Posts by Cassius

Kalosyni's "Weight Loss" post has led me to reorganize the forums slightly and move her post and a number of other related topics into a "Self-Improvement" category. We eventually need to emphasize this topic more so we can have more discussion of "daily life" issues. It would eventually be good to organize this topic into a major project and eventually do a separate podcast or even video channel with someone hosting discussions on this global topic. This will move us more into "daily life" discussions and can cover almost anything with the notable exception of the single topic of contemporary politics which is too divisive for our purposes. Over time as we think about if anyone wants to volunteer to spearhead this let us know. We need almost a "talk-show" like personality to help us showcase this area. In the meantime here is the reorganized forum:

Epicurean Self-Improvement

You know that line from Virgil really does kind of sum up the whole poem, doesn't it? But it would still need the kind of transition from Thucydides that Emily Austin suggests to get from what is now actually the last line to Virgil's kind of finale / flourish of a statement.

Also:

Probably interesting to not also that the sentiments of VS47 could also fit for what a person of Epicurean attitude among those people would have been thinking as well. Some type of connection might also explain the otherwise weird phrasing, and I don't gather we know the date when the Vatican sayings were compiled or their source:

VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and I have closed off every one of your devious entrances. And we will not give ourselves up as captives, to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for us to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who cling to it maundering, we will leave from life singing aloud a glorious triumph-song on how nicely we lived.

Quote from Don

Correct me if I'm misremembering, but Lucretius's poem was considered unfinished even in the ancient world, right?

Very good question but if so I am not aware of anything to establish that. Isn't one of the only ancient comments someone (a church father?) making the comment about Cicero "emending" it?

Joshua has me thinking about this subject again due to his post about the plague. Rather than put this note in that thread and disrupt the chain of thought, I will add this here:

If in fact the point of the ending is related to the point that the citizens of Athens who lived through the Plague were thereby freed from their religious superstitions (as Emily Austin suggests), it strikes me that the famous lines from Virgil might actually fit at the very end of the poem too.

Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas

Atque metus omnes, et inexorabile fatum

Subjecit pedibus, strepitumque Acherontis avari

Which translates to something like:

Happy was he who was able to learn the causes of things,
and who set under his feet all fear of unrelenting fate,

and the noise of greedy Acheron.

Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas - Wikipedia

Wouldn't it be interesting if Virgil was thinking of the end of Lucretius' poem when he inserted that line into verse 490 of Book 2 of the "Georgics" (29 BC)?

Joshua I should look up what Santayana said before writing this, but as usual I will blunder forward without doing my research:

Is Santayana looking for Mars just to balance Venus in the opening because he thinks there should be another reference to the role of gods?

Maybe Lucretius had no desire to balance gods but to leave them behind, and the full reason for ending on the death and destruction note is that he intended to state or at least evoke the true ending of the Plague story, which is that the people of Athens gave up on worrying about the gods at all, and tried to enjoy life as best the could?

I gather that is what Emily Austin's book is suggesting?

And if so Santayana would be wrong in looking for an allusion about gods except as to a dismissal of them? (Meaning that part of Lucretius' point was that Mars on the warpath is exactly what did NOT happen to cause the plague?)

Welcome @musbarton !

Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Yes Happy Birthday Onenski. We really appreciate your participation in the forum and our Zoom events!

Happy Birthday to Onenski! Learn more about Onenski and say happy birthday on Onenski's timeline: Onenski

Absolutely in my case probably head and shoulders THE most important book in turning my thinking was Thomas Paine's Age of Reason. For me it was important in opening my mind to see that someone with a pretty sterling "Founding Father" reputation thought the way he did. Starting with that I went on a binge reading campaign of other deist writers, and of course including Jefferson's material as well. But Age of Reason stands out as so clearly written as to be in a class by itself. So many writings of that period seem dated when you read them today, but Paine's writing style seemed to me (at least at the time) to be like it was written yesterday.

Yes you're right of course that Paine and most of the others in that period were into Deism, so that's a major limitation. Figuring out why they considered themselves to be materialists but refused to go full Epicurean would be an interesting study in itself.

Eventually the deism reading led me to Thomas Cooper who produced some good material too, which I have found useful at times with religious people:

https://thomascoopermd.com

Especially his Jeffferson-endorsed: Scripture Doctrine of Materialism

Ok - human physiology now has its own forum:

Modern Research Into issues Relevant to Epicurean Views In Human Physiology

OK we will split this off

I didn't realize that the PDF supporting the article is behind a paywall. A search of cellular memory indicates some people think it is quackery, but other articles seem to take it seriously. Might be worth splitting this off into a separate topic if anyone is interested or has access to the full ScienceDirect article to see how serious it is.

