Posts by Cassius

Quote from Charles

I think she left out an important aspect, namely justice and moral relativity and how specific Epicurus' advice can be applied to his own time period versus their application to today's world.

Yes I agree that she is definitely light on that aspect, and that probably also explains her willingness to be very free with her commentary on contemporary issues that are at least partly or even wholly political (as I have mentioned in regard to the John F. Kennedy and John McCain issues). I am reading into this that because she didn't highlight and bring out the "moral relativity" (or maybe calling it context-dependency would be accurate too) she is too free in implying that her own view of such issues is necessarily what every Epicurean would conclude. So yes I think that you're commenting on something I agree with.

Personally I have a pretty low expectation for this kind of thing, since I see it done so frequently. Seems like half the articles that get written about Epicurus are more psychology or political opinion that just brings in Epicurus as a justification for decisions the writer has already reached. That's the way I see the modern Stoics - they are really just CBT/pyschotherapists but they want to wrap their conclusions around some ancient writers for prestige purposes.

But I think in this case we're mostly coming up here with observations that might help serve as a preliminary comment to someone setting out to read it. Once you understand the point it's pretty easy to dismiss personal judgments as personal without undermining the credibility of the rest.

At this point in my thinking my attitude is still that we're going to come up with some preliminary comments that would be good for new readers to bear in mind as they read the book, but that the issue is not as serious as it often occurs, and its something that makes for a good discussion while reading the book.

Charles I agree with the points you are making but - maybe I am distracted as I read this - do you think Austin disagrees with you?

Maybe you are saying that she should have talked further about these issues and you're not so much saying you disagree with what she wrote as that you think she did not deal with this aspect?

I am gathering that is your point but I am not sure whether you are saying that she gives the wrong impression on what she does say, or just that she left out an important aspect?

"As to Joshua's Hitchens video, that reminds me that there is also a George Carlin video that takes on a similar project that despite its much spicier language is probably significantly more consistent even than Hitchens' video with a mature Epicurean approach."

This comment reminds me that I wanted to say that some of us have observed some concern at a mention of Epicurus likened to a "court jester" of the ancient world. Those words convey implications that I don't think are accurate or flattering.

But as for George Carlin --- I would not be quite so concerned if someone decided to smile and draw some comparisons between Epicurus and George Carlin. I am no expert on Carlin but he's always struck me as someone who is an expert at using humor in a deadly serious way.

Does this seem like a ping pong game? It's a terrible idea to try to "translate" the ten commandments but at the same time it's a great exercise!

I do think both perspectives are true and this highlights how central "context" is to the Epicurean worldview. You've picked a particular context and within that context we can work toward something that's helpful, but at the same time we have to realize that out of its context it could actually be harmful.

I really do think this is why the PDs read as they do. They are sort of "principles" that don't necessarily lead TO a particular direction for a particular life, but they lead AWAY from major pitfalls that are pitfalls for everyone.

I didn't finish listening to the Hitchens talk but I think from past observation that he is subject to a major danger that people have to take an approach that is something like "I too believe that there are absolute rules for being a good person - but those guys got the rules wrong and I can give you the correct list."

The Epicurus approach is more like "You've got to understand that there is NO single list of rules that apply to everyone at all times and all places to tell them affirmatively what to do in every circumstance. But I can tell you how the universe works (the physics) and how to use your head (the canonics) and then I can also tell you the major pitfalls that everyone confronts and how to avoid them. Then after that you're as equipped as anyone can be to use your life in your context to pursue the general goal that everything else points to."

(1) As to Joshua's Hitchens video, that reminds me that there is also a George Carlin video that takes on a similar project that despite its much spicier language is probably significantly more consistent even than Hitchens' video with a mature Epicurean approach

(2) Don's post and several of the other comments (and listening to Hitchens in the background) reminds me as I wake up today too reminds me that I definitely don't think that Epicurus would accept the ten commandments as a positive or even a neutral social construct. The entire thing is built on accepting a supernatural order of things (and all sorts of other negative presumptions) is which probably the number one source of evil in the world. So in discussing them with even a child I would think it would be very basic to plant the Epicurean seeds that would eventually show how damaging this construct has been in history. Of course what you've suggested in the beginning is a replacement set, so obviously you're looking for something positive as a replacement for a negative thing, but I would think that one of the most basic aspects of any childhood education approach would be not only to set them on the right path but warn them about the hazards they will encounter, so that plays into the project as well.

