As Kalosyni and others have noted, we interviewed Emily Austin earlier in Podcasts 156 and 157, so we don't want a straight repeat of what we've already discussed with her before. I'm thinking that the intervening months since then have opened up lots of room for follow-up thought on interviews and responses she has received since then, so let's think about that angle as part of thinking up questions so we can make the most of our time with her.
Then I discovered this forum; at that time writing and developing personal outlines of the philosophy was being emphasized. I found writing and getting feedback on an outline was very helpful, a bit intimidating, and just a beginning.
We should begin to emphasis that again and keep at it!
Also as to the Cyreniacs, Diogenes Laertius records:
He differs from the Cyrenaics with regard to pleasure. They do not include under the term the pleasure which is a state of rest, but only that which consists in motion. Epicurus admits both; also pleasure of mind as well as of body, as he states in his work On Choice and Avoidance and in that On the Ethical End, and in the first book of his work On Human Life and in the epistle to his philosopher friends in Mytilene.
So also Diogenes in the seventeenth book of his Epilecta, and Metrodorus in his Timocrates, whose actual words are: “Thus Pleasure being conceived both as that species which consists in motion and that which is a state of rest.” The words of Epicurus in his work On Choice are : “Peace of mind and freedom from pain are pleasures which imply a state of rest; joy and delight are seen to consist in motion and activity.”
He further disagrees with the Cyrenaics in that they hold that pains of body are worse than mental pains; at all events evil-doers are made to suffer bodily punishment; whereas Epicurus holds the pains of the mind to be the worse; at any rate the flesh endures the storms of the present alone, the mind those of the past and future as well as the present. In this way also he holds mental pleasures to be greater than those of the body.
Don is this commentary from Bailey about the section we are examining? As usual Bailey spins hard for minimalism...
An admonition against sleeping or idleness would remind me of this from Jefferson's letter to William Short:
I take the liberty of observing that you are not a true disciple of our master Epicurus, in indulging the indolence to which you say you are yielding. One of his canons, you know, was that “that indulgence which prevents a greater pleasure, or produces a greater pain, is to be avoided.” Your love of repose will lead, in its progress, to a suspension of healthy exercise, a relaxation of mind, an indifference to everything around you, and finally to a debility of body, and hebetude of mind, the farthest of all things from the happiness which the well-regulated indulgences of Epicurus ensure; fortitude, you know is one of his four cardinal virtues. That teaches us to meet and surmount difficulties; not to fly from them, like cowards; and to fly, too, in vain, for they will meet and arrest us at every turn of our road. Weigh this matter well; brace yourself up;
Kalsoyni asked me about that and every other translation I can find (Bailey, Hicks, Yonge, Epicurus Wiki) focuses on prodigal and sensuality.
If it is correct that "sleeping" or "idleness" should be in here, that places a much different spin on the advice and will be very helpful in fighting back the slant that "tranquility' means that Epicureans just want to lay around and do nothing. It would almost be a mirror of VS63 warning against opposite extremes of luxury and frugality.
Also: VS11. For most men rest is stagnation, and activity is madness.
I wonder if the word translated as "stagnation" there is relevant?
How could the standard translations be incorrect on this? Are they bringing to the table what they expect to see?
TC - You are right to want to read the original materials, and right that there is much disagreement.
The biography by Diogenes Laertius contains three letters by Epicurus himself, and there are fragments that seem reliable but no way to be sure.
This is a continuing source of confusion that is not going away. Most everyone has exactly the same question, and if they don't, they aren't paying attention.
This should be a great thread to get lots of different views from those of us who have been through this before.
Welcome to Episode 176 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics. We are now in the process of a series of podcasts intended to provide a general overview of Epicurean philosophy based on the organizational structure employed by Norman DeWitt in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy." This week we continue our discussion of Chapter 12, entitled "The New Hedonism."
This week;
The Root of All Good
Pleasure Can Be Continuous
Next Week:
Continuous Pain Impossible
The Relation of Pleasure To Virtue
Let's use THIS thread of Kalosyni's to accumulate questions for Emily Austin:
In order for us to handle the Q&A with Dr. Austin efficiently, it would be good to have a list of prepared questions that Kalosyni or other moderators of the discussion can use to start everything off.
We will compile a list such as (for example only):
1 - If you were writing the book over again today, would you change anything?
2 - What plans do you have for future writing on Epicurus?
cris.vedanta has already posted in the forum - here:
Welcome cris.vedanta !
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 72 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.
In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
Here is a thread from facebook by Christiano Luchini, the author of this new work.
I haven't read this and can't yet comment on the content or any aspect of it, but I see Elli is reading it and I will report back on her comments.
Epicureanism, one of the most important philosophical currents of antiquity, spread to Rome during the first century B.C., thanks to the work of masters such as Lucretius and Philodemus of Gadara. However, Epicurean philosophy found its most suitable environment in Campania, a southern region of Italy, where the beauty of the Gulf of Naples attracted many intellectuals, artists and men of culture.
I wrote a historical thriller, in English, called "The Posillipo Enigma," set in Naples at the time of the Epicurean School of Naples. Virgil will have to investigate the death of the philosopher Sirone.
Thanks for the attention.
Greetings from Napoli, Italy.
