Posts by Cassius

PD16. In but few things chance hinders a wise man, but the greatest and most important matters, reason has ordained, and throughout the whole period of life does and will ordain.

PD22. We must consider both the real purpose, and all the evidence of direct perception, to which we always refer the conclusions of opinion; otherwise, all will be full of doubt and confusion.

PD23. If you fight against all sensations, you will have no standard by which to judge even those of them which you say are false.

PD24. If you reject any single sensation, and fail to distinguish between the conclusion of opinion, as to the appearance awaiting confirmation, and that which is actually given by the sensation or feeling, or each intuitive apprehension of the mind, you will confound all other sensations, as well, with the same groundless opinion, so that you will reject every standard of judgment. And if among the mental images created by your opinion you affirm both that which awaits confirmation, and that which does not, you will not escape error, since you will have preserved the whole cause of doubt in every judgment between what is right and what is wrong.

PD25. If on each occasion, instead of referring your actions to the end of nature, you turn to some other, nearer, standard, when you are making a choice or an avoidance, your actions will not be consistent with your principles.

Diogenes Laertius:

Logic they reject as misleading. For they say it is sufficient for physicists to be guided by what things say of themselves. Thus in The Canon Epicurus says that the tests of truth are the sensations and concepts [preconceptions / anticipations] and the feelings; the Epicureans add to these the intuitive apprehensions of the mind.

The Wise Man will found a school, but not in such a manner as to draw the crowd after him; and will give readings in public, but only by request. He will be a dogmatist but not a mere skeptic; and he will be like himself even when asleep.

Epicurean Canonics - Epicurus College Course Material

Quote from Todd

I think the idea of "the good" was probably a tool for manipulating people from the very beginning. Certainly it has been used that way in more recent history

I absolutely agree with that and I think it's very important. No doubt there is also a non manipulative reason to develop generic words for different uses, but we should not overlook this as a critical issue, and also see it as an explanation why the schools warred so vigorously in the ancient world. The willingness and even desire to blue these lines that many people have today strikes me as a major problem. Good God, people, no one expects you to be "right" all the time, but at least have the self respect to take the ideas seriously and see where the lead if you are not careful.

With Humphries in particular i gather it is always important to go back to the Latin, as he likes to wax poetic, but could be!

Started 12/24/22, on the eve of our beginning the discussion of the Canon in the Lucretius Today Podcast:

“We have our senses to tell us matter exists. Denying this, we cannot, searching after hidden things, find any base of reason whatsoever.” Lucretius, Book One (Humphries)

To be followed at some point by:

I could mention many things, Pile up a heap of argument-building proof, But why? You have some sense, and these few hints Ought to suffice. You can find out for yourself. As mountain-ranging hounds smell out a lair, And animals covert, hidden under brush, Once they are certain of its track, so you, All by yourself, in matters such as these, Can see one thing from another, find your way To the dark burrows and bring truth to light. Lucretius Book One Humphries

Quote from Don

Which may be why some later Epicureans felt it necessary to demonstrate why those replacements were corruptions using formal arguments.

Yes, but not because Epicurus was wrong to the extent he did not spend all his time working on formal arguments, but because different people in different schools and societies have been indoctrinated in different perspectives, and those who have been convinced to think that abstract logical proofs are the ultimate standard are helped by placing things in logical terms. The Stoics and their allies had been blabbering for 200 more years by the time of Cicero, and ow they have had an additional 2000 years to continue on the same path, especially after they merged with Judeo-Christianity.

I think Epicurus would say that you can draw those tickmarks on the yardstick using whatever language or number system or scheme of categorization you care to use, but in the end you call a spade a spade and this is the main thing people need to know: the yardstick handed to us by nature for how to live is understandable by everyone and known to them as feeling/pleasure/pain.

Quote from Todd

But is it The Yardstick? Or only a yardstick?

I think Epicurus would say it (the feelings, pleasure and pain) is the only yardstick given us by nature for what to choose and what to avoid, which would take us back to those earlier issues as to whether human mental attempts to replace them and formulate other yardsticks are corruptions.

And of course my interpretation of Epicurus, and my personal answer to that is "Yes, the suggested replacements are corruptions."

PD03. The limit of quantity in pleasures is the removal of all that is painful.

An analogy would be that this folding yardstick pictured below is the feeling of "pleasure," a tool by which we measure how long , or how desirable, something is. The "limit of pleasure" would be a reference to this tool, straightened out to its maximum extent, at which it measures the largest quantity of pleasure that is possible to measure. At that point, there is no more crookedness ("pain") left in the tool, the pain is totally gone.

