Posts by Cassius

Quote from warjuning

My thoughts and beliefs are still being formed, but I am glad to share them here

And thank you very much for doing so!

Wow great post! This is such a an important point, and you do a great job of linking it to the specifics of friendship, like it should be linked to everything else:

Quote from warjuning

just because something is relative, it does not mean it is not objective and real. They seem to think that if the person does not possess intrinsic value outside of its relations, then it cannot possess it in its relations either. But I think that an Epicurean response could address that presupposition by pointing out that relative properties can truly belong to an object, personal or not, due to their causal contribution (if I got this right. I have Polystratus' reasoning in mind).

Epicurus does not say that just because something is the abstract product of experience and reflection over time that it is not "real" and that we should not consider it capable of generating pleasure and pain that are also very real to us.

I see this as a subset of the phrase I am pilfering from David Sedley that Epicurus was not a radical atomic reductionist. Even though it is true that only atoms have an eternal unchanging existence, the "qualities" that emerge from combinations of atoms have just as much "truth" to them as do the atoms themselves, and it is wrong for us to act as if our level of existence is less "important" to us than the atomic level. The pleasure and pain that result from friendship relationships may not have the same permanence as the atoms themselves, but they are among the most important to us in life.

Thanks for the post Warjuning.

I didn't have time to read the full thing yet but I see this from the conclusion.

Quote

Considering SV 66 and SV 39 each within the context of Epicurus’ other writings on friendship in particular, and his ethics more generally, strengthens the case that Epicureanism is both directly egoistic and committed to other-concern. Addi-tionally, the most plausible understanding of friendship is one according to which the other-concern required by it is compatible with avowing our own good as our only final good. We are, if I am correct, left with no reason to think that committed Epicureans cannot have genuine friends.

Seems like lost of people (including some shaky Epicureans) think that the anti-Epicureans have point in arguing that if you follow Epicurus you can't truly have friendship, but this has always been a very poor argument and it looks like the article hits the right points.

Probably good here to include the way Torquatus dealt with this:

[65] XX. One topic remains, which is of prime importance for this discussion, that relating to friendship, which you declare will cease to exist, if pleasure be the supreme good, yet Epicurus makes this declaration concerning it, that of all the aids to happiness procured for us by wisdom, none is greater than friendship, none more fruitful, none more delightful. Nor in fact did he sanction this view by his language alone, but much more by his life and actions and character. And the greatness of friendship is made evident by the imaginary stories of the ancients, in which, numerous and diversified as they are, and reaching back to extreme antiquity, scarce three pairs of friends are mentioned, so that beginning with Theseus you end with Orestes. But in truth within the limits of a single school, and that restricted in numbers, what great flocks of friends did Epicurus secure, and how great was that harmony of affection wherein they all agreed! And his example is followed by the Epicureans in our day also. But let us return to our theme; there is no need to speak of persons.

[66] I see then that friendship has been discussed by our school in three ways. Some, denying that the pleasures which affect our friends are in themselves as desirable to us as those we desire for ourselves, a view which certain persons think shakes the foundation of friendship, still defend their position, and in my opinion easily escape from their difficulties. For they affirm that friendship, like the virtues of which we spoke already, cannot be dissociated from pleasure. Now since isolation and a life without friends abound in treacheries and alarms, reason herself advises us to procure friendships, by the acquisition of which the spirit is strengthened, and cannot then be severed from the hope of achieving pleasures.

[67] And as enmity, spitefulness, scorn, are opposed to pleasures, so friendships are not only the truest promoters, but are actually efficient causes of pleasures, as well to a man's friends as to himself; and friends not only have the immediate enjoyment of these pleasures but are elate with hope as regards future and later times. Now because we can by no means apart from friendship preserve the agreeableness of life strong and unbroken, nor further can we maintain friendship itself unless we esteem our friends in the same degree as ourselves; on that account this principle is acted on in friendship, and so friendship is linked with pleasure. Truly we both rejoice at the joy of our friends as much as at our own joy, and we are equally pained by their vexations.

[68] Therefore the wise man will entertain the same feeling for his friend as for himself, and the very same efforts which he would undergo to procure his own pleasure, these he will undergo to procure that of his friend. And all that we said of the virtues to shew how they always have their root in pleasures, must be said over about friendship. For it was nobly declared by Epicurus, almost in these words: "It is one and the same feeling which strengthens the mind against the fear of eternal or lasting evil, and which clearly sees that in this actual span of life the protection afforded by friendship is the most powerful of all."

