Posts by Cassius

Yes, and gosh only knows that I too live in a glass house when it comes to typos and other errors! Almost any major mainstream article bringing Epicurus to people's attention is going to be a net positive, and this one surely is too.

As to paragraph 40, the first part is essentially the "action" vs "idleness" argument which with I think we are pretty well equipped to deal. It also argues that since Epicurus values bodily pleasure, and Cotta does not admit that the gods of Epicurus have real bodies, or even quasi-bodies, then the gods cannot experience the kind of pleasure that Epicurus praises. This latter argument is often met by the argument that what Epicurus really valued is "katastematic" pleasure rather than bodily pleasure, which I think is an argument that is totally off the mark.

First:

Epicurean pleasure is *not* "inaction," no matter how much some people (who essentially agree with Cicero and the Platonic argument that virtue and the mind are higher or more "noble" than the the ignoble pleasures of the body) might want to try to infer that based on the word "katastematic" or other arguments. Even mental thinking is a form of action, and the atoms of all living bodies are constantly moving. Only the living can experience pleasure of any kind, no matter how we slice up the numberless subtypes of "pleasure."

We've dealt with that a lot in the past so we should be able to present that clearly, but if anyone has ideas for illustrations or backup arguments please post.

Second:

Cotta refuses to admit that the contention that gods have quasi-bodies makes any sense, but that is the contention: the bodies of the gods are also made of atoms, but the atoms are continuously replenished indefinitely. Since the Epicurean gods do have bodies of a sort, there is no reason that the Epicurean gods cannot experience both "bodily" and "mental" types of pleasures, just as humans do.

Quote from Cicero's Cotta speaking to Velleius

To elude this, you have recourse to equilibration (for so, with your leave, I will call your Ἰσονομία), and say that as there is a sort of nature mortal, so there must also be a sort which is immortal. By the same rule, as there are men mortal, there are men immortal; and as some arise from the earth, some must arise from the water also; and as there are causes which destroy, there must likewise be causes which preserve. Be it as you say;

This would appear to refer to isonomia, and there is little reason to doubt that Cotta/Cicero is applying it in a way that Velleius/Epicurus would not approve. I suspect the intentional distortion is that of failing to distinguish the possible from the impossible.

It seems likely to me that this is referring to an aspect of infinity. In an infinite universe things that are possible are going to recur an infinite number of times. The "infinite number of times" would account for the "equal" or "equitable" number. Given that presumption, you can deduce that things that *can* happen *will* happen an infinite numbers of times. Infinite = infinite so the number of occurrences is the same.

So I would presume that it's the "things that are possible" that Cotta/Cicero is evading. I'd say that's especially true when he says "by the same rule" and goes on to list scenarios that we see on earth do not occur at all. His references, in fact, (living beings springing from the air or sea) are similar to what Lucretius talks about do *not* happen due to the regular process of nature as governed by the atoms.

So I think we can dismiss earthlings being born in the earth and water as ruled out by uniform observation of earth-bound physics. But what might we infer about what Epicurus could have thought about equitable distribution of living things from mortal to deathless?

My first thought would be that humans (intelligent living things) have the ability to control their environments so as to extend their lives. The Greeks were certainly aware of medical treatments, and it was imaginable then, and readily predictable today, that medical technology will allow more and more transplants and replacements of body parts. It is easily conceivable that even brain transplants or rejuvenations, which are as yet impossible under current technology, will be attainable in the future.

As for survival past the destruction of Earth or any particular "world" due to the natural deterioration of all bodies over time that cannot fix themselves, there's no reason to think that Epicurus was dogmatic that it would be "impossible" for living beings to live in and travel through "outer space." For example, Lucian directly wrote about travel to the moon in "The True Story," and there's no reason to think that this obvious proposition was imaginable to many others. So as we are even about to do now in regard to travel to Mars, and then further on later outside the solar system, humanity will soon become "multi-planetary" to be followed by "interstellar" and then one day beyond our galaxy. Humanity will one day (if we stay on the current path) be able to survive any local supernovas or whatevers, and as a whole will achieve a sort of "species immortality" or "species deathless." One would expect that any technological civilization that can travel interstellar will also be able to master the deterioration of the human body.

