Posts by Cassius

I will defer further praise for that last point only because now that I am convinced that she is right, the inquiry does not stop but only gets going. As she hints this is not in print in English anywhere (that I too have seen), but in two thousand years it cannot fail to have been previously noticed. No doubt others have indeed noticed it and probably commented - in German or Latin or French. We very likely to find out that this point - which really puts an exclamation point on the argument of the poem - has been withheld from us, and not just (if at all) by Cicero, but in the form of later writers who have seen it but whose work has not come down to us. Detective work is needed!

I don't recall this even in Dewitt, which is saying something, given his classical background and otherwise creativity in interpreting Epicurean texts. I don't recall his direct comment on the issue of the end of the pem so it's possible that he hinted at it in an article somewhere, but surely Emily Austin deserves credit for bringing it front and center.

OMG wait til you get to chapter 22 and see what she suggests Lucretius might have intended to do to close the poem! She states that she doesn't claim the point is original to her but I agree I have not read it either and it is ingenious!!!

If she is correct then it is indeed easy to imagine that Cicero (or someone else) might indeed have "emended" the text to delete it!!!

This section is worth the price of the book and may be near genius (at least in my initial enthusiasm for it)!

For what it is worth I am now on chapter 12. I continue to be impressed that this is a very useful book. The one germinating idea that I am maybe carrying over from Catherine Wilson is that I personally think that it is a bad idea to tie ones own credibility for the philosophic system to high-profile contemporary examples. I strongly agree with many and maybe most of her formulations, but I wince at the implication that one's assessment of John Kennedy or John McCain is a good way to make a point. I see the merit of talking to people at their own level, but just to muse on the subject I doubt that it's the best general way to proceed. A central part of the philosophy is the absence of a universally correct viewpoint, so assuming that we share specific viewpoints about specific people is fraught with danger. Even the references to Cicero are sometimes hard to evaluate - even though I strongly dislike his distaste for Epicurus he was still a complex character.

But in sum after 11 chapters it's still by far the best introductory book I have read in a while.

I have been meaning to make sure that this video was referenced somewhere in the forum. It's been years since I watched it but I recall it being very good on getting to the heart of the "something from nothing question" - with Richard Dawkins defending the traditional point of view identified with Epicurus:

I don't want any hint of negativity to come out at least at this point. I keep coming across passages like this which make me incline to think this is the best book I've read in a long time - she goes right to the heart of many issues:

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Epicurus thinks the key to unlocking our tranquility is a sober evaluation of our desires. Now, you might be thinking that a tidy solution to anxiety would be to adopt a scorched earth approach to desire. If desires produce anxiety, then just stop all that anxiety in its tracks by wanting as little as possible! Some philosophers encourage that kind of austerity, but Epicurus does not. He thinks extreme parsimony is as worrisome as excessive indulgence.¹

Quote from Pacatus

I already like her style,

Yes she does write very well!

Quote from Charles

t's pretty good so far, very simple and glossing over some finer points, such as putting far too much trust in the Vatican Sayings. Though that is to be expected for a casual introductory book. My biggest issue though, is her chapters concerning politics.

Charles it sounds like you have read further than I have, but I picking up hints of a similar vibe. It doesn't strike me as pronounced an issue as with Catherine Wilson, but if I had one wish I would recommend to everyone that they stay as far away from modern political allusions as they possibly can. It works great to cite examples that are rooted deeply in human psychology, as in referring to children, but taking sides on contemporary hot-button political issues probably scores very few points, and at the cost of rubbing some people the wrong way for reasons that have nothing to do with the philosophical reason for her writing the book in the first place. That being said I haven't gotten to "chapters concerning politics" so I will weigh in on that later.

I spent the morning looking for and skimming the book without finishing the article that prompted this thread. I have now finished the article. It's outstanding! She drives right to the heart of the difference between Stoicism and Epicureanism (the theism embedded in Stoicism) and she embraces the Epicurean side!

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I have good friends, students, and close relatives who fall on opposing sides of the providential creation divide, and I understand that people have their own reasons for choosing one commitment over the other. Modern Stoics, though, cannot simply set aside the fact that the Stoics fell squarely on the side of providence without risk of undermining some of Stoicism’s core tenets. Stoicism’s emblematic acceptance of suffering follows from their ability to reconceive it as divine providence, as God working in “mysterious ways.” Marcus writes that someone who suffers something “unpalatable” should “nevertheless always receive it gladly” because Zeus designed individual suffering “for the benefit of the whole.” Even Stoicism’s deep, admirable commitment to caring for all humankind, the notion that we are all “citizens of the cosmos,” is fundamentally grounded in the view that all human beings are manifestations of God.

