Posts by Cassius

Lots of interesting stuff in the Sedley article. Samples:

also

One thing I have always liked about David Sedley is that he is very free in his criticism of Cyril Bailey:

As to the first article there's lots of preliminary material not particularly on point with our current discussion, but good background. Looks to me like the article really gets going around page 12 and this statement:

what do you think about that Don? We could create the threads under the Aristotle scrion here:. Epicurean Philosophy vs. Aristotle

...and move this thread into that section too

Quote from Pacatus

Some of what I post here is just an attempt to put what others have said (that strikes me at the moment) into my own words, both so I can see if I understand them rightly and to personalize the stuff for myself and my own use ...

I think that is all any of us can do. That's not to minimize the usefulness of words and ideas but to mark their limitations. And to mark their limitations is not to undercut them so much as it is to prevent their being used as tools of oppression or manipulation of other people. Words and ideas are great! But their aren't to be used as voodoo. Many people are too nice and think "no one is trying to do that!". But tell that to Paul of Tarsus and his friends. I am with Nietsche and I think they destroyed Rome and the rest of the ancient world using just that methodology. In the beginning was the Word - and the Word was God!

Quote from Don

The Google Sites don't allow for comments. As I mentioned previously, I'm just fitting this into my day as I can/want/am able, so I'm not sure how long it'll take to complete all 10 books. But I'm encouraged by your interest and am open to your ideas on how to point to it or allow people to comment on it on this forum.

Oh yes Nichomachean Ethics surely must be one of the key books that needs to be reviewed over and over. The same would go with several other works which would no doubt include Plato's Philebus as well.

I'm not sure how it can be set up and it might not be possible to do much more than we are doing now, but hopefully we can eventually come up with some ideas. a Wiki format might work but lots of effort involved in anything like that so we probably just ought to plow through the material as best we can and then work on organization a little later.

Quote from Don

I don't think Epicurus was doing that at all. I think Epicurus *was* in fact saying there is a "single" good - "the good" ταγαθον - and that good is pleasure.

Yes I think that we'll want to continue to discuss this point and discuss multiple layers of meaning, such as DeWitt does with "all sensations are true." I think that is a very clear example that words have to be defined in context. All sensations are reported honestly, for example, but all sensations do not reveal the full "truth" of the full context.

So I would say the same with "pleasure." Pleasure is considered as a feeling is absolutely the only positive guide given by nature to point to things to choose. But the word "Pleasure" can also be considered as a general concept (same with "happiness") and from that perspective the word is like a map that can be very useful but is not at all the same as the real world that it seeks to describe.

If someone wants a "map" and wants to drill down to a single word that is usable to describe all feelings of pleasure, then "Pleasure" fills the bill and within that philosophical framework is very useful. But the word "Pleasure" does not and cannot contain within it the full feeling of every experience of pleasure, and so people chafe under the idea that the single term embraces all instances of enjoyment.

So while I can agree with you that "there is a 'single' good ... and that good is pleasure" I think the problem that Epicurus is pointing to is that this statement has to be viewed in full context and not considered to be anything but a formulation of words. Words have meaning, but they only have the limited meaning that we give to them by definitions.

As I see it that's your whole problem (and I agree with you) about Aristotle: he's chopping words into definitions that suit his preferences. The problem is not that his preferences are "wrong," the problem is that there is in fact no absolute standard of right and wrong as to how to define words. Choice of language is only one of the first and most obvious problems - shades of meaning aren't defined by God or by ideal forms, so the definitions we choose to give to words are entirely up to us. And if we don't always keep that in mind, we start thinking that Aristotle is some brilliant genius of the ages who somehow figured out things that weren't there to be observed by anyone else who cares to take the time to pay attention.

That's what I think is being indicated by this sentence in the letter to Herodotus: "First of all, Herodotus, we must grasp the ideas attached to words, in order that we may be able to refer to them and so to judge the inferences of opinion or problems of investigation or reflection, so that we may not either leave everything uncertain and go on explaining to infinity or use words devoid of meaning." I think we all agree that Epicurus rejected Plato's version of "ideas" - the ideal forms - as being divine or absolute. If they aren't divine or absolute, then the logical conclusion is we assign them meaning according to our choice to describe what we observe through the senses.

I think we have previously had different opinions on this next statement, but this is what I think is also indicated by Diognes Laertius when he recorded:

"The internal sensations they say are two, pleasure and pain, which occur to every living creature, and the one is akin to nature and the other alien: by means of these two choice and avoidance are determined. Of investigations some concern actual things, others mere words. This is a brief summary of the division of their philosophy and their views on the criterion of truth."