I don't think any of that would have been beyond the ancient Epicureans to imagine, and therefore since they would deem such a thing to be "possible" within the laws of physics, they would have been able to imagine living beings which can continuously replace the atomic structure of their bodies, which is essentially what we have Velleius relaying and Cicero/Cotta ridiculing. That would allow for a "distribution" of life (at each stage, in infinite numbers) all the way from quickly-expiring primitive organisms to intelligent beings who are in fact essentially "deathless." The only requirement of deathlessness is totally natural - such a being has to be able to develop the technology to replace or rejuvenate their bodies so as to make death a matter of choice rather than necessity.

So something along these lines is what I would speculate the Epicureans were theorizing:

The impossible (such as anything supernatural) will not and can never occur. On the other hand, because the universe as a whole is infinite in space and eternal in time, all things that are possible will occur an equal (infinite) number of times. Intelligent living beings which develop the ability to control their experience have the possibility of extending their lives indefinitely. Species or individuals which do so are ultimately deathless, and there are the same number of them as there are being that are mortal.

Everything in this set of possibilities would be purely natural and involve nothing supernatural whatsoever.

Welcome to Episode 251 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we have a thread to discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

Today we are continuing to review Cicero's "On the Nature of The Gods," which began with the Epicurean spokesman Velleius defending the Epicurean point of view. This week will continue into Section 39 as Cotta, the Academic Skeptic, continues to attack the Epicurean view of the nature of divinity.

For the main text we are using primarily the Yonge translation, available here at Archive.org. The text which we include in these posts is available here. We will also refer to the public domain version of the Loeb series, which contains both Latin and English, as translated by H. Rackham.

Additional versions can be found here:

• Frances Brooks 1896 translation at Online Library of Liberty
• Lacus Curtius Edition (Rackham)
• PDF Of Loeb Edition at Archive.org by Rackham
• Gutenberg.org version by CD Yonge 

A list of arguments presented will eventually be put together here.

Today's Text

XXXIX. The whole affair, Velleius, is ridiculous. You do not impose images on our eyes only, but on our minds. Such is the privilege which you have assumed of talking nonsense with impunity. But there is, you say, a transition of images flowing on in great crowds in such a way that out of many some one at least must be perceived! I should be ashamed of my incapacity to understand this if you, who assert it, could comprehend it yourselves; for how do you prove that these images are continued in uninterrupted motion? Or, if uninterrupted, still how do you prove them to be eternal? There is a constant supply, you say, of innumerable atoms. But must they, for that reason, be all eternal? To elude this, you have recourse to equilibration (for so, with your leave, I will call your Ἰσονομία), and say that as there is a sort of nature mortal, so there must also be a sort which is immortal. By the same rule, as there are men mortal, there are men immortal; and as some arise from the earth, some must arise from the water also; and as there are causes which destroy, there must likewise be causes which preserve. Be it as you say; but let those causes preserve which have existence themselves. I cannot conceive these your Gods to have any. But how does all this face of things arise from atomic corpuscles? Were there any such atoms (as there are not), they might perhaps impel one another, and be jumbled together in their motion; but they could never be able to impart form, or figure, or color, or animation, so that you by no means demonstrate the immortality of your Deity.

XL. Let us now inquire into his happiness. It is certain that without virtue there can be no happiness; but virtue consists in action: now your Deity does nothing; therefore he is void of virtue, and consequently cannot be happy. What sort of life does he lead? He has a constant supply, you say, of good things, without any intermixture of bad. What are those good things? Sensual pleasures, no doubt; for you know no delight of the mind but what arises from the body, and returns to it. I do not suppose, Velleius, that you are like some of the Epicureans, who are ashamed of those expressions of Epicurus, in which he openly avows that he has no idea of any good separate from wanton and obscene pleasures, which, without a blush, he names distinctly. What food, therefore, what drink, what variety of music or flowers, what kind of pleasures of touch, what odors, will you offer to the Gods to fill them with pleasures? The poets indeed provide them with banquets of nectar and ambrosia, and a Hebe or a Ganymede to serve up the cup. But what is it, Epicurus, that you do for them? For I do not see from whence your Deity should have those things, nor how he could use them. Therefore the nature of man is better constituted for a happy life than the nature of the Gods, because men enjoy various kinds of pleasures; but you look on all those pleasures as superficial which delight the senses only by a titillation, as Epicurus calls it. Where is to be the end of this trifling? Even Philo, who followed the Academy, could not bear to hear the soft and luscious delights of the Epicureans despised; for with his admirable memory he perfectly remembered and used to repeat many sentences of Epicurus in the very words in which they were written. He likewise used to quote many, which were more gross, from Metrodorus, the sage colleague of Epicurus, who blamed his brother Timocrates because he would not allow that everything which had any reference to a happy life was to be measured by the belly; nor has he said this once only, but often. You grant what I say, I perceive; for you know it to be true. I can produce the books, if you should deny it; but I am not now reproving you for referring all things to the standard of pleasure: that is another question. What I am now showing is, that your Gods are destitute of pleasure; and therefore, according to your own manner of reasoning, they are not happy.