If we were looking for ten "good ideas" then it would be pretty easy to go through the PDs and generalize them into 10 sections. And certainly there are at least ten ways to generalize many of the comments Epicurus made on aspects of life.

But it looks like you are going through the biblical list and looking for rough equivalents and that raises the conceptual issues of the major differences of approach to life.

I suppose one issue to cross is whether it makes sense to talk about "commandments" vs "advice" or "good ideas."

I could see someone arguing that ultimately there is only the natural test of pleasure and pain, but even then we do are not always to follow the one or the other without reference to ultimate results. So it's hard to translate many of the doctrines into specific dos and donts without always hedging that context is in the end going to control at least in most cases.

So perhaps there is a framing issue that requires preliminary explanation.

Again at this point just thinking out loud.

Hey that is very creative! I have only just begun to think about further comments but i do think this is very creative and even if it proves impossible to find a set that pleases everyone the exercise should be very worthwhile!

Quote from Martin

We need olive trees!

and FIG trees!

Welcome to Episode One Hundred Forty-Nine of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we'll walk you through the ancient Epicurean texts, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

We're now in the process of a series of podcasts intended to provide a general overview of Epicurean philosophy based on the organizational structure employed by Norman DeWitt in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy."

This week we discuss a number of fundamental points about the cultural and academic context in which the philosophy of Epicurus arose:

• The Cultural Content
  • Born in 341 BC, seven years after death of Plato and seven years before Alexander crossed Hellespont to conquer Persia.
  • Platonism was dominant in higher education.
  • When Epicurus arrived in Athens the Cynics were in revolt against conventional philosophy.
  • Epicurus owes debt to the later Aristotle in that Epicurus focused on organic life instead of inorganic, leading to setting Nature as furnishing the norm rather than hypostatized Reason as taught by Plato.
  • Chief negative influences of the time were Platonism and oratory, both of which were focused on the political.
  • Epicurus declared war on the whole system of Platonic education. More than half of Principle Doctrines are direct contradictions of Platonism.
  • It is a major mistake to consider Stoicism to be the primary antagonist of Epicureans - this ignores that Stoicism was developed after Epicurean philosophy: the main enemy of Epicurus was Platonism.
    
• Epicurus A Man of Erudition
  • Some detractors of Epicurus claim he was an ignoramus and enemy of all culture. This is absurd.
  • Epicurus was precocious as a child and challenged his teachers on the origin of the universe.
  • Epicurus no doubt received Platonic schooling in geometry, dialectic, and rhetoric.
  • Epicurus shows great familiarity with Platonic texts and more than half of his doctrines are rejections of Platonic positions.
  • Epicurus declared dialectic a superfluity but criticized Plato with acumen and wrote against the Megarians, the contemporary experts in logic.
  • Epicurus rejected geometry as relevant to ethics but adopted the procedures of Euclid in his own textbooks. Epicurus refuted mathematicians’ claims that matter is infinitely divisible.
  • Epicurus was clearly familiar with Aristotle and adopted many of his findings.

will substitute Don's Link - thanks!

Thanks that link will be removed!

Hmm I wonder if we won't eventually find a better translation than this one. And "not" just as they pleased, or "did just as they pleased...." And given the tone and circumstances I wonder if "lawless extravagance" captures the meaning...

⁵³Nor was this the only form of lawless extravagance which owed its origin to the plague. Men now coolly ventured on what they had formerly done in a corner, and not just as they pleased, seeing the rapid transitions produced by persons in prosperity suddenly dying and those who before had nothing succeeding to their property. So they resolved to spend quickly and enjoy themselves, regarding their lives and riches as alike things of a day. Perseverance in what men called honour was popular with none, it was so uncertain whether they would be spared to attain the object; but it was settled that present enjoyment, and all that contributed to it, was both honourable and useful. Fear of gods or law of man there was none to restrain them. As for the first, they judged it to be just the same whether they worshipped them or not, as they saw all alike perishing; and for the last, no one expected to live to be brought to trial for his offences, but each felt that a far severer sentence had been already passed upon them all and hung ever over their heads, and before this fell it was only reasonable to enjoy life a little.

