Posts by Cassius

List of Links from that page:

I would like to read the works that have been recovered from the scrolls so far, where I can I find them?

Most are by Philodemus. This is a list of English translations we have found so far:

• Philodemus: On Anger. (2020), David Armstrong & Michael McOsker. SBL. ISBN 1628372699
• Philodemus: On Death. (2009), W. Benjamin Henry. SBL. ISBN 1-58983-446-1
• Philodemus: On Frank Criticism. (1998), David Konstan, Diskin Clay, Clarence, E. Glad. SBL. ISBN 1-58983-292-2
• Philodemus, On Piety, Part 1. (1996). Critical Text with Commentary by Dirk Obbink. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-815008-3
• Philodemus, On Poems, Book 1. (2001). Edited with Introduction, Translation, and Commentary by Richard Janko. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-815041-5
• Philodemus, On Poems, Book 2, with the fragments of Heracleodorus and Pausimachus. (2020). Edited with Introduction, Translation, and Commentary by Richard Janko. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780198835080
• Philodemus, On Poems, Books 3-4, with the Fragments of Aristotle, On Poets. (2010). Edited with Introduction, Translation, and Commentary by Richard Janko. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-957207-0
• Philodemus, On Property Management. (2013), Voula Tsouna. SBL. ISBN 1-58983-667-7
• Philodemus, On Rhetoric Books 1 and 2: Translation and Exegetical Essays. (2005). Clive Chandler (editor). Routledge. ISBN 0-415-97611-1
• David Sider, (1997), The Epigrams of Philodemos. Introduction, Text, and Commentary. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-509982-6
• Philodemus: On Methods of Inference. 2nd edition. (1978). Phillip Howard De Lacy, Estelle Allen De Lacy. Bibliopolis.

I think we've probably posted this link before, but this is the page for the "Vesuvius Challenge" mentioned in the video.

Vesuvius Challenge

A $1,000,000+ machine learning and computer vision competition

scrollprize.org

It's also interesting that starting around 22 minutes in the video Dr Seales says that a part of his interest is his desire to uncover early Christian material since he is a Christian himself. I wonder if he's read "St Paul and Epicurus."

Thank you again AaronSF! People keep talking about progress over the years, but it seems progress is disappointingly slow. It helps all of us to keep up with the latest news on this issue. (This is from March 16, 2023)

Thank you for this post AaronSF. You are new here and I am not sure of your interests, but if you are knowledgeable about Stoicism or just interested in helping catalog characters such as Balbus I hope you will continue, because I think this kind of thing is very useful.

One day I would like to see us construct sort of a "mind map" listing all these ancient characters so we can put them in perspective timewise and also where they stand philosophically.

That's similar to a project I worked on years ago in mapping the characters in "A Few Days In Athens"

A Map through A Few Days In Athens and the World of Epicurus

A Mind Map about A Map through A Few Days In Athens and the World of Epicurus submitted by CassiusAmicus on Nov 18, 2013. Created with Xmind.

xmind.app

It looks like Xmind has restricted what its free tier can do, and the mind map doesn't seem to allow embedding anymore, so I need to redo this map too at some point.

While Epicurean philosophy can be relatively simple at the highest levels, I think it really helps to draw "mind maps" to see how the details connect, and I hope to work on more of these in the future both as to people and also to show how the ideas fit together.

Thanks Kalosyni - see everyone tonight!

Poll Question

The following post is one of a series so that we can get our collection of the main list of Principal Doctrines under the "Texts" section in better shape. Although this thread will include a "poll" in the next post, what we are really looking for is the "best" combination of faithfulness to the original combined with clarity in modern English. I will get with a collection of the Level 3 participants here to work on editing the final list, but the full discussion should be open to everyone to consider, so that's what we will do here. The results of the poll won't control what is featured on the text page but will definitely influence in and probably at least result in a footnote to this thread.

The English translation of PD07 currently featured here in our Texts section is our normal Cyril Bailey from his Extant Remains:

PD07. Some men wished to become famous and conspicuous, thinking that they would thus win for themselves safety from other men. Wherefore if the life of such men is safe, they have obtained the good which nature craves; but if it is not safe, they do not possess that for which they strove at first by the instinct of nature.