Body memory - Wikipedia

Could Memory Traces Exist in Cell Bodies?

The long-held belief that memories are stored at synapses—the junctions between cells—may not be the full story

www.scientificamerican.com

Inherited Memory in Organ Transplant Recipients

Imagine waking up after surgery knowing you have someone else's heart in your chest. Now imagine coming to the shocking realization that with this gift of life…

discover.hubpages.com

Cellular memory hints at the origins of intelligence - Nature

Slime mould displays remarkable rhythmic recall.

www.nature.com

Also, probably more closely related to particle flows affecting the brain directly:

- https://www.webmd.com/brain/news/201…-does-it-matter

I seem to remember that we may have discussed this before, but can't remember at the moment:

Why Epicurus Matters Today | The Mantle

Dr Ben Gazur – #FolkloreThursday

This thread comes to mind because Joshua recently took a stab at a diagram of Epicurean epistemology that he prepared on Draw.io. The picture below is just an excerpt to liven up this post, but the full current product is available here:

Joshua obviously put a lot of work into this, but it's a huge project, and a lot of the benefit will come from annotating what the branches and boxes are intended to illustrate.

I am going to pin this thread to the Canonics section, and I will try to work on a variation myself. There should be a variety of technologies that would help us, so don't feel obligated to stick with Draw.io . I think there are probably free and collaborative "mind map" alternatives that would do the job as well, so we are very open to proposals on how this might be accomplished.

I haven't had time to study Joshua's first draft, but I feel sure that a large part of the difficulty is going to be to try to somehow illustrate "core" aspects of what Epicurus was suggesting, which would apply to most every question to be considered by the mind, while also separately showing that there are "non-core" circumstantial inputs that need to be shown in order to see the big picture. I am not at all sure what format makes best sense to use to show that. A tree, starting with roots and growing up to a trunk with branches? Or is it best to use sort of a time line view as Joshua has done, or some other format entirely?

Such a diagram would always end up being very conceptual, but might well help us think about the issues that are involved.

It also strikes me that what we are talking about is not entirely different from Artificial Intelligence models, and there are very likely all sorts of new web technologies being developed to assist with that. Maybe some kind of Epicurean Canonical AI-bot is also something to consider.

All suggestion are welcome!

I don't know anything about this person or his book but I just saw this on Twitter:

[ADMIN EDIT - This thread was split off from here: RE: "Epicurean Philosophy: An Introduction from the 'Garden of Athens'" edited by Christos Yapijakis Possibly the topic name needs further adjustment, and I see we don't really have a forum dedicated to "human body" issues. We can set one up if needed. The topic is really something more like "Modern Research that might link to Epicurean Views of Images and other influences on the mind.]

Probably way off topic but this just caught my eye. Probably reflective of how we need to be flexible in keeping open to undiscovered - but natural - ways that thoughts can be influenced by physical changes:

Personality changes following heart transplantation: The role of cellular memory

Personality changes following heart transplantation, which have been reported for decades, include accounts of recipients acquiring the personality ch…

www.sciencedirect.com

History is complicated and I am sure the Stoics would howl at that. And the Sedley article on the Ethics of Brutus and Cassius implies that the Stoics were not the most consistent of fighters (Brutus was not primarily a Stoic and apparently there were not many Stoics helping B & C against Caesar).

But at the very least I think it is safe to say philosophically that when you think you have a divine sanction, or a categorical imperative that everyone should follow the same rules all the time and everywhere, then you have a strong tendency to plant seeds that will likely grow into a major conflict that will violate all sorts of otherwise ethical norms.

From Don's link:

Also, I was trying to think of examples of phenomena that might not seem crazy to entertain.

It's not just in movies, but how many times have we "felt" that someone out of our vision was looking at us. Maybe I've seen too many war movies where the explorers say "We're being watched" but I do from personal experience think that there are times we "feel" something going on which is not strictly a matter of hearing rustling leaves or catching glimpses of things out of the corner of our eyes. I need to read back up the thread to see the list Don gave, but I don't think it is likely a good bet to draw a bright line at "five" or "six" or "ten" or whatever. The big issue is whatever there is is going to be natural, and in order to believe it it's going to require repetition and some kind of concrete demonstration of its reality.