So this is indeed a big issue and I think that you are rightly rejecting Aristotle's arbitrary categorization, but the next step - which I think that Epicurus was making clear - is that ALL categorization (all maps) are "artificial." I think Epicurus was that that in the end all we can do is assign words to what we observe. We always need to be clear that those assignments are our own choices. We work hard to make sure that the assignments are consistent across words and across sensory observations, but we always have to be clear that the assignments aren't universal or established by gods or even by Nature.

All leading back to when we decide to talk about a "single good" we're talking about a concept that we as humans have invented. We've hopefully defined it honestly based on our observations of the way nature works, but in deciding to use a single word to describe the way nature works we are making that formulation / drawing that map ourselves.

I would expect we'll see example after example of that as you go forward through the rest of N.E..

OK as to this:

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Metrodorus asserts in his Reply to the Sophists: ‘Hence this very thing is the Good (τὸ ἀγαθόν > τἀγαθοῦ), escape from the evil; for there is nowhere for the Good (τἀγαθὸν) to be put when nothing painful to the body or distressing to the mind is any longer making way for it.’ Epicurus too makes a similar statement to the effect that the Good is a thing that arises out of your very escape from evil and from your memory and reflexion and gratitude that this has happened to you. His words are these: ‘For what produces a jubilation unsurpassed is the contrast of the great evil escaped; and this is the nature of good, (τὴν τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ φύσιν) if you apply your mind rightly and then stand firm and do not stroll about (περιπατῇ) prating meaninglessly about good (περὶ ἀγαθοῦ).’ Oh, the great pleasure and blessed state this company enjoy, as they revel in suffering no hardship or anxiety or pain! (Usener Fragment 423 (Plutarch, That Epicurus Actually Makes a Pleasant Life Impossible, Section 7, Greek text. See also here for Loeb.)

So, the Epicureans had a very clear definition of what The Good was. It was simple and direct, and they didn't see any need to "stroll about prating meaninglessly about good." And remember, especially in the context of the above Plutarch excerpt, that Epicurus said, "I do not think I could conceive of the good without the joys of taste, of sex, of hearing, and without the pleasing motions caused by the sight of bodies and forms." (Usener 67) If we are filled to the top with pleasure (The Good), "there is nowhere for the Good (τἀγαθὸν) to be put when nothing painful to the body or distressing to the mind is any longer making way for it." Aristotle's slicing, dicing, hair-splitting, micro-analysis becomes superfluous and "meaningless," literally κενῶς kenos "meaninglessly, emptily, vainly" (the same word Epicurus uses for "the void").

"So, the Epicureans had a very clear definition of what The Good was. It was simple and direct, " <<<<

I agree with that and I think maybe it is important to discuss how it is clear and simple and direct.

Isn't the reason it is clear and simple and direct something close to this:

Since there is not in reality some single good that everything is aiming toward, any any single definition of words, we can only define "the good" in hypothetical terms. Since we have to use words to communicate, we define "pleasure" as that which we feel to be pleasurable, and 'pain' as that which we feel to be painful. Thus there is no more accurate way to define 'the good' and 'the bad' in words other than as the opposite of one another. Since we are forcing ourselves to discuss what to choose and what to avoid, we can define "Pleasure" in words no more specifically than the absence of its opposite (pain). Likewise we can define 'pain' in words no more specifically than the absence of its opposite - pleasure. We can list examples of pleasures and pains til the cows come home but those examples always remain examples. We can never reduce pleasure and pain or good and bad to real experiences other than to point to individual instances, because rightly understood pleasure and pain are feelings, and our words aren't feelings - discussion of feelings as words or concepts is nothing more than artificial 'categorizing' or word-play. And wordplay is mapmaking -- fun and useful but not to be viewed as creating a kind of supernatural reality which we should defer to and worship.

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I think I have now caught up in my reading of Don's series so I look forward to more!

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Book 3 begins with more categorizing by Aristotle.

That "categorizing" is kind of a summary of the whole project isn't it?

Aristotle is at best a kind of mapmaker, which is all well and good if you remember the limitations of maps, but a fatal error if you start to worship maps and think that they were produced by someone drawing with god-like authority.

Reading through this after being aware of Epicurus' fundamental viewpoints is, as Don says, not really a very intimidating experience at all, because the limitations jump out at you. But I shudder to think at the negative impact to the world brought about by holding Aristotle up as some kind of paragon of god-like wisdom. And that's exactly what the "Objectivists" (and no doubt others) still do today.

So maybe one huge topic is the question of what 'good' even means? For example:

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In 1094b15-20, Aristotle writes something that I think Epicurus would actually agree with:

“In many cases good things bring harmful results. There are instances of men ruined by wealth, and others by courage.”

Carrying on my last comment about challenging whether there is a single good, I think Epicurus might object that if you're being rigorous about the meaning of 'good' then wealth and courage (in that example) are in fact not good in themselves at all - that they are only contextually good - and that thus Aristotle was wrong in even talking about them as 'good' if he is going to be true to a single definition.