Epicureans, by contrast, build their practical philosophy on a natural science that denies a cosmic significance to suffering, and they see their endorsement of hedonism as an outgrowth of treating humans as sophisticated animals rather than as expressions of a divine rational nature. Epicurus was not an atheist, but he denied a providential God who created the universe or intervenes in its events. Perhaps, then, many Modern Stoics should consider reading more about Epicureanism, since Marcus admired Epicurus’ resilience, temperance, and approach to death, which all grew out of a science many Modern Stoics already accept (and that the Stoics vehemently opposed).

I think I want to memorialize this exchange over at facebook that occurred when I posted a link to the Austin article, to which Holly and then Elli replied, and to which I commented:

Cassius Amicus

Ha - look at the comments so far. The article / book author is Emily, the first comment by Holly, the next by Elli. I think also of Catherine Wilson, and it seems to me that in recent years female writers are putting the male proponents of Epicurus to shame. Leontium and Plotina have their modern counterparts it seems and we need to find the modern Lucretians and Diogenes of Oinonandeans to keep the score balanced! 😉

Elli Pensa

Admin

Cassius Amicus Women will change this world and the future that comes will be more pleasant. That's for sure. It is not by chance that there are many countries in theocracy that men are keeping women subordinated and in silence.

Women have to be the great rebels. And their rebellion has to be like the sea water that hits slowly on the rock. Women must born and nurture the new little epicureans. If this will not happen there is no future for mankind.

Cassius Amicus

I know Edward Gibbon blames the spread of Christianity in the Roman world to a significant extent on women, and there may or may not be some justification in observing that. But it's at least as fair to say that when women finally wake up from being manipulated by religion there will be Hell to pay! 😉

Elli Pensa

Cassius Amicus Please tell to mr. Gibbon that it's another thing to spread ideas with passion and specifically that passion that brings pleasure to you and the next people to you, and another thing is to spread ideas under the fear to NOT have kicks and punches from your master that was that partriarch figure of father, brother and husband inside your home. Those figures that were following the instructions by the greatest double spy of all the spies with the name Apostle Saul-Paul. For this reason, I said to my comment for a rebellion that comes by women. Yes, women have to prepare their Hell to pay all the lies and so much PAIN which they have spread around for many centuries! And of course, to not forget that the material that they found was inside Plato. Plato is the father of illusions, myths, allegories, imagination and the fog that is eaten by the spiritually hungry. Plato still borns theocracy, authοrities and tyrants everywhere... and the stoics that were following Plato, and still are following him in our days, are the slaves that support Plato and all the tyrants around. 😛

I am not going to trivialize this thread so rather than include this comment here, I will post it elsewhere so anyone so inclined can pursue the thought somewhere else ---- but the title of the book does remind me of a song..... RE: Epicurean substitute for prayer

I suppose I am the only one for whom the tune in the video below came to mind when I saw the title of the new Emily Austin book "Living For Pleasure." (maybe not the best example of the song but it has the words)

If we could convince Nate or someone else musically talented (Kalosyni? Others?) to come up with some better words then we might have something to accompany the thoughts in this thread about a "prayer"

I am very pleased to see that she cautions against superficial use of the Tetrapharmakon and explains the need to get behind it to its root! I can't imagine that this book isn't going to zoom toward the top ranks of my "recommended for new readers" list. (My underline below)

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Epicurus himself did not condense his practical philosophy into something so brief and chantable as “despair is a vice,” but his followers wished he had, so they did it for him. Drawing upon, among other things, a passage from the Letter to Menoeceus and a smattering of Principal Doctrines, they produced “The Fourfold Remedy” (the “tetraphamakos”).¹ From Philodemus:

God presents no fears, death no worries; the good is easy to get, the bad easy to endure.

Imagine that I had opened the book by telling you that Epicurus espoused these four claims, rather than putting them here, at the end. I assume that every reasonable person would likely dismiss one or more claim out of hand. The Classicist Fiona Hill, for example, writes that “the third remedy may provoke a cynical snort in any reader struggling to make ends meet, unless they have no dependents and are temperamentally ascetic.”² And in some sense she’s clearly right. Taken in isolation, the Fourfold Remedy serves at best as a promissory note for difficult arguments, an IOU for a hefty sum unlikely to be met.

By this point, though, I hope you feel like you have the tools to piece together Epicurus’ reasons for supporting all four claims. Not that Epicurus thinks you need such arguments ready at hand as you traverse the rocky path of daily living or that you must feel prepared to triumph in an argumentative battle of skill, but it helps to have confidence that such arguments exist. Let’s briefly recap, then, the general outlines of the Epicurean commitments that undergird the Fourfold Remedy, somewhat like the greater part of the iceberg that lies below the surface of the water.

Absolutely phenomenal:

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The Fourfold Remedy is the core of a much larger nexus of Epicureanism’s philosophical commitments, the kind of complex nexus that undergirds any philosophy worth considering. We should never let anyone convince us of an overnight magic elixir, that a coin in our pocket with a catchphrase will make life manageable, that a quick fix will engender a fundamental life reorganization. Something like the Fourfold Remedy can only serve as a handy reminder of a deeper system of value and way of living that we fully inhabit and express.