I was about to make another slam at Cicero to accuse him of "emending" it out, but there's no reason not to think that a conclusion based on this was in the version that Cicero had available to him, and that it wasn't cut out by some "helpful" church fathers long after Cicero's death.

In fact that's probably more likely, because Cicero likely couldn't trust that he had the only copy of the poem and that his version would become the official one.

So it's entirely possible that something like this was there and just added to Cicero's frustration.

And if so then that would leave the book, if not the whole poem, ending on much the same note that Frances Wright chose for "A Few Days In Athens"

Thanks Don so there we can see exactly what she is referring to in context. It's not as extensive as I had hoped to form a basis for reconstruction, but it surely does, as she indicates, form a basis from which a rousing conclusion to the chapter could have been constructed. No way he's going to follow the preceding sections so closely and leave THIS out!

Quote

⁵³Nor was this the only form of lawless extravagance which owed its origin to the plague. Men now coolly ventured on what they had formerly done in a corner, and not just as they pleased, seeing the rapid transitions produced by persons in prosperity suddenly dying and those who before had nothing succeeding to their property. So they resolved to spend quickly and enjoy themselves, regarding their lives and riches as alike things of a day. Perseverance in what men called honour was popular with none, it was so uncertain whether they would be spared to attain the object; but it was settled that present enjoyment, and all that contributed to it, was both honourable and useful. Fear of gods or law of man there was none to restrain them. As for the first, they judged it to be just the same whether they worshipped them or not, as they saw all alike perishing; and for the last, no one expected to live to be brought to trial for his offences, but each felt that a far severer sentence had been already passed upon them all and hung ever over their heads, and before this fell it was only reasonable to enjoy life a little.

Quote from Charles

Finally, someone said it.

And refreshingly, in this case, someone with very good scholarly credentials and the ability to marshal for mainstream use many references and cites to support her position.

Hello and welcome!

This is the "review" I posted to the Epicurean Philosophy Facebook page:

Yesterday I came across Emily Austin's book "Living for Pleasure" for the first time, and I mentioned I would check it out. Today I want to report back that I have now finished reading it, and that I can strongly recommend it as a "popular" introduction to the philosophy of Epicurus. Ms. Austin is both an engaging writer and an experienced teacher-scholar, and she combines many great references with what I believe to be an excellent eye for interpreting Epicurus in almost every major area of controversy you might wish to examine.

The book is aimed at intelligent but non-specialist readers, and so it's suitable for almost everyone. It is one of the most thorough and well documented current popular books on Epicurus that you will find anywhere, but it is so good it left me wishing it were even longer. I would like to have seen it spend more time on subjects such as Epicurus' canonics / epistemology, but what we might wish for as perfect is not the enemy of the good, and this book is very very good. It includes insights that I have not seen anywhere else, such as her suggestion for how Lucretius might really have intended to close his poem, all very well documented with cites to the ancient texts.

I do want to include a caution that the book (like Catherine Wilson's work) contains a number of opinions on current political issues with which not everyone will agree. Those might not eventually prove to be as "evergreen" as the great majority of the rest of the book, and I personally would have been happier if the book had contained more on canonics / epistemology and less on difficult topical issues in which it might be better to "wait" or consider Epicurus' view of multiple possibilities. Readers should not think that they should measure their personal fidelity to Epicurus based on their current evaluations of John McCain or John F. Kennedy, or on where they stand on the many similar "cultural" issues that she mentions as her own application of Epicurean views.

But I am sure that Ms. Austin would say that her book was intended to be just a starting point for someone interested in Epicurus, and from that perspective it's easy to see why a writer would want to supply personal potential applications. She is surely right that Epicurus did not shy away from political engagement when warranted, and it's up to us to evaluate the facts and take the positions that suit our own circumstances, just as Epicurus did on issues such as the size of the sun and various other difficult questions where evidence is limited. Epicurean philosophy doesn't guarantee that we will be "right" in every decision we make in life, but it does give us the best path toward the best quality decisions we can make with the evidence available to us.