We have access (thanks to Nate's full collection) to many different variations including:

**EΝΔΟΞΟΙ ****ΚAΙ ΠEΡΙΒΛEΠTΟΙ ****TΙΝEΣ EΒΟΥΛΗΘΗΣAΝ**

**ΓEΝEΣΘAΙ ****TΗΝ EΞ AΝΘΡΩΠΩΝ AΣΦAΛEΙAΝ ****ΟΥTΩ**

**ΝΟΜΙΖΟΝTEΣ ΠEΡΙΠΟΙΗΣEΣΘAΙ ****ΩΣTE EΙ ΜEΝ AΣΦAΛΗΣ ****Ο**

**TΩΝ TΟΙΟΥTΩΝ ΒΙΟΣ AΠEΛAΒΟΝ ****TΟ TΗΣ ΦΥΣEΩΣ AΓAΘΟΝ·**

**EΙ ΔE ΜΗ AΣΦAΛΗΣ ****ΟΥΚ EΧΟΥΣΙΝ ****ΟΥ EΝEΚA EΞ AΡΧΗΣ**

**ΚATA TΟ TΗΣ ΦΥΣEΩΣ ΟΙΚEΙΟΝ ΩΡEΧΘΗΣAΝ. **

“Some men have wished to be eminent and powerful, thinking that so they would secure safety as far as men are concerned. So that if the life of such men is safe, they have attained to the nature of good; but if it is not safe, then they have failed in obtaining that for the sake of which they originally desired power according to the order of nature.” Yonge (1853)

“Some men sought to become famous and renowned, thinking that thus they would make themselves secure against their fellow-men. If, then, the life of such persons really was secure, they attained natural good; if, however, it was insecure, they have not attained the end which by nature's own promptings they originally sought.” Hicks (1910)

“Some men have sought to become famous and renowned, thinking that thus they would make themselves secure against their fellow-men. If, then, the life of such persons really was secure, they attained natural good ; if, however, it was insecure, they have not attained the end which by nature's own prompting they originally sought.” Hicks (1925)

“Some men wished to become famous and conspicuous thinking that they would thus win for themselves safety from other men. Wherefore if the life of such men is safe, they have obtained the good which nature craves; but if it is not safe, they do not possess that for which they strove at the frst by the instinct of nature.” Bailey (1926)

“Some men have chosen to become celebrities and to be in the public eye, thinking thus to achieve security from the attacks of men. Consequently, if the lives of such men are safe, they have reaped the end of Nature, but if their lives are not safe, they lack that for the sake of which at the outset they reached out by the instinct of Nature. ” DeWitt, Epicurus and His Philosophy 189 (1954)

“Some men wish to gain reputation and to be in the public eye, thinking by this means to win security from the attacks of men. Consequently, if the lives of these men are safe they have achieved the end ordained by Nature; if, on the contrary, their lives are not safe they lack that for which at the outset they reached out in obedience to an instinct of Nature." DeWitt, St. Paul and Epicurus 187 (1954)

“Some, thinking thus to make themselves safe from men, wished to become famous and renowned. They won a natural good if they made their lives secure; but if their lives were not secure, they did not have that for which, following the rule of nature, they first sought.” Geer (1964)

“Certain people wanted to become famous and admired, thinking that they would thus acquire security from other men. Consequently, if such people's life was secure, they did obtain nature's good; but if it was not secure, they are not in possession of the objective which they originally sought after on the basis of nature's affinity.” Long, The Hellenistic Philosophers 126 (1987)

“Some men wished to become esteemed and admired by everyone, thinking that in this way they would procure for themselves safety from others. Therefore, if the life of such men is safe, they have received the good that comes from nature. If it is not safe, they do not have that for which they struggled at first by natural instinct.” O'Connor (1993)

“Some men want to become famous and respected, believing that this is the way to acquire security against [other] men. Thus if the life of such men is secure, they acquire the natural good; but if it is not secure, they do not have that for the sake of which they strove from the beginning according to what is naturally congenial.” Inwood & Gerson (1994)

“Some seek fame and status, thinking that they could thereby protect themselves against other men. If their lives really are secure, then they have attained a natural good; if, however, they're insecure, they still lack what they originally sought by natural instinct.” Anderson (2004)

“Some have wished to become famous and enviable, thinking that they would in this way procure for themselves security from other human beings. In that case: if their life is secure, they have indeed enjoyed what is the good by nature; if, however, they are not safe, they still lack that naturally familiar good for the sake of which our appetites have striven from the very first stirrings of human nature and in accordance with natural principles.” Makridis (2005)

“Some people want to be well esteemed and widely admired, believing that in this way they will be safe from others; if the life of such people is secure then they have gained its natural benefit, but if not then they have not gained what they sought from the beginning in accordance with what is naturally appropriate.” Saint-Andre (2008)

“Some men have desired to gain reputation and to be well regarded, thinking in this way to gain protection from other people. If the lives of such men are secure, they have acquired a natural blessing; but if they are not, they do not possess what they originally reached for by natural instinct.” Strodach (2012)

“Some have longed to become famous and celebrated, thinking that they would thereby obtain security against other men. If the lives of such persons were secure, they attained what is naturally good; but if insecure, they did not attain the object that they were originally prompted by nature to seek.” Mensch (2018)

“Some people wanted to become famous and admired, supposing they would in this way achieve security from other people. Hence, if the life of such people is secure, they obtained their nature’s good; but if it is not secure, they do not have the goal they initially desired in the way congenial to their nature.” White (2021)

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Which of the above, or which with changes you would suggest, should be featured here in the main list? In the interest of space the poll will not include every option, so please add a comment in the thread if you would suggest a variation not listed.

