Posts by Cassius

Today I saw someone at Reddit post that the video I am going to reference here is "A Great Introduction to Epicurus' Four Part Cure For Happiness." I know in the past I have seen this and I may have posted about it earlier, but it bears repeating how off base some (not all, but a significant part!) of this video is:

As a first comment I would ask "Why can't this person actually find a picture of Epicurus rather than use a false drawing of a bald Epicurus that is totally unlike what the ancients used?"

Then I would point out that never does Epicurus himself ever state that these four short statements are his "capital doctrines:" There is *one* occurrence of a formulation similar to this, in a Herculaneum scroll, and no other ancient source contains this formulation. Yes it's arguable that the actual doctrines can be construed to say something similar, but they say much more, with much different connotation.

But this next clip is the real reason I made this post:

This is the real heart of the problem. This slide and the audio overlay state that these are the two kinds of pleasure that Epicurus promoted, and this is simply not correct.

The true division of Pleasure into two kinds that characterizes the heart of Epicruean ethics is:

(1) Agreeable stimulation (for which sweet is a fine additional word if you want to use it to make things clear)

(2) All other awareness in life which is not painful.

This second type is NOT limited to a "tranquil, satisfied, self-sufficient, and self-assured stated." All of those adjectives are fine, as they are *parts* of pleasure, but the implication of this formulation is that "tranquility," "satisfaction," "self-sufficiency," and "self-assurance" (which I will now refer to as "TSSS") are somehow the *only* types of experience other than agreeable stimulation that are counted as within pleasure.

Even worse is to state or imply that this second category of TSSS describe a "higher" or "true" type of pleasure, for which agreeable stimulation is only a tool for achieving TSSS, and which can be dispensed when this TSSS is achieved (as if it can be achieved and maintained without the agreeable stimulation, which it can't, but that's an argument for later).

Once you read past these presentations of the "tetrapharmakon" into Epicurus' own letters, and into Diogenes Laertius, and into Cicero's summaries, you see that the key to the real picture is that Epicurus held there to be only two kind of feelings, pleasure and pain, and that every experience which is not painful should be considered as pleasure, and vice versa. Citations for this are here.

There is much more to say about this video, but I have circled in this next clip one particularly irritating way in which this viewpoint leads people astray:

Knowing that there is a limit to suffering definitely DOES remove fear of being dead, and other fears as well, but it does not removed "Longing for more life." The rest of Epicurean philosophy (which is butchered in this video by the restrictive definition of pleasure) does indeed remove the longing for an *unlimited* life span, because "PD19. Infinite time contains no greater pleasure than limited time, if one measures, by reason, the limits of pleasure."

But Epicurean philosophy not only does not teach that there is no need to wish for "more" life, it teaches that life is desirable, because life is absolutely necessary for the experience of pleasure. Life is so desirable, and so important, that every aspect of life which is not specifically painful is worthy to be considered pleasurable.

One of the worst distortions of Epicurus that comes from Stoic and Buddhist eclecticism is that there is somehow no need to be concerned about staying alive, because you're part of the universal divine fire and should be happy to return to it if you're a Stoic, or because life is suffering and you should be happy to escape it if you're a Buddhist.

There are many people who are vulnerable to the idea that their lives are unimportant and that they should not do everything they can to lead the best life possible while they are alive. That's a point I think we need to hit home as frequently and persuasively as possible.

Time for a status update to see if anyone is having any issues or if there are things which need improvement:

1. Anyone have any problems to report in their use of the forum?
2. Any issues on desktop or mobile sizes?
3. Any issues with the themes?
4. Any features you would like to see added?
5. Any other general comments or suggestions?

I have to say that I think things are operating pretty smoothly at the moment, and I am not aware of any major issues. Seems like for me sometimes the notifications don't take me to the most recent new post, a problem that was reported earlier and may not yet be fully resolved. But generally things seem to be operating smoothly.

Can't promise to be able to address all suggestions immediately, but can't even consider them if we don't know what they are. So please feel free to let us know if there are any issues and we will see what we can do to address them over time.

Thanks for your participation at EpicureanFriends.com!

Hello Golbach ! We will provide the link tomorrow as we get closer to the time for the meeting. In the meantime can you introduce yourself in our welcome thread?

Thread

Welcome Golbach!

Welcome Golbach !

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This forum is…

Cassius

May 5, 2024 at 9:37 AM

Welcome Golbach !

