Posts by Cassius

Quote from Don

Maybe there's a podcast episode or two in the future?

Oh definitely yes, we have not given that work nearly the attention it deserves. I will admit, however, that it's probably the most challenging of any that we might attack, and we'll definitely want to spend some time reading Sedley's analysis, and the extensive appendices by DeLacey in his book, before we tackle it.

Right now my inclination is for us to go on the counterattack on ethics first, and deal with Cicero's "Book Two" of On Ends, so that we can begin to give Torquatus and Epicurean Philosophy the "last word" that they were denied in Cicero's rendition.

In the section of this podcast where Joshua cited John Tyndal's Belfast address, I drew attention to a question of whether John Tyndal was going further than Frances Wright in being willing to draw deductions about things beyond the senses from observations that the senses do allow us to make.

In editing that section it occurred to me to do a word search of "A Few Days In Athens" for "atoms," and the result surprised me. There is very little mention of atoms in AFDIA except brief mentions in Chapters 15 and 16. That to me would reinforce the question I was drawing out in the podcast - that the willingness to infer details beyond the physical evidence is an important topic in which the issues discussed by Epicurus and Philodemus in "On Signs / On Methods of Inference" present some pretty important questions for further thought. Something to come back to later.

#AFewDaysInAthens #Canonics

Quote from Don

It's a similar situation to the Bible in that there were no "verses" in the original texts. Scholars started dividing the New Testament into verses in the 1400-1500s. Maybe the artificial divisions are an outgrowth of that tendency.

Yes makes sense. So to avoid drawing any improper conclusions from the "absence" of divisions, it would be necessary to know of some ancient texts where divisions *were* used. If everything in ancient Latin and Greek was in fact run together without much break then not much can be inferred.

Quote from Don

I'm also, in part, placing this here to serve as notes for myself and anyone else who wants to dive in to this

Good idea. We really need to pin this down. It's logical to have a way to keep track of the sentences, but the artificial division introduces an overlay of meaning that needs to be kept in the background - by "force" if necessary.

Plus I don't think we should lose sight of the "celestial book" references, and we should consider how this "list":which may not really be a list might be related to that. If such a book were of manageable length would Diogenes Laertius really have left it out of his collection?

Numbering is not exactly a mystical art. If Epicurus or the later school leaders had thought separation and numbering were important or helpful, then presumably they could easily have numbered them themselves - and if they did not, that is significant.

OK so we established there that the 40 enumeration probably does not date before the 1800's or so I gather,.

So that would indicate the numbered divisions are no older than the 1600's.... Would be very interesting to know who first used them!

Welcome bluebudgie !

Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

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We've added a new section to the front page - a "Table of Key Tags" which appears right after the "Table of Key Discussions." (Scroll down the page and you will see it.)

Personally I have not used the "Tag" feature of the forum very much, but it is a very useful addition to the organization of the site into Forum Sections and Threads.

Generally when starting or looking for an existing thread, it's a good idea to look at the "Table of Key Discussions" to help find the place to post. However any discussion might contain a post that contains information of importance to a key concept (tag) that's outside the scope of the discussion, so when making a post or adding a picture or an article you can use either the dedicated "Tag" box for the post or simply add the familiar #Hashtag format to create a tag.

The "Table of Key Tags" also serves the purpose of reminding people of what the most important tags are and helps standardize them, so that for example we generally use #Twentieth rather than some other form such as 20er.

Tags which appear in white mean that there are no matches yet, but let's start to use those so they fill in.

Tags can be created at will simply by using the # sign in front of the word, just like other sites such as Twitter. However in order to keep the table manageable, only key tag concepts will be listed in the box.

If you have suggestions as to how better to use this feature, or for 'key tags" which deserve a place in the "Table of Key Tags" box, please let us know in this thread.

In a recent Zoom session TauPhi mentioned that he had seen and appreciated this lecture series on Lucretius. I haven't had a chance to review it myself but wanted to post the link so in the future we can refer to it and discuss it.

Great notes Joshua - thank you!!!

In this episode (unless I decide to cut it out) I analogized at least some of the Epicurean speculations about the nature of the gods to the type of thing we do today, in speculating what life might be like in the future with great advances in medical technology and science.

And of course that brings to mind a cultural example of this, which some of us are old enough to remember. The specifics of this video are not at all Epicurean as to god "starting over" and so forth, but it does have a catchy tune:

Welcome to Episode 180 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics. We are now in the process of a series of podcasts intended to provide a general overview of Epicurean philosophy based on the organizational structure employed by Norman DeWitt in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy." This week we continue our discussion of Chapter 13, entitled "The True Piety."

Chapter XIII - The True Piety

• Gradation In Godhead
• Incorruptibility And Virtue
• Isonomy And the Gods
• The Life of the Gods
• Communion And Fellowship
• Prophecy And Prayer

- Gradation In Godhead

+ starting at 263 we may talk about the issue of images making up the gods like the issue of drops of water making up a river.

- Incorruptibility And Virtue

+ the maintenance of their own incorruptibility is ascribed to the gods as a virtue.

+ Epicurus himself did not call the gods immortal.

+ Thus it must be discerned that just

as the happiness of man is self-achieved, so the happiness of the gods is

self-preserved.