This analogy helps us draw many important conclusions in intellectual debates, but tells us exactly nothing about what we are using the yardstick to measure. The tools of precision tell us nothing about the type or purpose of the wall we are building. What we are measuring is the way we spend our time while we are alive, and that is going to vary for each of us according to our individual circumstances.

We don't obsess over yardsticks, and we should not obsess over the "limits" of pleasure as a measurement. We simply use the yardstick of pleasure to construct the most pleasant life that is possible to us given our individual circumstances.

Extending further on Don's sentence and adopting some Dewitticisms wording:

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Pleasure is then the criteria (the yardstick, the canon) by which we determine if something is to be considered a good thing or a bad thing from a human perspective.

More broadly, the yardstick of desirability is feeling, of which there are two (pleasure and pain) so just as "pleasure" is one way to look at the yardstick, so is "pain."

The point we are making is that it is important to realize that the yardstick is not the same as the thing being measured. The tool of precision is not the same as the stone of the wall.

When viewed as a tool of precision, it is shockingly insufficient, and in fact naive, to consider "absence of pain" to be a full description of the best way of life or an ultimate experience in life.

And that would explain why PD3 refers to absence of pain as "the limit of quantity of pleasure" rather than the ultimate good or anything suggesting a particular experience.

PD3, and that whole "absence of pain" discussion, is geared toward the type of discussion we are having now, it's not a suggestion to perfect new methods of anesthesia.

Quote from Todd

But then IMO, it follows from there that you can't claim that the yardstick is also one of the things being measured (goods). Maybe that is just me being pedantic.

A close parallel with this, and I don't think this is a pedantic point :

Quote from Don

There are a limited number of candidates in answer to "What is The Good?" Other philosophies have different choices, but, to Epicureans, all other candidates are means to the end of pleasure.

I would probably say ".....but, to Epicureans, all other candidates are means to the end of pleasure mistaken, to say the least!

Quote

XIII. Those who place the Chief Good in virtue alone are beguiled by the glamour of a name, and do not understand the true demands of nature. If they will consent to listen to Epicurus, they will be delivered from the grossest error.

Quote from Don

So, candidates for the telos/Chief Good were things like virtue, pleasure, wisdom. This is a select subset of traits or phenomena that could serve as the prime foundation for all choices and rejections. For a Stoic, virtue should be the foundation of this.

1 - And another candidate then and now would be "religion" or law of god.

2 - This is the point I come back to a lot when people express disappointment that there is not more "technique" or "therapy" preserved in Epicurean writing. It appears to me that the major concern of Epicurus and the key philosophical battle is not over "how to have a good time" but instead first establishing the foundation for all choice and avoidance in the first place. Both are important, but you never get to questions of how to pursue pleasure of you don't establish pleasure to be the goal in the first place. And that question was and still is the most controversial of them all.

The modern stoics want to totally gloss over and fudge that question, and we should make sure never to fall for the trap of sympathizing with them, because this is the key issue. Do you live for a "true world" beyond the senses, or for this one?

Quote from Godfrey

And there's a context in which it's important to parse good/a good/the good, but that's peripheral to a functional understanding of Epicurean philosophy. Is this the conclusion we're reaching?

I would agree with that, and would say it would be a good idea to state the context where it's appropriate: something like - "when we find ourselves in the company of ivory-tower intellectuals, or in those whom the ivory-tower intellectuals have corrupted into thinking that such debates are critical to happy living."

Unfortunately, given the world we live in and our educational and religious background, that happens a lot, so it's a necessary skill set for many of us.

Quote from Don

It always warms my heart when I read things like this. Makes me feel better for thinking Socrates was an annoying jerk. Not sure I would have voted to convict and condemn him, but his disregard for his wife and children are at the top of my list for holding the opinion that he was a jerk.

And thus we have an excellent example of how a person can be a prince of a guy and still say some very "sharp"
things about philosophical opponents!

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Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

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Welcome to Episode One Hundred Fifty-Four of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we'll walk you through the ancient Epicurean texts, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

We're now in the process of a series of podcasts intended to provide a general overview of Epicurean philosophy based on the organizational structure employed by Norman DeWitt in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy."

This week we are going to begin Chapter Seven - The Canon, Reason, and Nature

• The Dethronement of Reason
• Ridicule
• Nature as the Norm
• Priority of Nature over Reason

Quote from Godfrey

How would this apply to good/a good/the good? I'm not enough of a linguist to answer that, so I'll ask the question because I think this needs to be dealt with.