Thanks for that quote. I had a mental lapse on the podcàst last time I tried to use that and couldn't remember if it was Neptune or Ceres that was referenced. Now I see why - it's *both*

Thanks for posting that KochieKoch! Joshua pointed that out to me a short while ago but I neglected to get around to posting the link. One reason I neglected to do so was that it is kind of casually edited, as with the part I highlighted in red below. But's it's generally a good article probably oriented toward readers we need to cultivate, so glad to see it.

Don’t fear the gods is an homage, in principle, to the adage, “He is a god fearing man.” Instead, if you believe in god, choose to believe in a benevolent one. And what’s interesting is that Epicurus was actually atheist, but empathetically accounts for believers, encouraging a more optimistic view. In Epictetus’s eyes, there is no use in having religion if it becomes a detriment to your life.

Quote from Don

Putting ourselves in Epicurus' headspace and social context in this topic is nigh impossible given our current understanding of the universe.

Not to be argumentative and just for the record, in case lurkers see this and wonder if no one responds, I'll state that I respectfully very much disagree with this statement. The regulars here know that we've gone through this question many times before, and there is respectful disagreement among our regulars on this point, but the lurkers won't so that's why I note it.

Quote from TauPhi

It's morally acceptable to kill a mosquito but killing a cat is morally unacceptable. It was morally acceptable for Epicurus to own slaves but it's morally unacceptable for us. I'm giving these examples to show that human morality is liquid, ever changing set of societal rules arbitrary agreed upon by majority of people at any given time.

I think these are good points. In an Epicurean context where virtue (morality) is keyed to the production of pleasure rather than anything absolute, I suspect you're right to think that "morally incorruptible" wouldn't do anything more than point the finger back to the ultimate questions such as:

Can they sustain their lives of pleasure indefinitely, and is there any "natural law" reason that would prevent them from doing so?

We observe here on earth that all things that come together ultimately are broken apart, but I see no reason why that must translate into a law of nature that cannot be - through natural means - indefinitely postponed in time. Certainly I don't know how to do that myself, and I doubt it will be discovered in my lifetime, but I see no reason to postulate that it will always remain technologically out of reach.

The earth and sun and moon etc don't have the intelligence to alter the facts of nature that were started when they first came into being, but can we say for sure that intelligent beings can't develop to the point of doing so? I would say that the odds of that happening over infinite space and infinite time are actually pretty good, and I'm intentionally understating what the odds probably are in reality.

Quote from Cyrano

My entire page was too large.

This is actually a very common problem and it often traps me. The software does a good job of adapting to different screen sizes, but I think the designers generally work from good-sized screens, and if you don't know what to look for, you might never realize that there is something lurking just off the visible edge of the screen.

Quote from Don

The gods would have no more need of infinite lives than a mortal would,

Just to pick a random comment out to bounce off of ---

They would have no more need for infinite time in order to enjoy "complete pleasure" or "pure pleasure," but they would be able to do so for "longer," which would in itself be desirable, just like it is desirable for us to live pleasurable lives longer. We aren't missing anything by not living on, but that doesn't mean that living on longer is not desirable. That's the common sense way we live our lives - we want to continue living so long as the expectation of net pleasure can be achieved, and I don't see why that consideration would not apply to "the gods" or any other living thing.

And as for the "necessity" of all things eventually breaking apart, even our world, it seems to me that the texts are saying that this is a "necessity" only because the blows from the outside eventually overwhelm the structure of the living thing. Seems to me there is no reason to foreclose the possibility, and indeed I think it's likely, that ways can be found to continue to replace the lost / destroyed structure indefinitely. If the "world" is in danger of collapsing, then rational beings would leave the collapsing one and go to one that is not collapsing.

I know some of us are shying away from these conclusions, but I don't think that Epicurus would have shied away from them any more than from his other radical conclusions. This is a subject we need to examine much more closely but I see no supernatural force or "necessity" that any particular object must be limited to a set and particular life span.