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 72 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Wow that is an incredibly impressive story Julia.

Next to that any response is going to seem inadequate, but I do want to repeat what I think is the heart of Epicurean philosophy - that all this talk of absolute virtue and Platonic ideals and rewards after death is just a pipe dream. Your own life is the most valuable thing you have, and that it is short and you have to make the best of it, and that finding the way to make the best of it is the most important thing anyone can do. It sounds like you're making great progress, and no matter how many detours along the way it sounds like that when you get to the end (which is hopefully very far away) you'll be able to say that you too have lived well. That's all anyone can do, and it sounds like you've done more self-reflection about your situation than most. You can be proud no matter what else happens that you took charge of your life and you didn't give in to the kind of wishful thinking about your situation to which so many people seem to surrender.

Quote from Don

Wow! There is so much wrong in that chart!

And the commentary that he spoke while it was on the screen was even worse!

To give him credit, he started out the video saying that most of what he says in his discussions of Epicurus is negative, so I wouldn't look to a devoted Stoic for a fair presentation. When I reviewed it I was driving and listening to the audio so I may have missed some subtleties in the graphics, but it very much reminded me of many of the positions Cicero took while arguing against Torquatus.

As we get into Velleius' opening in the episode we record tomorrow, I plan to comment on this Stoic-based chart which, thanks to a new participant, I found today. Since we've so recently gone over "Virtue" and "Pleasure" in "On Ends," we will probably mention those too, but I especially want to focus on what this chart has to say (in my view, inadequately) about The Gods, Superstition, and Divination.

Here is our current collection of Nietzsche quotes on Epicurus relating to Stoicism, including the "fraud of words" quote:

Post

Collection of Nietzsche Quotes Relevant To Epicurean Philosophy

The collection at NewEpicurean.com is here.

I will work on expanding the list at the EpicureanFriends Wiki here.

To carry forward the point of the significance of Nietzsche just a little, here i think is the root of N's problem with Epicurus, in Antichrist Section 30:

--------------------------

"The instinctive hatred of reality: the consequence of an extreme susceptibility to pain and irritation—so great that merely to be "touched" becomes unendurable, for every sensation is too profound.

The…

Cassius

March 21, 2019 at 8:57 AM

Beyond Good And Evil

(Gutenberg edition, translated by Helen Zimmern ) Chapter 1, section 9

You desire to LIVE “according to Nature”? Oh, you noble Stoics, what fraud of words! Imagine to yourselves a being like Nature, boundlessly extravagant, boundlessly indifferent, without purpose or consideration, without pity or justice, at once fruitful and barren and uncertain: imagine to yourselves INDIFFERENCE as a power—how COULD you live in accordance with such indifference? To live—is not that just endeavouring to be otherwise than this Nature? Is not living valuing, preferring, being unjust, being limited, endeavouring to be different? And granted that your imperative, “living according to Nature,” means actually the same as “living according to life”—how could you do DIFFERENTLY? Why should you make a principle out of what you yourselves are, and must be? In reality, however, it is quite otherwise with you: while you pretend to read with rapture the canon of your law in Nature, you want something quite the contrary, you extraordinary stage-players and self-deluders! In your pride you wish to dictate your morals and ideals to Nature, to Nature herself, and to incorporate them therein; you insist that it shall be Nature “according to the Stoa,” and would like everything to be made after your own image, as a vast, eternal glorification and generalism of Stoicism! With all your love for truth, you have forced yourselves so long, so persistently, and with such hypnotic rigidity to see Nature FALSELY, that is to say, Stoically, that you are no longer able to see it otherwise—and to crown all, some unfathomable superciliousness gives you the Bedlamite hope that BECAUSE you are able to tyrannize over yourselves—Stoicism is self-tyranny—Nature will also allow herself to be tyrannized over: is not the Stoic a PART of Nature?… But this is an old and everlasting story: what happened in old times with the Stoics still happens today, as soon as ever a philosophy begins to believe in itself. It always creates the world in its own image; it cannot do otherwise; philosophy is this tyrannical impulse itself, the most spiritual Will to Power, the will to “creation of the world,” the will to the causa prima.