- p268 Plutarch, for example, who, though hostile. wrote with texts of Epi.

curus before him, has this to say: "Freedom from pain along with

incorruptibility should have been inherent in the nature of the blissful

being, standing in no need of active concern:'

- the gods are consequently

not deathless, only incorruptible; this incorruptibility, not being in-

herent. demands some sort of conservation. which can only be ascribed

to the foresight and effort of the gods themselves. This. then, is their

virtue. to preserve their own happiness and incorruptibility.

Here is part of Dewitt's reference:

Quote

"Since the prophet Daniel, for instance, was believed to have been inspired by God, it was to be expected that his prophecies would be fulfilled by God. Prophecy was subsidiary to divine providence. In conformity with this view Josephus gives a somewhat extended account of the prophecies of Daniel and their precise fulfillments, thus demonstrating for his readers the falsity of the Epicurean doctrines, which he rehearses at suitable length."

And here from Josephus is the concluding aspect of that section, referencing the Epicureans:

Quote

"And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel’s vision; and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government; and that our countrey should be made desolate by them. All these things did this man leave in writing, as God had shewed them to him. Insomuch that such as read his prophecies, and see how they have been fulfilled, would wonder at the honour wherewith God honoured Daniel; and may thence discover how the Epicureans are in an error, who cast providence out of human life; and do not believe that God takes care of the affairs of the world; nor that the universe is governed and continued in being by that blessed and immortal nature: but say, that the world is carried along of its own without a ruler and a curator: which were it destitute of a guide, to conduct it, as they imagine, it would be like ships without pilots; which we see drowned by the winds: or like chariots without drivers, which are overturned: so would the world be dashed to pieces by its being carried without a providence, and so perish and come to nought. So that by the forementioned predictions of Daniel those men seem to me very much to err from the truth, who determine that God exercises no providence over human affairs. For if that were the case, that the world went on by mechanical necessity, we should not see that all things would come to pass according to his prophecy. Now as to my self I have so described these matters as I have found them and read them. But if any one is inclined to another opinion about them, let him enjoy his different sentiments without any blame from me."

Glad to have you Evan!

Also as to voluptas, would not the most literal be "pleasure," as in Latin there is no more basic word for pleasure than voluptas, correct?

I recall that we have discussed that before and they delight sounds better to us, but for strict literalness "pleasure" would be more strictly plain?

Latin Definition for: voluptas, voluptatis (ID: 39082) - Latin Dictionary and Grammar Resources - Latdict

I do think that we could pick some super important passages and make such a project both useful and manageable.

And a list of super important passages would be a great exercise in itself.

See, for example:

humanacomparison.jpg []

Just so I understand your message, would not Leonard and 1743 in line 1 get a "1" because they used "Rome" and not the literal "Aeneas" or "Aeneads"?

It is a great idea though, and it helps to post ideas, because at some point someone may have the time and resources to do it, or they think up a better way. So thanks for posting this!

Welcome to Episode 179 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics. We are now in the process of a series of podcasts intended to provide a general overview of Epicurean philosophy based on the organizational structure employed by Norman DeWitt in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy." This week we continue our discussion of Chapter 13, entitled "The True Piety."

Chapter XIII - The True Piety

• The Form of the Gods
• Gradation In Godhead
• Incorruptibility And Virtue
• Isonomy And the Gods
• The Life of the Gods
• Communion And Fellowship
• Prophecy And Prayer

Quote from Nate

in support of there being a natural kind of anger, we have [indeed] replied that the sage will become angry."

May seem counter-intuitive to celebrate this statement, but I think this is very useful in reinforcing the statement in Diogenes Laertius just before 118 to the effect that "He [the wise man] will be more deeply moved by feelings, but this will not prove an obstacle to wisdom." Texts like this help separate the Epicurean school from those who overdose on calmness, tranquility, and imperturbability. I would expect Epicurus would be happy to leave those extremes to the Stoics or Buddhists and the like, and that Epicurus would endorse "appropriate" responsive feeling to most any situation. And I doubt I really need to hedge with the "most" in that sentence.

It has been pointed out to me that my "other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play" joke might be misunderstood. I used the smile icon, but I better be more clear:

And I do indeed see in looking it up places like here that it is now being given a different meaning than what I understood. This is absolutely NOT the meaning of the phrase as i have grown up understanding it:

"A sarcastic phrase meant to downplay the complaint or misfortune of another person, similar to playing the world's tiniest violin with one's fingers."

As I grew up understanding it, the phrase was meant to be a joke which emphasizes that something huge (usually bad) has been mentioned, and that everything else (such as "how was the play") pales in comparison to that big event. So it's actually an inverted expression of agreement in how bad the event referenced really was.

For example, the use here in reference to a particularly bad day on Wall Street with few redeeming good things happening: https://www.pensford.com/industry-news/…lay-mrs-lincoln

Or here, where it is said jokingly that "on top of that..." nuclear war would be a climate problem: https://www.mikesmithenterprisesblog.com/2022/03/other-…rs-lincoln.html

Or this, which references the phrase as a "droll understatement" - https://www.nickharvilllibraries.com/blog/-other-th…lay-mrs-lincoln

So in this case, "other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play?" was not a sarcastic reference to what was stated in the previous post, but an agreement that the issue of alienating friends and family can be so important that it would be tempting to say that any offsetting benefits would be minimal.

I hope no one misconstrued the reference! I did not intend to write so much about this but I am surprised to find the "sick" joke references on the internet which seem to change the meaning completely.