic box.

Yes Nate I agree. There are multiple perspectives that have to be appreciated and understood and allowing one perspective to dominate the others ends up with a similar problem as when we mix up the ends with the means, as is the problem with "virtue."

And as Ren says it's never going to be the case that everyone is going to agree on a single perspective - nor should we expect them to.

The issue for those who consider themselves to be primarily Epicurean seems largely to be a matter of finding a way to work with these several perspectives without letting any of them crowd out the big picture of the full Epicurean worldview.