Beyond Good And Evil, (Gutenberg edition, translated by Helen Zimmern) Chapter 5, section 188

In contrast to laisser-aller, every system of morals is a sort of tyranny against “nature” and also against “reason”, that is, however, no objection, unless one should again decree by some system of morals, that all kinds of tyranny and unreasonableness are unlawful What is essential and invaluable in every system of morals, is that it is a long constraint. In order to understand Stoicism, or Port Royal, or Puritanism, one should remember the constraint under which every language has attained to strength and freedom—the metrical constraint, the tyranny of rhyme and rhythm.

Beyond Good And Evil, (Gutenberg edition, translated by Helen Zimmern) Chapter 5, section 198

All the systems of morals which address themselves with a view to their “happiness,” as it is called—what else are they but suggestions for behaviour adapted to the degree of DANGER from themselves in which the individuals live; recipes for their passions, their good and bad propensities, insofar as such have the Will to Power and would like to play the master; small and great expediencies and elaborations, permeated with the musty odour of old family medicines and old-wife wisdom; all of them grotesque and absurd in their form—because they address themselves to “all,” because they generalize where generalization is not authorized; all of them speaking unconditionally, and taking themselves unconditionally; all of them flavoured not merely with one grain of salt, but rather endurable only, and sometimes even seductive, when they are over-spiced and begin to smell dangerously, especially of “the other world.” That is all of little value when estimated intellectually, and is far from being “science,” much less “wisdom”; but, repeated once more, and three times repeated, it is expediency, expediency, expediency, mixed with stupidity, stupidity, stupidity—whether it be the indifference and statuesque coldness towards the heated folly of the emotions, which the Stoics advised and fostered; or the no-more-laughing and no-more-weeping of Spinoza, the destruction of the emotions by their analysis and vivisection, which he recommended so naively; or the lowering of the emotions to an innocent mean at which they may be satisfied, the Aristotelianism of morals; or even morality as the enjoyment of the emotions in a voluntary attenuation and spiritualization by the symbolism of art, perhaps as music, or as love of God, and of mankind for God’s sake—for in religion the passions are once more enfranchised, provided that…; or, finally, even the complaisant and wanton surrender to the emotions, as has been taught by Hafis and Goethe, the bold letting-go of the reins, the spiritual and corporeal licentia morum in the exceptional cases of wise old codgers and drunkards, with whom it “no longer has much danger.”—This also for the chapter: “Morals as Timidity.”

Julia -

Thank you for posting that Vox Stoica link. I had not heard that before and am glad I am now aware of it.

I find it to be very inaccurate as to Epicurus but very typical of Stoic interpretations that center on fear and on tranquility, as if Epicurus were not concerned with "pleasure" at all. It starts off on the wrong foot, talking as if Epicurus did not value *both* stimulating and non-stimulative pleasure, and gets worse from there.

If you have heard our Lucretius Today podcasts over the past year you have likely head us discuss these issues, and it is for many reasons that I share Nietzsche's contempt (i regret so strong a word but it is accurate) for Stoicism. The quote to which you linked does not emphasize it nearly as well as the one in which Nietzsche calls Stoicism a "fraud of words."

The true Stoics of the ancient world generally held Epicurus in contempt, and I give them credit for understanding the depth of the issues involved, rather than glossing over important differences and looking for an eclectic blend as does this commentator.

These are fascinating issues and very worth discussing so thank you for linking to that. I will likely start another thread on that episode at some point and I am tempted to record a point by point response to it.

If I thought that this commentator's interpretation of Epicurus were correct, I would have nothing to do with Epicurus, nor would I recommend Epicurus to you or anyone else! To be clear, I think he is flat wrong in asserting that Epicurean philosophy is all about running from pain, and I am happy to defend Epicurus from the false praise of someone who can apparently see him only through Stoic eyes.

Yes indeed that is an excellent first post and you are very welcome here! In my own case, I particularly welcome those who indicate an interest in Nietzsche, because I think Nietzsche was "one of us" in many ways with his appreciation of Epicurus. I am not so bold as to say that we are smarter than Nietzsche in avoiding the "passivist" interpretations of Epicurus that Nietzsche found impossible to accept, but in my own mind I just put Nietzsche's criticisms down to his own peculiarities. A proper interpretation of Epicurus is entirely consistent with, and indeed the best way to, lead a strong and confident life, or paraphrasing your words, it's the best path "to fortify ... body and mind in preparation for [every] attempt at victory in the battle that [is] life."