This book is a great addition to the arsenal of books for those who want to "strike a blow for Epicurus," and I highly recommend it to all readers of the Epicurean Philosophy Group.

Good to have you! If you tell us more about your background and interests maybe we can fine-tune recommendations. You will also see we are discussing the new book by Emily Austin and either that Or the Dewitt book would be good places to start depending on your interests

OK I have now finished reading the book. My basic opinion is unchanged: it is excellent. It's now probably first on my list of recommendations for a newer / younger reader who isn't really into philosophy at all and who might have an open mind about Epicurus. It's really targeted at a different audience than DeWitt's book, so I really don't see them in competition with each other. After you read "Living for Pleasure" you'll know the type person who will do best to start with one book versus the other. The type person who I might normally have suggested read one of Catherine Wilson's books I would definitely now refer the Austin book, to some extent because it gives a lot more "philosophy" and a lot less "political justification" than does Wilson's books. Wilson's work is good too, but if I recall correctly Austin's citations and examples from the text are much more detailed. (Now that I think about it I bet Austin read Wilson's book, and future writers can build on both of these as they extend the work in the same direction.)

Does it have shortcomings? In my humble view I would say yes, but they pale in comparison to the good work that the book achieves. Two things I would point out:

(1) The book is entirely devoid, if I read it correctly, of any discussion of canonics / epistemology. I think that's a significant omission, and I would love to have seen her intellect applied to that issue in the same way she attacked many others. Unfortunately I think the absence of that discussion plays into my point two:

(2) If she had taken to heart more of Epicurus' advise as to "waiting" and consideration of "multiple causes," she might not have been so quick to cite some of her contemporary examples on what she takes to be matters of "fact" that not everyone will agree with. The constant temptation of current writers seems to be to want to justify their interest in the subject by wrapping in contemporary political positions, and given the nature of these as controversial, I think the tactic detracts from the overall persuasiveness of the philosophy as a whole. I do agree with most of her example applications, but I wouldn't myself want to suggest that Epicurus would have had a specific position on the World Economic Forum, John McCain, John F. Kennedy, or many of the other contemporary hot-button examples she uses. I understand the desire to make books relevant, but sometimes getting too far into contemporary details can be off-putting, especially given Epicurus' own apparent disposition to keep his advice general rather than personally specific. No doubt there are Epicurean aspects to the World Economic forum and non-Epicurean aspects of the forum, but the political controversy that surrounds it tugs on the emotions and risks distortions in ways that less political examples would not involve. If I recall correctly she does a lot less of this than does Catherine Wilson, but it's still a shame to risk diluting the attractiveness of Epicurus according to one's current political persuasion. Gosh knows my own views have changed over time but I've always tried to keep an open mind on the deepest philosophical ideas. At this point I no longer feel it's a good idea to label contemporary figures as "Epicurean" or "non-Epicurean" given how many factors are involved and how complicated situations can be. She's at her best when she cites "evergreen" examples like children or nature or other situations that really do speak for themselves.

And as per the comments already in this thread, I think Emily Austin is more "in tune" with Epicurus than most anyone else I have read in a very long time. Of course that comes across as implying that she's "in tune with Cassius" but I really don't mean to describe it that way. As I see it she takes a very DeWittian approach of looking at each of the major controversies about Epicurus (from marriage, children, gods, etc) and she finding a very reasonable and persuasive sympathetic position. Of course she fails my standard test of "if they don't cite DeWitt in the notes then they're probably no good!" but at this point in Academia that's par for the course, and if she cited him for anything she would probably get herself banned from polite academic company

Anyway I look forward to the comments of others. This is a REALLY good book to use from here on out in reaching out to new people. And in terms of things like her suggestion as to what Lucretius intended for the end of book six, she's pointing in new directions that will be fascinating to explore.

When the day started I had no idea this book existed and found it by accident. It's been a great day reading it!

Addenda: In relation to the epistemology comment above, it occurs to me that might have been a good idea to include in the physics discussion the observations of her fellow North Carolina professor Gellar-Goad that we mentioned recently as to Epicurus' position on the size of the sun. That would have at least introduced the topic of Epicurus's hesitance to embrace theories that contradict appearances even when those theories end up being found to have merit when the technology to analyze appearances improves later. For reference that is discussed here.