[69] There are however certain Epicureans who are somewhat more nervous in facing the reproaches of your school, but are still shrewd enough ; these are afraid that if we suppose friendship to be desirable with a view to our own pleasure, friendship may appear to be altogether maimed, as it were. So they say that while the earliest meetings and associations and tendencies towards the establishment of familiarity do arise on account of pleasure, yet when experience has gradually produced intimacy, then affection ripens to such a degree that though no interest be served by the friendship, yet friends are loved in themselves and for their own sake. Again, if by familiarity we get to love localities, shrines, cities, the exercise ground, the park, dogs, horses, and exhibitions either of gymnastics or of combats with beasts, how much more easily and properly may this come about when our familiarity is with human beings?

[70] Men are found to say that there is a certain treaty of alliance which binds wise men not to esteem their friends less than they do themselves. Such alliance we not only understand to be possible, but often see it realized, and it is plain that nothing can be found more conducive to pleasantness of life than union of this kind. From all these different views we may conclude that not only are the principles of friendship left unconstrained, if the supreme good be made to reside in pleasure, but that without this view it is entirely impossible to discover a basis for friendship.

When we get to Honesty DeWitt quotes:

"In his book On Kingship he even advised monarchs to entertain themselves with military anecdotes or coarse buffoonery rather than try to counterfeit a refinement they did not possess. This advice must have been galling to young Platonists who groomed themselves for court appointments. It was galling to Plutarch, who reports it."

Here's the Perseus link to the Greek, but if they have the English I can't find the link:

Plutarch, Non posse suaviter vivi secundum Epicurum, stephpage 1095c

It doesn't seem easy to find an English translation of Non Posse so this is something we need to fix.

Edit: - http://demonax.info/doku.php?id=te…ine_of_epicurus

Edit2 - I have posted a copy of the Demonax version here. We need to clean this up over time as the formatting is off and the page numbers do not match how DeWitt quote it.: Plutarch: That it is Not Possible to Live Pleasurably According to the Doctrine of Epicurus If we can find a better public domain copy we can substitute it, or add the correct line numbers to this version.

Thanks to Don (see his post below):

As to the other delights of the mind, we have already treated of them, as they occurred to us. But their aversedness and dislike to music, that affords us so great delights and such charming satisfactions, a man could not forget if he would, by reason of the inconsistency of what Epicurus saith, when he pronounceth in his book called his Doubts that his wise man ought to be a lover of public spectacles and to delight above any other man in the music and shows of the Bacchanals; and yet he will not admit of music problems or of the critical enquiries of philologists, no, not so much as at a compotation. Yea, he advises such princes as are lovers of the Muses rather to entertain themselves at their feasts either with some narration of military adventures or with the importune scurrilities of drolls and buffoons, than to engage in disputes about music or in questions of poetry. For this very thing he had the face to write in his treatise of Monarchy, as if he were writing to Sardanapalus, or to Nanarus satrap of Babylon. For neither would a Hiero nor an Attalus nor an Archelaus be persuaded to make a Euripides, a Simonides, a Melanippides, a Crates, or a Diodotus rise up from their tables, and to place such scaramuchios in their rooms as a Cardax, an Agrias, or a Callias, or fellows like Thrasonides and Thrasyleon, to make people disorder the house with hollowing and clapping. Had the great Ptolemy, who was the first that formed a consort of musicians, but met with these excellent and royal admonitions, would he not, think you, have thus addressed himself to the Samians:

Quote

O Muse, whence art thou thus maligned?

This seems to be reflected in a way in what Torquatus said in Book One:

"Surely no one recoils from or dislikes or avoids pleasure in itself because it is pleasure, but because great pains come upon those who do not know how to follow pleasure rationally.

Nor again is there any one who loves or pursues or wishes to win pain on its own account, merely because it is pain, but rather because circumstances sometimes occur which compel him to seek some great pleasure at the cost of exertion and pain. To come down to petty details, who among us ever undertakes any toilsome bodily exercise, except in the hope of gaining some advantage from it? Who again would have any right to reproach either a man who desires to be surrounded by pleasure unaccompanied by any annoyance, or another man who shrinks from any pain which is not productive of pleasure?"

Any possibility they trying to save space on the paper as much as possible so writing in continuous lines, but somehow marking where lines started on the manuscript from which they were copying?

So do you have any theory at all as to the use of the red?

We don't make a super big deal about birthdays here at Epicureanfriends but we do mark them in this thread. Today's birthday - Nate - is that of someone who plays an important and highly-appreciated role here, so please check out his timeline as a place to mark it - Nate

Happy Birthday to Nate! Learn more about Nate and say happy birthday on Nate's timeline: Nate

I know it is a lot of work so it never hurts to say "Thank you for all your work Don!!"

YES that works!

Quote from Don

Are looking on mobile or laptop?