Many of us have similar stories of detouring through Stoicism, and ultimately finding it empty, and I'd encourage you to share yours here as you see fit. The more times we see and hear the pattern the easier it becomes to recognize the problems and see how Epicurus resolves those errors.

I am going to tag in this file our friend Elli in Greece, who posts frequently on the Epicurean Philosophy Facebook group, as she also shares similar interests.

It would be helpful to know too - did you find us via Google or Facebook or searching podcasts, or how?

Welcome Julia !

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 72 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Wow! I have never seen them before - but it does touch on the issue!

Yes to me the consideration of mathematical symbolism helps make the issues involved in debating nominalism and reductionism clear.

Two things plus two things equals four things, because we define it that way. But what is a "thing"? In the end the usefulness of such symbolic equations becomes a matter of identifying what "thing" means. You can reduce everything over and over into a series of definitions as you try to assign meaning to your symbols, but in the end you have to remember that definition games can be circular and be a fool's errand, and the only way to prevent that is to tie things ultimately to observations of the facts observed by senses, anticipations, and feelings.

Surely there are practical "rules" or "conventions" about how to define things, based on experience, that will generally work to make the process more accurate. But in the end the definition game had better tie back to observations from the senses (or anticipations or feelings) or else the entire game collapses into circular abstractions.

It appears to me that Epicurus was waving major red flags about definition games, and he would have done the same with implying that all knowledge is a matter of definitions in the mind that are infinitely malleable. I would see the same issue with "rules of construction" such as we apply in the law, or as we deal with in deciding what is good logic vs what is a logical fallacy. Ultimately justice is not a matter of robotically following rules, nor is identifying truth a matter of definitions.

You have to eventually come to conclusions in order to survive, and it's fair to work as hard as you can to describe the best process of reasoning so that you can reproduce that process over and over.

But the cardinal and overriding rule seems likely to be that in the end rules cannot be considered to override the facts of the sensations ,anticipations, and feelings in ultimately analyzing any situation.

And the temptation to try to develop "rules" to be considered universal and infallible seems to be at least as great a hazard as the temptation to deny the usefulness of any and all rules. Epicurus certainly had his own rules of thought, such as PD23 and PD24, but they were always couched in terms of the ultimate rule being that the sensations, anticipations, and feelings are the ultimate abiter. In any situation of conflict between pure rules vs pure evidence (from the sensations, anticipations, and feelings, not including "rules of symbolic logic,") the ultimate arbiter of what we should acknowledge to be true is not the result of rules, but the result of facts established by the sensations, anticipations, and feelings.

In this episode let's talk about:

• - The three main schools of thought on the gods:
  • - Stoics (Lucilius Balbus) (split the honorable from the profitable and go with the honorable)
  • - Epicureans (Velleius) (go with the profitable)
  • - Academics (Gaius Cotta) (they're not sure) Cicero is also in this category
  • - Peripatetics would have been represented by Marcus Piso, but he is not present. (combine the honorable with the profitable)
  • - The scene then of the dispute will be home of Gaius Aurelius Cotta, who was talking with Senator Gaius Velleius, the Epicurean. Quintus Lucillius Balbus was also there, taking the Stoic side. Cicero says that if Marcus Piso were present, no school would lack an advocate. It appears that Piso would have represented the Peripatetics, because Cotta says that Antiochus held that the Peripatetics did not differ from the Stoics in substance but only in words. Cotta says this is actually a significant difference, but says more on that later.
• - The role of confidence in Epicurean philosophy - "After this, Velleius, with the confidence peculiar to his sect, dreading nothing so much as to seem to doubt of anything, began as if he had just then descended from the council of the Gods, and Epicurus’s intervals of worlds."
• - Velleius says do not attend to:
  • - idle and imaginary tales;
  • - nor to the operator and builder of the World, the God of Plato’s Timæus;
  • - nor to the old prophetic dame, the Πρόνοια of the Stoics, which the Latins call
    • Providence;
  • - nor to that round, that burning, revolving deity, the World, endowed with sense and understanding; the prodigies and wonders, not of inquisitive philosophers, but of dreamers!
• - First the attack on Plato's gods:
  • - What was his evidence? "For with what eyes of the mind was your Plato able to see that workhouse of such stupendous toil, in which he makes the world to be modeled and built by God?
  • - Plato cannot explain how god created the universe: "What materials, what tools, what bars, what machines, what servants, were employed in so vast a work? How could the air, fire, water, and earth pay obedience and submit to the will of the architect? From whence arose those five forms, of which the rest were composed, so aptly contributing to frame the mind and produce the senses? It is tedious to go through all, as they are of such a sort that they look
    • more like things to be desired than to be discovered. (wishful thinking)
  • - How can Plato's god have created an eternal world? "But, what is more remarkable, he gives us a world which has been not only created, but, if I may so say, in a manner formed with hands, and yet he says it is eternal. Do you conceive him to have the least skill in natural philosophy <ins> who is capable of thinking anything to be everlasting that had a beginning?</ins> For what can possibly ever have been put together which cannot be dissolved again? Or what is there that had a beginning which will not have an end?
• - Attack on the Stoic god:
  • - If your Providence, Lucilius Balbus, is the same as Plato’s God, I ask you, as before, who were the assistants, what were the engines, what was the plan and preparation of the whole work? If it is not the same, then why did she make the world mortal, and not everlasting, like Plato’s God?
• - Attack on Both Stoics and Academics:
  • - It makes no sense that the god woke up one day and created the world after doing something else for an eternity beforehand:
    • - But I would demand of you both, why these world-builders started up so suddenly, and lay dormant for so many ages? For we are not to conclude that, if there was no world, there were therefore no ages. I do not now speak of such ages as are finished by a certain number of days and nights in annual courses; for I acknowledge that those could not be without the revolution of the world; but there was a certain eternity from infinite time, not measured by any circumscription of seasons; but how that was in space we cannot understand, because we cannot possibly have even the slightest idea of time before time was.
  • - Why were the gods idle for so long?
    • - desire, therefore, to know, Balbus, why this Providence of yours was idle for such an immense space of time? Did she avoid labor? But that could have no effect on the Deity; nor could there be any labor, since all nature, air, fire, earth, and water would obey the divine essence. What was it that incited the Deity to act the part of an ædile, to illuminate and
      • decorate the world? If it was in order that God might be the better accommodated in his habitation, then he must have been dwelling an infinite length of time before in darkness as in a dungeon. But do we imagine that he was afterward delighted with that variety with which we see the heaven and earth adorned? What entertainment could that be to the Deity? If it was any, he would not have been without it so long.

  • - Who benefited from the creation? If for the wise, that's a small number. For fools? why?

    • - Or were these things made, as you almost assert, by God for the sake of men? Was it for the wise? If so, then this great design was adopted for the sake of a very small number. Or for the sake of fools? First of all, there was no reason why God should consult the advantage of the wicked; and, further, what could be his object in doing so, since all fools are, without doubt, the most miserable of men, chiefly because they are fools? For what can we pronounce more deplorable than folly? Besides, there are many inconveniences in life which the wise can learn to think lightly of by dwelling rather on the advantages which they receive; but which fools are unable to avoid when they are coming, or to bear when they are come.

    
    

Welcome

to Episode 227 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

We are now discussing the Epicurean sections of Cicero's "On the Nature of The Gods," and this week we introduce the Epicurean spokesman Velleius, beginning in Section 8

For the main text we are using primarily the Yonge translation, available here. The text which we include in these posts is the Yonge version, the full version of which is here at Epicureanfriends. We will also refer to the public domain version of the Loeb series, which contains both Latin and English, as translated by H. Rackham.

Additional versions can be found here:

• Frances Brooks 1896 translation at Online Library of Liberty
• Lacus Curtius Edition (Rackham)
• PDF Of Loeb Edition at Archive.org by Rackham
• Gutenberg.org version by CD Yonge 

Today's Text

VII. Indeed, says I, I think I am come very seasonably, as you say; for here are three chiefs of three principal sects met together. If M. Piso was present, no sect of philosophy that is in any esteem would want an advocate. If Antiochus’s book, replies Cotta, which he lately sent to Balbus, says true, you have no occasion to wish for your friend Piso; for Antiochus is of the opinion that the Stoics do not differ from the Peripatetics in fact, though they do in words; and I should be glad to know what you think of that book, Balbus.

"I?" says he. I wonder that Antiochus, a man of the clearest apprehension, should not see what a vast difference there is between the Stoics, who distinguish the honest and the profitable, not only in name, but absolutely in kind, and the Peripatetics, who blend the honest with the profitable in such a manner that they differ only in degrees and proportion, and not in kind. This is not a little difference in words, but a great one in things; but of this hereafter. Now, if you think fit, let us return to what we began with.