The problem with "immortality" is that we don't see how it can be achieved naturally, but then we couldn't for a long time see how men could fly or go to Mars. I doubt there is a conceptual difference between going further and further out in space and extending life spans longer and longer. The issue is simply finding ways to replace the structure, like making sure that there is an endless supply of water and channeling it to continue flowing over the waterfall.

Welcome to the forum. Here are a few initial comments:

Q1 - Considering the materialist and empiricist characteristic of Epicureanism, how did Epicurus manage to arrive at the certainty that "nothing can be created from nothing". Indeed, his argument makes sense, but has this been empirically observed to be raised as a universal and indubitable certainty?

A1 - The short answer would be combine both observation and logic. First he trusted his observations that nothing that he experienced, or that reliably reported to him, established that anything ever comes from totally nothing. He also added a series of deductive questions and answers about how things would be different if things DID come from nothing, and likewise observe that those things do not happen. The longest list of these is in Book 1 of Lucretius, with some being included in the Letter to Herodotus. I understand that you are using a translator so "universal and indubitable certainty" may be overly broad, but it's also true that Epicurus used a 'reasonable' standard of proof and did not accept logical absolutes as required for holding something confidently to be true.

Q2 - Considering the argument that all things need a cause in order to exist, this opens up an opportunity for the existence of a creator, or creators. How did Epicurus, empirically or rationally, come to the conclusion that their interference in our lives is unlikely? How did he come to the conclusion that the gods he mentions in the letter to Menoeceus are blessed and only relate to their fellow men?

Your questions of course touch on why Epicurus was very different from the Stoics, and why the Stoics denounced Epicurus, because Epicurus rejected all contents that there is anything above or outside nature, or that nature was created by supernatural gods, and at root Stoicism is a "supernatural-based" outlook on nature and how to live.

A2 I don't think that Epicurus accepted that "all things need a cause in order to exist." There is no reason to accept the possibility that the particles have not existed eternally, and there are sound logical reasons for believing the opposite, again as listed in Book 1 of Lucretius and the Letter to Herodotus.

As to the interference of the gods, Epicurus held that any gods that exist would logically be completely happy and deathless in themselves, and they would accordingly have no reason to be interested in making trouble for enemies or rewarding friends, because making trouble or rewarding friends is a characteristic of beings who would not be complete within themselves.

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We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Also - Joshua's reading from Aristotle on the Soul come from the source linked below:

The Internet Classics Archive | On the Soul by Aristotle

One of the subjects discussed in the latter part of this episode is whether Epicurus' statement that gods are living beings blessed and imperishable is a conclusion of the mind, or somehow a fact embodied in something engraved on men's minds, as some commentators tend to apply.

I think most of us here at Epicureanfriends take the position that ALL of the data provided by the faculties - including the faculty of anticipations - is PRE-rational and does not contain it's own conclusory "statement of fact."

So related to that topic I've started a separate thread, to be continued beyond the scope of this episode, entitled:

Thread

Clear But Not Convincing Evidence

In the context of a portion of Lucretius Today Episode 250 I want to start this thread to focus on the possibilty that significant parts of the use of Epicurean prolepsis, including discussion of "gods," needs to be evaluated with the understand that evidence can be "clear" but not "convincing.

For example, in evaluating: "For gods there are, since the knowledge of them is by clear vision." (Bailey) But does "knowledge of them by clear vision" indicate that everything which is alleged by some…

Cassius

October 14, 2024 at 2:49 PM

In the context of a portion of Lucretius Today Episode 250 I want to start this thread to focus on the possibilty that significant parts of the use of Epicurean prolepsis, including discussion of "gods," needs to be evaluated with the understand that evidence can be "clear" but not "convincing.

For example, in evaluating: "For gods there are, since the knowledge of them is by clear vision." (Bailey) But does "knowledge of them by clear vision" indicate that everything which is alleged by some people to be clear to them is true? Epicurus may say that god being "immortal and blessed [is part of a] common idea of a god is engraved on men’s minds," but does that mean that "ideas" in the form of fully-formed conclusions of fact are "engraved upon men's mind?" What about the false ideas of others about gods rewarding their friends and punishing their enemies? Were those false ideas just invented from whole cloth, or is it possible to that these false opinions were developed as a result of defective processing of certain other prolepses - prolepses which should have been rejected as part of the overall reasoning process?