I am on a laptop (Albeit with a small screen)

Welcome to Episode 182 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics. We are now in the process of a series of podcasts intended to provide a general overview of Epicurean philosophy based on the organizational structure employed by Norman DeWitt in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy."

This week we continue our discussion of Chapter 14, entitled "The New Virtues."

Chapter XIV - The New Virtues

• Justice
• Honesty
• Faith
• Love of Mankind
• Friendship
• Suavity
• Considerateness
• Hope
• Attitude Toward the Present
• Gratitude
• Gratitude to Teachers
• Gratitude to Nature
• Gratitude To Friends
• Fruits Of Gratitude

Well it opens up but to the book cover. I was hoping to find somewhere a direct link to the page where the particular text appears.

I note that clicking on the "Read More" button on the page you are linking to brings up this:

And I note that you are referencing (for example) 402r for this page.

When I look under items 5 and 6 which might seem to apply, I see only Epictetus. I sure hope they didn't mislabel it and I am somehow on the wrong page.

Very frustrating that it does not seem to allow a link to a particular page. Don how long is the whole document - should we screen clip it and post it in a "general" thread in the Vatican Sayings forum? Even if it has a watermark it would probably still be satisfying to see a representation of the whole thing.

We have two graphic entries for this phrase, but not a real thread devoted to the passage directly. I want to feature this quote on the head of the forum for a while, so this will be the page to which we can link.

Wikipedia -

“Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas” is verse 490 of Book 2 of the "Georgics" (29 BC), by the Latin poet Virgil (70 - 19 BC). It is literally translated as: “Fortunate, who was able to know the causes of things”. ^] Virgil may have had in mind the Roman philosopher Lucretius, of the Epicurean school.

Until we come up with one that is at least as literal as this, we can go with this translation, which preserves almost the exact word order:

Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas

Atque metus omnes, et inexorabile fatum

Subjecit pedibus, strepitumque Acherontis avari

Happy was he who was able to know the causes of things,

And all fear, and inexorable fate, he trampled underfoot, along with the roar of greedy Acheron.

Because the key thoughts or so important, I would prefer not to seem them diluted in the interest of rhyme or poetry, but it would be interesting to see other translations or hear other details about the origin of the passage, so please post them.

Below are the two gallery pictures:

So this is combined Italian and Greek, but found in Italy? I would not have thought that inscriptions would be combined in different languages like that

RegionsSicily, Italy, and the West (IG XIV)Italy, incl. Magna Graecia

IGUR III 1245 IGUR III 1244 IGUR III 1246

[ ]
Italia — Roma — 3rd c. AD — IG XIV 1746 — CIL VI 14672 — GVI 1906

This original text may be better than the footnote as it appears significantly more detailed.

Hope we can eventually find a photo of it.

Not sure yet if this is the correct text:

IGUR III 1245 - PHI Greek Inscriptions

D(is) Cerelliae Fortunatae con❦iugi carissimae cum qua M(anibus) v(ixi) ∙ ann(is) ∙ XL ∙ s(ine) u(lla) q(uerella)

M(arcus) ∙ Antonius ∙ Encolpus ∙ fecit ∙ sibi ∙ et ∙ Antonio ∙ Athenaeo

liberto ∙ suo ∙ karissimo ∙ et ∙ libertis ∙ libertabusque ∙ eorum ∙

et ∙ posteris ∙ excepto ∙ M(arco) ∙ Antonio ∙ Athenione ∙ quem ∙ veto ∙

in ∙ eo ∙ monimento ∙ aditum ∙ habere ∙ neque ∙ iter ∙ ambitum ∙

introitum ∙ ullum ∙ in eo ∙ habere ∙ neque ∙ sepulturae ∙ causa ∙

reliquias ∙ eius ∙ posterorumque ∙ eius ∙ inferri ∙ quod ∙ si quis ∙ ad-

versus ∙ hoc ∙ quis ∙ fecerit ∙ tunc ∙ is ∙ qui ∙ fecerit ∙ poenae ∙ nomine ∙

pontificibus ∙ aut ∙ antescolaris ∙ virginum ∙ (sestertium) ∙ L ∙ m(ilia) ∙ n(ummum) ∙ inferre ∙ de-

bebit ∙ ideo ∙ quia ∙ me ∙ pos ∙ multas ∙ iniurias ∙ parentem ∙ sibi ∙ amnegaverit ∙

et ∙ A(ulo) ∙ Lelio ∙ Apeliti ∙ clienti ∙ karissimo ∙ quem ∙ boluerit ∙ do<n>ationis ∙ causa ∙ sarcofa-

gum ∙ eligat ∙ sibi ∙ opter ∙ quod ∙ in tam ma<g>na ∙ clade ∙ non ∙ me ∙ reliquerit ∙ cuius ∙ beneficia ∙ abeo