With all my heart, says Cotta. But that this visitor (looking at me), who is just come in, may not be ignorant of what we are upon, I will inform him that we were discoursing on the nature of the Gods; concerning which, as it is a subject that always appeared very obscure to me, I prevailed on Velleius to give us the sentiments of Epicurus. Therefore, continues he, if it is not troublesome, Velleius, repeat what you have already stated to us. I will, says he, though this new-comer will be no advocate for me, but for you; for you have both, adds he, with a smile, learned from the same Philo to be certain of nothing. What we have learned from him, replied I, Cotta will discover; but I would not have you think I am come as an assistant to him, but as an auditor, with an impartial and unbiased mind, and not bound by any obligation to defend any particular principle, whether I like or dislike it.

VIII. After this, Velleius, with the confidence peculiar to his sect, dreading nothing so much as to seem to doubt of anything, began as if he had just then descended from the council of the Gods, and Epicurus’s intervals of worlds. Do not attend, says he, to these idle and imaginary tales; nor to the operator and builder of the World, the God of Plato’s Timæus; nor to the old prophetic dame, the Πρόνοια of the Stoics, which the Latins call Providence; nor to that round, that burning, revolving deity, the World, endowed with sense and understanding; the prodigies and wonders, not of inquisitive philosophers, but of dreamers!

For with what eyes of the mind was your Plato able to see that workhouse of such stupendous toil, in which he makes the world to be modeled and built by God? What materials, what tools, what bars, what machines, what servants, were employed in so vast a work? How could the air, fire, water, and earth pay obedience and submit to the will of the architect? From whence arose those five forms, of which the rest were composed, so aptly contributing to frame the mind and produce the senses? It is tedious to go through all, as they are of such a sort that they look more like things to be desired than to be discovered.

But, what is more remarkable, he gives us a world which has been not only created, but, if I may so say, in a manner formed with hands, and yet he says it is eternal. Do you conceive him to have the least skill in natural philosophy who is capable of thinking anything to be everlasting that had a beginning? For what can possibly ever have been put together which cannot be dissolved again? Or what is there that had a beginning which will not have an end? If your Providence, Lucilius, is the same as Plato’s God, I ask you, as before, who were the assistants, what were the engines, what was the plan and preparation of the whole work? If it is not the same, then why did she make the world mortal, and not everlasting, like Plato’s God?

IX. But I would demand of you both, why these world-builders started up so suddenly, and lay dormant for so many ages? For we are not to conclude that, if there was no world, there were therefore no ages. I do not now speak of such ages as are finished by a certain number of days and nights in annual courses; for I acknowledge that those could not be without the revolution of the world; but there was a certain eternity from infinite time, not measured by any circumscription of seasons; but how that was in space we cannot understand, because we cannot possibly have even the slightest idea of time before time was. I desire, therefore, to know, Balbus, why this Providence of yours was idle for such an immense space of time? Did she avoid labor? But that could have no effect on the Deity; nor could there be any labor, since all nature, air, fire, earth, and water would obey the divine essence. What was it that incited the Deity to act the part of an ædile, to illuminate and decorate the world? If it was in order that God might be the better accommodated in his habitation, then he must have been dwelling an infinite length of time before in darkness as in a dungeon. But do we imagine that he was afterward delighted with that variety with which we see the heaven and earth adorned? What entertainment could that be to the Deity? If it was any, he would not have been without it so long.

Or were these things made, as you almost assert, by God for the sake of men? Was it for the wise? If so, then this great design was adopted for the sake of a very small number. Or for the sake of fools? First of all, there was no reason why God should consult the advantage of the wicked; and, further, what could be his object in doing so, since all fools are, without doubt, the most miserable of men, chiefly because they are fools? For what can we pronounce more deplorable than folly? Besides, there are many inconveniences in life which the wise can learn to think lightly of by dwelling rather on the advantages which they receive; but which fools are unable to avoid when they are coming, or to bear when they are come.

As a reminder, here is the issue as Wikipedia states it:

In metaphysics, nominalism is the view that universals and abstract objects do not actually exist other than being merely names or labels.^[1][2] There are at least two main versions of nominalism. One version denies the existence of universals – things that can be instantiated or exemplified by many particular things (e.g., strength, humanity). The other version specifically denies the existence of abstract objects – objects that do not exist in space and time.^[3]

William of Ockham

Most nominalists have held that only physical particulars in space and time are real, and that universals exist only post res, that is, subsequent to particular things.^[4] However, some versions of nominalism hold that some particulars are abstract entities (e.g., numbers), while others are concrete entities – entities that do exist in space and time (e.g., pillars, snakes, and bananas).