Responses:
Elli:
"The Posillipo Εnigma". It sounds interesting!
The word "Enigma" comes from the greek word "Αίνιγμα" [Aenigma] and means something that is difficult to interpret, something that remains a mystery, uncertain, inexplicable, ambiguous, paradoxical, inscrutable. Something that is not obvious!
IMO the enigma has been solved! It is obvious, and it's given with the one word that is "Posillipo".
"Posillipo" comes from the greek word "Παυσίλυπον" [Pausílypon], that means "which that ceases sorrow/sadness". What ceases sorrow and sadness? Pleasure, of course, the greatest good!
Christiano:
Elli Pensa It is very interesting and passionate reflection, but it is not related to my book. Posillipo is first of all a beautiful hilly and scenic place in Naples, a wonderful city in southern Italy. It was named so by the Greeks precisely because of the beauty to contemplate that ceases all fears and sorrows.
Elli: Cristiano Luchini hello and joy
Yes, I' ve heard for this beautiful place in Naples with the name as Posillipo. However, as an epicurean I got into the point quickly to solve your Enigma. Epicureans like to solve the mysteries and enigmas and whatever is uncertain and foggy. Besides, for epicureans, behind any Enigma only one thing is the obvious: "atoms and the void"
Christiano:
Here is " The Posillipo Enigma." I am considering writing a series. In the meantime, I started with the first book.
https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=ury9EAAAQBAJ
Elli:
Cristiano Luchini In your prologue you wrote: "The school of Posillipo and its founder Sirone – a renowned epicurean philosopher - who meets a sudden and mysterious end, and his friend Virgil begins investigating the enigmatic villa and its secrets".
I will read your book of course, it seems interesting, but in the meantime, I would like to give another probability on who murdered Sirone, the Epicurean philosopher.
Well, the murderer was a furious idealist-platonist, like those furious idealists-platonists that chased after Epicurus in the island of Lesbos in the city of Mytilene. Epicurus with his teachings caused unrest to the platonists, so Epicurus run away from there, and before they lynched him.
Copying here a post of Elli on Facebook (where she helps keep the Epicurean Philosophy group alive while we work on more content here!)
Speaking of Philodemus always comes to my mind the city of Herculaneum in which Philodemus had lived, as well as the father in law of Ceasar that was Piso who was the same that had built the famous Villa of Papyri with that catastrophic eruption of the volcano Vesuvius that destroyed same city in Italy. And then three sayings comes to my mind the 30 & 31 & 47 that were written by Metrodorus.
30. Some men throughout their lives spend their time gathering together the means of life, for they do not see that the draught swallowed by all of us at birth is a draught of death.
Paraphrasing:
30. Some men throughout their lives spend their time gathering together the means of life (e.g. singing that famous song entitled "Funiculì funiculà" - hear at the youtube video) for they do not see that the draught swallowed by all of us at birth is a draught of death (e.g. what a silly decision is to build your villa next to Vesuvius).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH0TMmgPtjg
31. Against all else it is possible to provide security, but as against death all of us mortals alike dwell in an unfortified city.
Paraphrasing:
31. Against all else it is possible to provide security, but as against death all of us mortals alike dwell next to the mount of the volcano Vesuvius.
And in the end the ES 47 which says: I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well.
In the above ES 47 it is like hearing Metrodorus saying to Philodemus: Hey epicurean friend Philodemus, I have the impression that you did not anticipate on the issue of "Fortune" and you took many risks to give yourself captive against its secret attack that is for living in the city next to the volcano Vesuvius. But anyway, the eruption of Vesuvius preserved your Papyri on Epicurean philosophy that proves that you have lived well. That is to say the general picture is: in a catrastroph (death) of something, it is the creation (born) of a new one else.
And as the archeologists are digging and digging in Herculaneum the only thing they will discover is the New Man i.e. the hyperman by Epicurus and Nietzsche.
And here is a nice video about the life that was in Antiquity of Herculaneum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zSN18Xk8jU&t=3505s
In this video there is a remarkable note: the same wine of ancient Romans that produced in Herculaneum and made them joyfull... in our days became as "the tears of Christ".
Episode 175 of the podcast is now available!
Like "location location location" in real estate!
It is kind of ironic! In many cases it makes sense to avoid politics, in many other cases it is essential to charge right in! In truth politics is just another example of exercising prudence to chose your actions wisely, and not a place for a flat prohibition any more than any other place in life!
Welcome AydenNewman !
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 72 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.
In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
Welcome RexWatts !
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 72 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.
In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
“Stop calculating, Boss,” Zorba continued. “Forget numbers, break those disgusting scales, close the grocer’s shop.”
Yes if VS71 was saying that in a "logical" / "calculating" way totally, then I think your concern would be valid. But Epicurus makes clear that the only criteria is pleasure and pain, and those are feelings, not widgets or numbers that can be absolutely quantified.
I would even say that that has to be kept in mind in considering the "natural and necessary" evaluation. Other than food, water, shelter, clothing, and a few other things, one's calculation of what is appropriate to pursue is going to be so contextual as to alleviate any concern of undue asceticism or rigidity.
If you approach things the right way, rather than thinking you are Plato plotting out the answer through geometry, or that logic will hand everyone the same answers, then you should have any concern that would spoil your martini!