This is something we discuss in Episode 150 so I want to post this to begin to accumulate discussion of how it is possible that evidence can be considered "clear" and yet not worthy of belief. There are many more that can be found, but the following points come up immediately from a GOOGLE Ai search based primarily on theories of evidence in American law. By no means is this discussion determinative of anything, but I think it's good food for thought:

1. An example of evidence that is clear but not convincing could be a single, isolated eyewitness account of a significant event, especially if the witness has a history of unreliable testimony or if their account lacks substantial supporting details, leaving room for doubt about the accuracy of their observation; even though the witness clearly states what they saw, the lack of corroborating evidence might not be enough to fully convince a decision-maker.
   Here are a few more examples:
   1. A single, ambiguous text message: If someone is accused of threatening behavior based on a single text that could be interpreted in multiple ways, the text itself might be clear but not convincing enough to prove a threat without further context or supporting evidence.
   2. A circumstantial piece of evidence without a direct connection: Finding a suspect's fingerprints at a crime scene could be clear evidence of their presence, but if there's no other evidence linking them to the crime, it might not be convincing enough to prove guilt.
   3. Hearsay testimony: Even if a witness clearly states what they heard someone else say, this testimony might be considered clear but not convincing because it is not directly observed evidence and could be subject to misinterpretation or distortion.
2. Key points to remember:
   1. Lack of corroboration: Clear evidence often needs supporting details or other pieces of evidence to be considered convincing.
   2. Potential for bias: Even if evidence is clear, it might not be convincing if there is a strong suspicion of bias from the source.
   3. Context matters: The same piece of evidence could be considered clear but not convincing depending on the situation and the standard of proof required.
      

Lucretius Today Episode 249 is now available: "The Relationship of "Images" To All Human Thought - Not Just To "The Gods."

For the Latin scholars, who can opine on which of the three is most authentic or appropriate, I suppose this is our sestercentennial / semiquincentennial / bisesquicentennial episode!

The United States Semiquincentennial,^[a] also called the Bisesquincentennial, the Sestercentennial or the Quarter Millennial, will be the 250th anniversary of the 1776 United States Declaration of Independence. Festivities will be scheduled to mark various events leading up to the anniversary on July 4, 2026.

United States Semiquincentennial - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also: 250 years. Sestercentennial. To express 2+1⁄2 in Latin it would be expressed as "half-three". The term relates to being halfway [from the second] to the third integer. In Latin this is "Sestertius", which is a contraction of semis (halfway) tertius (third)—hence Sestercentennial.

Patrikos unfortunately there is neither audio or video of that available. We opted not to record it so as to let the conversation flow as freely as possible. Thanks for asking though - I am hoping that we can do more with Emily Austin in the future.

Additional References from Aetius / Placata:

§25 Epicurus (says that) the gods are human in form, and are all observable by reason (only) because of the fine particles of which the nature of their images consists. The same (philosopher says there are) four other classes of natures that are indestructible: the indivisibles, the void, the infinite, and the similarities; these (natures) are called homoiomereiai (‘having similar parts’) and elements. (P9,S24)

4.8 On Sensation and Sense-Objects (P,S)

§2 Epicurus: ‘sense/sensation is the (bodily) part which is the faculty, and the sensory recognition which is the activity’; so it is spoken of by him in two ways: sense as the faculty, sensory recognition as the activity. (P2,S2)

...
§10 Leucippus Democritus Epicurus (say) that sensation and thought arise from images that approach from outside, for neither of these can occur to anyone without the image falling upon him. (P4,S13)

4.13 On Vision, How We See (P,S)
§1 Leucippus Democritus Epicurus believe that the visual sensation is the result of the penetration of images. (P1,S1)

4.14 On Reflections in Mirrors (P,S)
§1 Empedocles (says they come about) by the effluences that come together on the surface of the mirror and are compacted by the fiery stuff discharged from the mirror, which transports across with itself the air lying before it towards which the streams travel. (P1,S1)
§2 Leucippus Democritus Epicurus (say) the reflections in mirrors come about through the manifestations of the images, which move away from us but come to be on the mirror which sends them back. (P2,S2)

5.2 How Dreams Occur (P)
§1 Democritus (says that) dreams occur through the manifestations of eidola (images). (P1)

Lucretius Today Episode 249 is now available: "Are the Epicurean Gods Totally Inactive, And Are We To Emulate Them By Laziness?"