Nominalism is primarily a position on the problem of universals. It is opposed to realist philosophies, such as Platonic realism, which assert that universals do exist over and above particulars, and to the hylomorphic substance theory of Aristotle, which asserts that universals are immanently real within them. However, the name "nominalism" emerged from debates in medieval philosophy with Roscellinus.

Further:

The problem of universals

Nominalism arose in reaction to the problem of universals, specifically accounting for the fact that some things are of the same type. For example, Fluffy and Kitzler are both cats, or, the fact that certain properties are repeatable, such as: the grass, the shirt, and Kermit the Frog are green. One wants to know by virtue of what are Fluffy and Kitzler both cats, and what makes the grass, the shirt, and Kermit green.

The Platonist answer is that all the green things are green in virtue of the existence of a universal: a single abstract thing that, in this case, is a part of all the green things. With respect to the color of the grass, the shirt and Kermit, one of their parts is identical. In this respect, the three parts are literally one. Greenness is repeatable because there is one thing that manifests itself wherever there are green things.

Nominalism denies the existence of universals. The motivation for this flows from several concerns, the first one being where they might exist. Plato famously held, on one interpretation, that there is a realm of abstract forms or universals apart from the physical world (see theory of the forms). Particular physical objects merely exemplify or instantiate the universal. But this raises the question: Where is this universal realm? One possibility is that it is outside space and time. A view sympathetic with this possibility holds that, precisely because some form is immanent in several physical objects, it must also transcend each of those physical objects; in this way, the forms are "transcendent" only insofar as they are "immanent" in many physical objects. In other words, immanence implies transcendence; they are not opposed to one another. (Nor, in this view, would there be a separate "world" or "realm" of forms that is distinct from the physical world, thus shirking much of the worry about where to locate a "universal realm".) However, naturalists assert that nothing is outside of space and time. Some Neoplatonists, such as the pagan philosopher Plotinus and the Christian philosopher Augustine, imply (anticipating conceptualism) that universals are contained within the mind of God. To complicate things, what is the nature of the instantiation or exemplification relation?

Also: I note that the wikipedia article spends considerable time with William of Occam. In this last podcast, which I edited down to make it fit a normal length, I edited out a brief discussion that we had of Occam's razor. That's a related topic to nominalism, it seems from the wikipedia article, and I'd like us to explore that as part of our current series on Cicero's "on the nature of the gods." But I think before we go too far in evaluating it we need to spend time with how it relates to William of Occam's views on nominalism, as there are things here that seem to be a cause for concern in regard to nominalism, and those issues probably relate to too broad an intrepretation of "Occam's razor" too. That's something Joshua was mentioning as well, that Occam's razor shouldn't be interpreted as meaning that "the simplest explanation is always correct." That would end up being a "rule" that I think goes further than Epicurus would go.

Comparing Occam to PD24: "PD24. If you reject any single sensation, and fail to distinguish between the conclusion of opinion, as to the appearance awaiting confirmation, and that which is actually given by the sensation or feeling, or each intuitive apprehension of the mind, you will confound all other sensations, as well, with the same groundless opinion, so that you will reject every standard of judgment. And if among the mental images created by your opinion you affirm both that which awaits confirmation, and that which does not, you will not escape error, since you will have preserved the whole cause of doubt in every judgment between what is right and what is wrong."

It appears to me that we have Epicurus laying down a better rule, that all theories which comply with facts about which we are confident must be considered to be possible, and that we don't settle on one until we have the facts to eliminate other possibilities. Injecting a rule of "preferring the simplest" or even "preferring the one which makes the least assumptions" concerns me as sounding like a rule which is not included within the more basic PD24. I wonder if Occam's viewpoint (or the way it is interpreted) is asserting a rule that Epicurus would say is not justifiable if we are to ground our opinions exclusively on the evidence of the sensations, anticipations, and feelings, rather than looking for logical rules that are allegedly superior to and more important than the actual evidence.

This topic won't be easy or quick to resolve but it's something we can discuss here for a while before staking out positions.