Glad to have you Aaron!

Welcome AaronSF

Note: In order to minimize spam registrations, all new registrants must respond in this thread to this welcome message within 72 hours of its posting, or their account is subject to deletion. All that is required is a "Hello!" but of course we hope you will introduce yourself -- tell us a little about yourself and what prompted your interest in Epicureanism -- and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

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All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

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Welcome to the forum!

Episode 186 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available!

Welcome to Episode 187 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics. We are now in the process of a series of podcasts intended to provide a general overview of Epicurean philosophy based on the organizational structure employed by Norman DeWitt in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy."

This week we continue our discussion of Chapter 15, entitled "Extension, Submergence, and Revival."

Chapter XV - Extension, Submergence, And Revival

• The School In Alexandria
• Epicureanism In Italy
• Epicureanism In Rome
• The Reaction Against Epicureanism
• Epicureanism In The Early Empire
• Plutarch, Anti-Epicurean
• Epicureanism In The Graeco-Roman World
• Third And Fourth Centuries
• Epicureanism In the Middle Ages
• The Epicurean Revival

Editing of this week's podcast has encountered some delays I was unable to avoid, but with any luck will be out tomorrow before we record our next episode.

Thank you Don! That's a new resource to me.

Happy Birthday to Friedrich Hohenstaufen! Learn more about Friedrich Hohenstaufen and say happy birthday on Friedrich Hohenstaufen's timeline: Friedrich Hohenstaufen

That link to Aristotle's politics doesn't seem to work but might be useful for comparison. At the moment it would seem to me that something generic ("kingly office") is likely to fit best in the overall context of the discussion, if we presume that 6 and 7 are both seeming to say that safety and security are so valuable that anything that does in fact **in a particular set of circumstances** produce safety and security, at least for a time, has a sanction of nature. Seems to me that Bailey's sentiment goes too far in thinking that Epicurus could not have said that. In the overall scheme of things some degree of power for protection, being desirable, would qualify at least at times as being a natural good - even at times the level of power held by a king - which can vary tremendously from the King of a small island to the King of Persia. "I'd see 'king' as potentially a very generic term and not necessarily invoking the idea that everyone resents and wants to kill the king.

Don if you get a chance to supplement your post here that would also be helpful:

Post

RE: PD06 - Best Translation of PDO6 to Feature at EpicureanFriends.com

Greek text: Usener edition

6

ἕνεκα τοῦ θαρρεῖν ἐξ ανθρώπων ἦν κατὰ φύσιν ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας ἀγαθόν, ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε τοῦτο οἷός τʼᾖ παρασκευάζεσθαι.

• Ἕνεκα
  • ἕνεκᾰ
    • (with genitive)
      • on account of, for the sake of, because of
      • with regard to, as far as regards, as for
• τοῦ θαρρεῖν
  • θαρσέω to be of good courage, take courage; confidence, audacity
    • θαρρεῖν present active infinitive
    • C. inf. to believe confidently that, Soph.; also, to make bold or venture to do, Xen.
• ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας

…

Don

August 8, 2023 at 12:26 PM

I have never had much fix on Usener because I have never been able to read any commentary by him that may exist, but I know I don't have a good feel about Bailey's discretion. But in this case we can't pin this on Bailey, correct? I wish we had more access to Usener's general thoughts on Epicurus to see if (or how) he made similar "this can't be right" comments.

Thank you again Don for all you do.

Quote from Nate

It's text added by Arrighetti denoted with the <brackets>. I believe I have that version listed in my KD compilation.

And so Nate in this situation the text really is there, and is just read OUT by most, but does exist in the manuscript?

As a general comment - that kind of editorial thinking can easily lead to problems. Is he really so sure what was in Epicurus' mind when the text says something else? Sounds like this is one of those situations where Dewitt prefers "less emended texts."

Add that this editorial thinking comes from Bailey and I am even more suspicious of it.

Yep that's the one, and we're still batting it back and forth! Thanks Don!

It's always interesting and a little scary to read what was written three years ago by the same people who may have very different thoughts now!