And is this not why we end up with the formulation that there is in fact nothing good but Pleasure, nothing bad but Pain? (Do we have that in Epicurus himself or is that Frances Wright's summary of his point?)

I think this points in the same direction:

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However, his next statement struck me and I’m going to quote Rackham’s translation at length:

“And further, the life of active virtue is essentially pleasant. For the feeling of pleasure is an experience of the soul, and a thing gives a man pleasure in regard to which he is described as ‘fond of’ so-and-so: for instance a horse gives pleasure to one fond of horses, a play to one fond of the theater, and similarly just actions are pleasant to the lover of justice (δίκαια dikaia “just”), and acts conforming with virtue generally to the lover of virtue. [11] But whereas the mass of mankind take pleasure in things that conflict with one another,2 because they are not pleasant of their own nature, things pleasant by nature are pleasant to lovers of what is noble, and so always are actions in conformity with virtue, so that they are pleasant essentially as well as pleasant to lovers of the noble. [12] Therefore their life has no need of pleasure as a sort of ornamental appendage,3 but contains its pleasure in itself. For there is the further consideration that the man who does not enjoy doing noble actions is not a good man at all: no one would call a man just if he did not like acting justly, nor liberal if he did not like doing liberal things, and similarly with the other virtues. [13] But if so, actions in conformity with virtue must be essentially pleasant.”

To me Aristotle seems to be setting up an abstraction of the pleasures of "virtue" or "what is noble" as being somehow absolutely good in themselves all the time and for everyone.

OK maybe so if you want to talk in map-like terms, but again that's a map and doesn't really exist except in our minds as a construct that is useful when understood to be limited, deadly when imagined to be reality itself.

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And again the same thing here: This also sets up another stark distinction between Aristotle and Epicurus in that that latter insisted that no one was ever to young or too old to practice philosophy and let it benefit you! Aristotle seems to say, “Are you happy? Can you be happy? Well, certainly not until you’re dead I can’t say one way or the other.”

Aristotle is trying to set up the cold hard piece of paper as the standard by which we judge life itself, rather than recognizing it as a map that is useful for communication but a trap if considered to be handed down from a divine creator of the universe!

I am kind of late to the party in saying this but i wonder if it might not be desirable to have some way to categorize these comments other than chronologically in this thread. Does your website allow for discussion comments by page? Or should we try to somehow find a way here to be able to reference, and make new comments, by section of the book?

I ask that because in going back and picking up i am about to make a very out-of-sequence comment to the very opening of book one:

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Nicomachean Ethics starts out with:

“Every art and every investigation, and likewise every practical pursuit or undertaking, seems to aim at some good: hence it has been well said that the Good is That at which all things aim.”

This sets up the difference between “some good” ἀγαθοῦ and The Good τἀγαθόν. The latter is the exact word Epicurus uses in:

"I know not how to conceive the good, apart from the pleasures of taste, sexual pleasures, the pleasures of sound and the pleasures of beautiful form." (On the Ethical End)

Using Aristotle’s definition (and this appears to possibly trace back as far as Eudoxus of Cnidus (c. 400-350 BCE; Aristotle was 384-322 BCE) we could get:

"I know not how to conceive That at Which All Things Aim, apart from the pleasures of taste, sexual pleasures, the pleasures of sound and the pleasures of beautiful form."

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Why is it not objectionable to seem to presume, without proof, that such a thing as "THE good" ("it has been well said that the Good is That at which all things aim.") is not only NOT well said, but stupidly said? And why is not Epicurus' response ("I know not how to conceive....") best understood as a statement that such a thing as a single good does not really even exist at all except as a construct of the mind useful for debate but not as something which truly has an independent existence?

Combining that with the Plutarch comment it begins to seem to me like it is very important from the beginning to establish that Epicurus was drawing a bright line of warning against the entire endeavor of obsessing over the discussion that such a thing as a single good applicable to everyone even exists at all.

Within the confines of philosophical debate it may make sense to talk about a single concept ("Pleasure") but seen from this perspective the entire project of setting up a single word (even "pleasure") as some kind of semi-mystical conceptual goal has to be viewed with suspicion and limitation.

In saying this, to be clear, I am not criticizing Epicurus, but suggesting that what Epicurus was saying in large part is that in the initial discussion of setting up any words - pleasure or happiness or joy or tranquility or anything else - as goals, we need to first establish that the entire discussion must be kept in check lest we think that our words are in themselves capable of creating something from nothing.

It looks like a lot of Epicurus' point was to warn again, in the phrase we've been using, that while the map can be very useful the map is not the territory and we don't live in a map.

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So if I now or new people in the future come across Don's series of articles, should we just post comments here in thread order, or subdivide the thread somehow, or what would make sense? Because reviewing N.E. is something that lots of people are going to want to do in their study of Epicurus.