True, you can remember distillations like the Fourfold Remedy in a way that you could never remember this chapter. It would prove fruitless, though, to chant it over and over in isolation of its argumentative context, and perhaps that is why the distillation does not come from Epicurus himself. Distillations are for people who already know the “why,” and Epicurus was in the business of providing the “why.” At this point, you know the “why,” at least in broad outline and within the context of modern life. You have the tools to evaluate the project writ large as a system of value and decide for yourself.

Yet a philosophy is to be lived, not simply evaluated in the cold light of reason, or squabbled over among scholars in a stuffy hotel conference room. Epicurus does not think it is enough to merely chant the words, nor even to understand the arguments he uses to support his claims. We must also internalize and act on them.

I will move this thread into the "recent books" section and re-title it with the Book title. I now have a copy and while I am just skipping around I can already say that I think this is by far the best recent book I have seen on Epicurus.

I don't know how quickly I can read and absorb the full book but hopping around I am *very* encouraged with what I see:

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As for living like an Epicurean, I have a few suggestions, some drawn directly from Epicurean texts, others extrapolated from ancient texts for modern purposes.

This one might sound a bit obvious, of course, but the first thing to do is to read Epicurus. Though his writing is terse, what remains of his work is not voluminous. Trying to read Epicurus, at least most Epicurus, is not like trying to read Kant or Hegel. The Hellenistic Philosophers, especially the Roman ones, wrote to be read. Epicurus intended the Letter to Menoeceus, Principal Doctrines, and Vatican Sayings to be clear and easy to consult. If Epicurus’ prose disappoints, then choose Lucretius, who tries as best he can to faithfully reflect Epicurus’ views, but with charm, meter, and a wit finely attuned to human foibles. Lucretius claimed that his poetry was like putting honey on the cup of a glass of medicinal wormwood to make swallowing it easier. Think of Epicurus as a whiskey neat, and Lucretius as a tasty cocktail. People tend to prefer one over the other, but they both serve their purpose.

Some critics of Epicurus thought he encouraged Epicureans to unreflectively memorize and recite his writings without concern for comprehension. Among the many uncharitable objections to Epicureanism, I consider that accusation the most unfair. Reading, even memorizing, Epicurus is insufficient. You need to take the philosophy apart and see how it works, develop a fuller understanding, reflect on how it applies to living, especially in the context of your own life. Thankfully, you can plow through Epicurus multiple times without losing a single month of your life—try that with Kant!

Less obvious is the Epicurean advice to write some Epicurus of your own. In his On Gratitude, Philodemus recommends that we write our own texts.²

Remember that Epicureans think we all have individual natural dispositions and that our life histories and circumstances make us who we are. Some of us struggle more with pride, others with self-effacement. Some with greed, some with parsimonious asceticism. Some with a desire for honor, some with a disdainful indifference to the approval of good people. Some of us express gratitude for people who harm us, while others of us are prone to ingratitude for those who help.

Nate have you checked out the book?

Looks like there is a preview sample available here: https://nook.barnesandnoble.com/products/97801…n=9780197558348

And the listing at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Living-Pleasur…uct_top?ie=UTF8

Here's the page for her book at Oxford University Press: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/living-for-pleasure-9780197558324?cc=us&lang=en&#

EDIT: The following article popped up in a google search for me, and so I initially posted this thread about "Are the Modern Stoics Really Epicurean?" However that article quickly led to the new book "Living for Pleasure" by the same author (Emily Austin) so this thread is now covering both the article and the book.

Great Article! http://hnn.us/article/184389

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Modern Stoicism has saturated the philosophical market—seminars, apps, podcasts, retreats, bestseller lists, psychotherapy. As a specialist in ancient Greek philosophy, I admit that I’m pleased to see so many people take an interest in what I study for a living. Stoicism has a lot going for it, and many of my students are powerfully drawn to its core commitments. All that is to say, I can see the allure.

My aim here, though, is to convince readers, especially those committed to evolutionary science and modern physics, to learn more about Epicureanism, Stoicism’s oldest and greatest rival. Cards on the table—I prefer Epicureanism, and I have recently published a book on Epicureanism as a way of life. That said, I think even devoted, forever members of the Stoic caucus have good reason to study Epicureanism, if only because taking your rivals seriously is a sign of intellectual virtue, an indication that you have not grown complacent. As a more controversial point, I suspect that many Modern Stoics are already Epicureans, at least by the standards of the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius. Let me explain.

Let's work to give this one some exposure!

Welcome ram !

Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself further and join one or more of our conversations.

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Welcome ccarruth42

Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself further and join one or more of our conversations.

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Episode 148 - The fourth of our Introductory series of podcasts on Epicurean Philosophy, is now available. This week we complete our discussion of "True Opinions And False Opinions about Epicurus."