As i see it that is the problem we are going to keep coming back to because "good" has multiple meanings. And that leads to "the highest good" having multiple meanings as well, and there's simply no way to untangle this without qualifiers attached to the word "good" to define which meaning we are referring to. This is very similar to what DeWitt points out in regard to "true" in "all sensations are true," and it can also be used to justify the conclusion that life is the greatest good (at least in terms of "good" thought of as an 'asset').

Good as a noun, good as an adjective. etc etc etc.

I don't have a lot of additional comment at the moment but I want to register that I largely agree with the direction that Todd is going. Loose talk about "the good" is a huge problem. People talk about "good" as if everyone knows and agrees with what they mean when clearly they do not. I recall a sentence in Frances Wright to the effect of Epicurus saying that there is no good but pleasure, no evil but pain, and although that forumulation might violate the construction that Todd is looking for (and i might remember the wording wrong), the thrust is probably the same point.

Episode 153 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week we complete Chapter 6 and discussion of "The New Education." One thing I would like to point out about this episode is that we spent a significant amount of time near the end discussing the issue of "certainty" and "confidence." That's a perfect setup for next week's episode, where we will begin discussion on Chapter 7 on the Epicurean canon of truth.

Quote from Todd

After reading Torquatus (I will admit that I didn't get all the way through), I didn't get the impression that Cicero was cleverly misleading his readers. OTOH, maybe he was just very good at it!

You may not have seen this quote from a review written by Norman Dewitt:

Cicero's Presentation of Epicurean Ethics. New York, The Columbia University Press, 1938. Pp. 127. Columbia Diss.

This study is most commendable. It is clearly written and well printed, acutely reasoned and amply documented. The treatment confines itself to De Finibus I-II and is divided into two chapters: 1. Cicero's Presentation of Epicurean Philosophy in De Finibus I. 2. Cicero's Critique of Epicurean Philosophy, Presented in De Finibus I and II. Each chapter concludes with a summary, and the text of Epicurus himself is abundantly cited. The conclusion is that Cicero failed "to understand Epicureanism as a consistently unified philosophy (p. 81)," but is acquitted of having been "deliberately and intentionally unfair (p. 119)." It is only to this acquittal that I take exception. Every debater has the choice of arguing to reveal the truth in its entirety or of arguing to make points. The former method is adapted to the Supreme Court, the latter to a trial by jury. Cicero was a crafty old trial lawyer and he deliberately argued to make points, because he was pleading before a reading audience, which functions like a jury, and his shrewd legal mind had long discerned the vulnerability of Epicureanism before this style of attack. His attitude was that of William J. Bryan toward biological evolution, and his pleadings are comparable to a Scopes trial, but I do not believe he could have misrepresented the truth so successfully had he not understood it completely. In the Scopes trial, the crafty old lawyer was on the opposite side-Clarence Darrow.

NORMAN W. DEWITT. VICTORIA COLLEGE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO

Quote from Todd

But this strikes me as a rather bland, (somewhat) non-controversial flavor of Epicureanism. I would like to be able to make stronger claims, and to do that, you have to be very clear on what words actually mean and how concepts relate. Again, this is possibly a personal failing of mine.

Certainly you're not the only one. And at least to some point, it surely isn't a failing. I do think there is a question however whether at some point the quest becomes counterproductive, and that's what Epicurus seems to have been warning against. I doubt that we've reached that point in this discussion, but it's good to keep in mind that at some point we might.

I only have time to start this topic, but this morning while driving I heard it asserted in a podcast that in Book One of Plato's Republic, Socrates had attacked the traditional Greek view (which was asserted to be doing good to your friends and doing harm to your enemies). Supposedly Socrates said that rather than doing harm to one's enemies one should try to "improve" them.

If true, I can easily imagine such a doctrine being considered to be a component of virtue, with a universalized conclusion that doing harm to ones enemies is always bad.

It seems to me that Epicurus' views on justice are much more realistic -- to neither do harm *nor be harmed* with the implication that there is no universal rule of benevolence to "improve" one's enemies. One should make friends of them if possible, not treat them as enemies if friendship is not possible, or when necessary have nothing to do with them.

PD39. The man who has best ordered the element of disquiet arising from external circumstances has made those things that he could akin to himself, and the rest at least not alien; but with all to which he could not do even this, he has refrained from mixing, and has expelled from his life all which it was of advantage to treat thus.

I would expect that there are probably articles out there which discuss this in detail which would be worth looking into. We regularly discuss the Justice doctrines without making a lot of progress, and if we could link Epicurus' views to specific Platonic or Aristotelian ideas to which they are responses, things would probably be much more clear.