This is the Sedley commetary I am wanting to relate to reductionism, commenting that Epicurus rejects "reductionist atomism," in favor of the common sense perspective: "that there are truths at the microscopic level of elementary particles, and further very different truths at the phenomenal level; that the former must be capable of explaining the latter, but that neither level of description has a monopoly of truth.'

To me, cats are given the name "cats" by the mind, and the "name" is totally arbitrary, but it is not the mind that makes a cat a four-legged furry creature that chases mice. It's the combinations of atoms and void playing into the genetics that makes a "cat" what we think of as a "cat," and that's different from saying that every cat is a totally unique specimen. There are "commonalities" and those commonalities are not just in our minds.

Now maybe "nominalism" as a term was never meant to imply that the mind creates reality in full, but that would be the trend of thought to which "radical nominalism" might lead, just as radical reductionism leads toward the view of saying that "nothing really exists except atoms and void" which would not be a correct statement of Epicurus' view (even though it might be a correct statement of Democritus' view).

But in the end I think that it ought to be made clear that even if you consider Epicurus a "sort of nominalist" that he would have rejected too radical an interpretation of that view.



I am not satisfied with where we left this discussion two years ago.

Twentier and Don in particular contributed some really good reference material, with Twentier pointing out that Dewitt said that Epicurus ended up at a "sort of nominalism." And of course Godfrey and Pacatus' comments were very useful too.

But that's as close as we got to any kind of summary and I think there are significant issues that relate to Sedley's comments we discussed thereafter about Epicurus' rejection of radical reductionism that need to be incorporated.

We have some new people since two years ago and I would welcome new comments.

The article Don cited remains very much on point, and we need a clear summary?

Is Epicurus daily considered to be a nominalist, and if so or if not, with what kind of explanation?

I still tend to the view that Epicurus would reject "radical nominalism" just as Sedley describes him as rejecting radical reductionism. That would explain Dewitts "sort of" qualifier. But what is the nature of that qualification?

Followup discussion to the post at the Facebook Group. This first YT post was in response to my post over there which was a slightly modified version of what I posted in post 1 above. There is also other conversation there but this is probably the most relevant to repost.

YT: Cassius That was pretty much my take on it as well. I also thought it was somewhat off the mark to describe Jonathan Haidt as conservative, but that was just a minor issue. Might be worth trying to get him as a guest on Lucretius Today to flesh out these questions about tradition vs naturalism, Epicurus, Jefferson and Madison.

JB: YT I don’t think there would be anything gained by having this person as a guest on Lucretius Today. Perhaps I might want to know if he believed that there was a god who was watching his every move. Epicurus had the right answer to this!

Cassius Amicus: Yes the possibility of inviting him to our Epicurus podcast is definitely something to consider, but at present my thoughts are more like John's. I definitely found the professor - and the interviewer - to be likeable and intelligent and easy to listen to, but I suspect that the "Madison" orientation would invite more confrontation on religion than it would illumination as to Hume or Bentham or the rest. They might well be uncomfortable appearing on an explicitly "Epicurean" podcast with there being no way to bridge those deeper issues.

But I did find it remarkable to listen to them talk to each other and both seem to appreciate that there is more to Epicurus than meets the eye, and even when he disagreed with Epicurus the professor gave Epicurus credit for being the real "architect" of this position in the ancient world, and deserving of far more credit for his influence than he is given.

The professor's remarks to the effect that Epicurean theory of pleasure is too "light" (my word) to sustain a full moral theory is a common problem with lots of commentators, because they focus on the stimulative pleasures and then stumble over the "absence of pain" statements as essentially unintelligible, so they move on.

One day we're going to be able to make the case better that "absence of pain" is not a dark phrase but simply means all experiences of life, including all normal and healthy physical and mental existence, which are not explicitly painful. This formulation is clearly visible in Cicero's presentation of Epicurean ethics where Torquatus is explaining it, even giving examples such as the proper reply to Chrysippus' "hand" argument, but that kind of detail has simply not penetrated the orthodox distaste for "pleasure" as a term.

I'd like to think that there is a younger generation that is immune to that older orthodoxy, and immune to the gloss-over that's been given to Epicurus, and that unpolluted attitude is what I hear in the voices of both the interviewer and the professor. They seem mystified that Epicurus has been given so little credit for his influence, and if they stick with the study long enough (and if they aren't so firmly in the grip of religion) then there's good reason for hope that new attitudes will eventually prevail.