Welcome to episode 157, part two of a special two part Episode of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you too find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.
In the first episode of this series we introduced you to Dr Emily Austin, professor of philosophy at Wake Forest University, and author of the book "Living for Pleasure: an Epicurean Guide to Life."
In part one Dr. Austin told us about how she became interested in Epicurus and decided to write her book. We began our discussion of the basic fundamentals of Epicurean philosophy, how Epicurus differs from the Stoics, and several questions that are frequently asked about how to pursue the desire for pleasure. In this part two we will continue that discussion, and dive further into how to apply Epicurean philosophy to modern life. Now lets return to the discussion.
Time Stamps:
1:36 - The difference in the Epicurean vs Stoic perspective on virtue.
5:30 - The Epicurean world view derives from the Epicurean physics, and further distinguishing Epicurus from other schools.
28:00 - How important is an interest in Epicruean science to appreciation of Epicurean philosophy?
38:50 - A theory as to how Lucretius may have intended to end his poem.
Welcome jdarraugh !
Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.
In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
- "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
- The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
- "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
- "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
- The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
- Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
- Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
- The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
- A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
- Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
- Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
- "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
Welcome to the forum!
Two Facebook comments to the podcast:
I don't know about the "surprisingly," but given that the second commenter is a philosophy professor himself, that's high praise! 
Episode 156 - part one of our very special interview with Dr. Emily Austin, is now available. Part two will be posted within the next week, but in the meantime this first episode contains a lot to talk about. Thanks to Dr. Austin for allowing us to interview her, and we look forward to much more in the future!
We have number of posts on weight loss, most recently the one posted by Kalosyni. I am wondering if people here have had particular success with any of the methods that have been mentioned, so I am listing them here:
For some reason I came back to this thread and realize that it went entirely off topic. How are you doing on quitting smoking?
I think for purposes of keyword searches that we probably need the word "lifestyle" somewhere, so I've renamed the forum to "Epicurean Lifestyle and Self-Improvement."
And don't forget this:
Over time as we think about if anyone wants to volunteer to spearhead this let us know. We need almost a "talk-show" like personality to help us showcase this area.
In the future i think we need to devote at least a regular Zoom program, preferably something we could record and distribute, that would focus on exploring normal everyday lifestyle issues. That would allow us to highlight the Epicurean twist on things without blurring into aspects that would be (for our purposes here at the forum) distracting or divisive.
Kalosyni's "Weight Loss" post has led me to reorganize the forums slightly and move her post and a number of other related topics into a "Self-Improvement" category. We eventually need to emphasize this topic more so we can have more discussion of "daily life" issues. It would eventually be good to organize this topic into a major project and eventually do a separate podcast or even video channel with someone hosting discussions on this global topic. This will move us more into "daily life" discussions and can cover almost anything with the notable exception of the single topic of contemporary politics which is too divisive for our purposes. Over time as we think about if anyone wants to volunteer to spearhead this let us know. We need almost a "talk-show" like personality to help us showcase this area. In the meantime here is the reorganized forum:
You know that line from Virgil really does kind of sum up the whole poem, doesn't it? But it would still need the kind of transition from Thucydides that Emily Austin suggests to get from what is now actually the last line to Virgil's kind of finale / flourish of a statement.
Also:
Probably interesting to not also that the sentiments of VS47 could also fit for what a person of Epicurean attitude among those people would have been thinking as well. Some type of connection might also explain the otherwise weird phrasing, and I don't gather we know the date when the Vatican sayings were compiled or their source:
VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and I have closed off every one of your devious entrances. And we will not give ourselves up as captives, to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for us to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who cling to it maundering, we will leave from life singing aloud a glorious triumph-song on how nicely we lived.
Correct me if I'm misremembering, but Lucretius's poem was considered unfinished even in the ancient world, right?
Very good question but if so I am not aware of anything to establish that. Isn't one of the only ancient comments someone (a church father?) making the comment about Cicero "emending" it?
Joshua has me thinking about this subject again due to his post about the plague. Rather than put this note in that thread and disrupt the chain of thought, I will add this here:
If in fact the point of the ending is related to the point that the citizens of Athens who lived through the Plague were thereby freed from their religious superstitions (as Emily Austin suggests), it strikes me that the famous lines from Virgil might actually fit at the very end of the poem too.
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
Atque metus omnes, et inexorabile fatum
Subjecit pedibus, strepitumque Acherontis avari
Which translates to something like:
Happy was he who was able to learn the causes of things,
and who set under his feet all fear of unrelenting fate,
and the noise of greedy Acheron.
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas - Wikipedia
Wouldn't it be interesting if Virgil was thinking of the end of Lucretius' poem when he inserted that line into verse 490 of Book 2 of the "Georgics" (29 BC)?
Joshua I should look up what Santayana said before writing this, but as usual I will blunder forward without doing my research:
Is Santayana looking for Mars just to balance Venus in the opening because he thinks there should be another reference to the role of gods?
Maybe Lucretius had no desire to balance gods but to leave them behind, and the full reason for ending on the death and destruction note is that he intended to state or at least evoke the true ending of the Plague story, which is that the people of Athens gave up on worrying about the gods at all, and tried to enjoy life as best the could?
I gather that is what Emily Austin's book is suggesting?
And if so Santayana would be wrong in looking for an allusion about gods except as to a dismissal of them? (Meaning that part of Lucretius' point was that Mars on the warpath is exactly what did NOT happen to cause the plague?)
Welcome @musbarton !
Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.
In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
- "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
- The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
- "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
- "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
- The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
- Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
- Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
- The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
- A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
- Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
- Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
- "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
Welcome to the forum!
Yes Happy Birthday Onenski. We really appreciate your participation in the forum and our Zoom events!
Happy Birthday to Onenski! Learn more about Onenski and say happy birthday on Onenski's timeline: Onenski
Absolutely in my case probably head and shoulders THE most important book in turning my thinking was Thomas Paine's Age of Reason. For me it was important in opening my mind to see that someone with a pretty sterling "Founding Father" reputation thought the way he did. Starting with that I went on a binge reading campaign of other deist writers, and of course including Jefferson's material as well. But Age of Reason stands out as so clearly written as to be in a class by itself. So many writings of that period seem dated when you read them today, but Paine's writing style seemed to me (at least at the time) to be like it was written yesterday.
Yes you're right of course that Paine and most of the others in that period were into Deism, so that's a major limitation. Figuring out why they considered themselves to be materialists but refused to go full Epicurean would be an interesting study in itself.
Eventually the deism reading led me to Thomas Cooper who produced some good material too, which I have found useful at times with religious people:
Especially his Jeffferson-endorsed: Scripture Doctrine of Materialism
I didn't realize that the PDF supporting the article is behind a paywall. A search of cellular memory indicates some people think it is quackery, but other articles seem to take it seriously. Might be worth splitting this off into a separate topic if anyone is interested or has access to the full ScienceDirect article to see how serious it is.
Also, probably more closely related to particle flows affecting the brain directly:
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