Welcome Jim ! Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself further and join one or more of our conversations.

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you!

That means that there is a version at the link you cited, plus:

Epicurism.info http://epicurism.info/etexts/epicurea.html

Attalas.org http://www.attalus.org/translate/epicurus.html

Here (just a backup copy of the older version from Epicurus.info) https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/useners-fr…-erik-anderson/

Episode 146 - The Second of our Introductory series of podcasts on Epicurean Philosophy is now available. This week we focus on "The Three Divisions of Epicurean Philosophy" (Physics, Canonics, and Ethics).

That would be great - I think areas we've not hid hard enough so far include Plutarch, Sextus Empiricus, and the sections of Cicero on Epicurus outside of Book 1 of On Ends (where we've focused our attention on the Torquatus presentation).

And of course that doesn't even mention the works of Philodemus of which there are many we've barely touched.

There's certainly no lack of things to do!

For example U417:

U417

Plutarch, That Epicurus actually makes a pleasant life impossible, 3, p. 1088C: Epicurus has imposed a limit on pleasures that applies to all of them alike: the removal of all pain. For he believes that our nature adds to pleasure only up to the point where pain is abolished and does not allow it any further increase in magnitude (although the pleasure, when the state of painlessness is reached, admits of certain unessential variations). But to proceed to this point, accompanied by desire, is our stint of pleasure, and the journey is indeed short and quick. Hence it is that becoming aware of the poverty here they transfer their final good from the body, as from an unproductive piece of land, to the soul, persuaded that there they will find pastures and meadows lush with pleasures.

To me that variation makes clear in saying "adds to pleasure only up to the point where pain is abolished" that there's nothing different in kind when all pain is absent. The step from 99% pleasures 1% pains is simply the addition of 1% more pleasure -- the 100% level is not something different in and of itself.

Yep it's on this page here too:

Usener's Fragments Edited By Erik Anderson - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

As I was looking for that I am reminded that there is a lot of interesting material in that collection which we rarely if ever talk about but which is very worthwhile. Hard to assess the accuracy of some of it but still can be very helpful.

I always find that in the Usener collections ... Let me look

Quick comment on desirable ways to manipulate an outline:

Oh that last comment reminds me of one of my favorite subjects - outlining software. There is even a website dedicated to the topic: http://www.outlinersoftware.com

Those two outlines above were produced with the software that I have sworn by for 20+ years:. Ecco Pro. If I make it to 90 years old and die at my computer I will probably be typing into my Ecco outlines at the moment I kick off. Unfortunately development of Ecco stopped long ago, and today probably the premier interactive outliners that feature easy expanding and collapsing include Logseq and Dynalist.

Of course the forum here itself has an outlining function, but no ability to expand and collapse ("fold"). Another example is the current outline for the LucretiusToday podcast we are using at the wiki page https://epicuruscollege.com/wiki/lucretius…l_series_-_eahp That outline is generated by Dokuwiki and it works ok for "folding," but it doesn't have the ability to zoom to different levels (for example, to show only all first and second level headings) like full featured outlining software can do.

Repeating Kalosyni's original comment I think it would be a great project for anyone (and many people) to organize their Epicurean research and produce public "live" outlines that can be viewed at varying levels.

If I were to attack such a project at the moment I would probably use Dynalist, but if anyone has better suggestions please post in the thread. I know a lot of us are familiar with WordPress - maybe WordPress has an outliner plugin? Numbers of us have done blogs in the past but if we could figure out a way to publish live outlines that can be interactively zoomed at varying levels, that format would probably be at least as useful as the standard blog format organized by date.

If anyone is interested in working on such a project they should of course feel free to copy and paste the text of my existing outlines above into their own new formats for further development and revision.

In fact, the existing two outlines above are simple HTML, and anyone who is proficient in HTML can simply download the existing page (it's all a single HTML page) and modify it to make it much more attractive. I never learned real CSS skills so I was only able to make minimal changes to the format generated by EccoPro. Should be easy for someone with HTML/CSS skills to modify it. For example I see that as you drill down through the bullets the font sizes don't seem to match. If anyone wants to spend time cleaning up the HTML in these versions I would gladly update the existing versions on this and the NewEpicurean websites. But I suspect it makes the most sense to take the text and rework it using an up-to-date static site generator.

I am told that not everyone can click on the pointer icons and expand/collapse the outlines in the "clickable versions" of the above two posts. If you're unable to do that please post here as I would like to investigate the cause. It works for me on both android and desktop.

(Note that the pictures in the post aren't clickable. I just posted those so you would see what you're going to get when you follow the link. Also note that you must click directly on the pointer icon and not the full text of each line. That's an example of why the content needs to be reworked using different technology.)