Posts by Cassius

We had a very good recording session for this episode, and editing is going well.

Before I forget I want to mention an important supplement to Dr Sedley's article which provided much of the focus of the episode. In addition to that article, i strongly recommend A.A. Long's "Chance and Natural Law In Epicureanism" which extends Dr. Sedley's reasoning as to the impact of the swerve.

The basic point is that not only does Dr. Sedley's argument that the swerve is not Epicurus' primary argument for "agency" make sense, but that it is important not to exaggerate the expected impact of any swerve that does exist. In Dr. Long's view, the swerve rarely "breaks through" into the universe that is observable at our level, and that in fact in Epicurus' mind the primary extent to which it does "break through" is in the agency available to intelligent animals. As Dr. Long points out, Epicurus could never have intended the swerve to be an ever-present force creating random events at all times and places, at that would have exploded the original reason for atomism in the first place -- that it explains the regularity - the "laws of nature" that we do in fact see in the mechanical operation going on around us.

This doesn't make into this episode but someone exploring the issues further would want to incorporate Dr. Long's article.

It should cheer all our regulars to know that Don and I are in complete agreement on the Oxford Comma!

Great find Don.

So where, if ever, in the ancient world do we have a variation of the word "tetrapharmakos" appearing on the same piece of paper as the four lines from Philodemus?

Are you then saying that the general idea of a "four-part-cure" originated with nothing to do with Epicurus whatsoever, and it is a generic term that commentators just came to apply to the passage from Philodemus after it was discovered in the modern world simply because it has four parts, just like we apply the word "kleenex" to any kind of tissue paper or "xerox" to photocopying?

Hey this might actually lead to something - but note the qualifying last sentence. I hope this doesn't lead us to find eventually that the term was intended by the christians who used it to be insulting, as one might read DeWitt to deduce....

So the name tetrapharmakos, and not just the details of the formulation, does appear in the Philodemus text itself?

--- For Comparison Purposes, Grok:

When was the word "Tetrapharmakon" first used?
The word "Tetrapharmakon" (or its variant "Tetrapharmakos") was first used in the context of ancient Greek pharmacology, but its metaphorical use in Epicurean philosophy dates back to the 1st century BCE. Specifically, it appears in the works of Philodemus, preserved in the Herculaneum Papyri, where it refers to the four chief doctrines or remedies for healing the soul. This is documented in sources like the Liddell-Scott Greek Lexicon, which lists the term and its uses, and various discussions on Epicurean philosophy websites.

Who was the NEXT person after Philodemus to mention it?

After Philodemus, the next known mention of the "Tetrapharmakon" comes from the early Christian writers Hippolytus of Rome and Tertullian, both of whom referenced it in their works critiquing Epicurean philosophy. This is based on posts found on X.

The "ultimate authority" in December 2024!

I asked:

When was the word "Tetrapharmakon" first used?

ChatGPT said:

The word "Tetrapharmakon" (meaning "four-part remedy") is attributed to the later Epicurean philosopher Philodemus of Gadara (circa 110–35 BCE). While it encapsulates key aspects of Epicurean philosophy, its formulation as a concise term may not have originated directly from Epicurus himself. The phrase is most famously associated with a poetic fragment found in Philodemus' works, which outlines four key maxims derived from Epicurus' teachings:

1. Do not fear the gods.
2. Do not worry about death.
3. What is good is easy to get.
4. What is terrible is easy to endure.

The earliest surviving textual evidence of the term is in Herculaneum papyri linked to Philodemus' writings, dating to the 1st century BCE. This suggests that the term gained currency among Epicureans as a way to succinctly summarize their core ethical guidance during or after Philodemus' time.

Cassius said:

Who was the NEXT person after Philodemus to mention it?

ChatGPT said:

The term "Tetrapharmakon" is primarily associated with the Epicurean philosopher Philodemus of Gadara (circa 110–35 BCE), who utilized it to encapsulate four principal doctrines of Epicurean philosophy. The earliest known textual evidence of this term appears in the Herculaneum papyri, specifically in Philodemus' works dating to the 1st century BCE. Subsequent explicit mentions of the "Tetrapharmakon" are scarce in surviving ancient literature. While later Epicurean thinkers and commentators, such as Diogenes of Oenoanda in the 2nd century CE, propagated Epicurean doctrines, it remains uncertain whether they specifically referenced the "Tetrapharmakon" by name. Therefore, based on existing evidence, Philodemus is the earliest and, perhaps, the sole ancient source to explicitly mention the "Tetrapharmakon."

Yes I agree! I see his statement about "would never" as a personal opinion -- which sounds good to me -- but it sure would have been nice to cite for us where the name "tetrapharmakon" comes from!

And yes I agree too with the inconsistency that he cites it elsewhere more approvingly than I would myself. Again, not that I think that it can't be made to work quite nicely by those who know the big Epicurean picture, but that in its truncated form it can too easily be misunderstood by those who don't, especially if people get the impression it can take the place of the first four full doctrines. Nobody here does that, but it's very frustrating to read these generalist articles stating that the tetrapharmakon is all you need to know! It's a great summary of everything important that Epicurus had to say!

No, it's not!

Welcome -- we look forward to hearing more from you.

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We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

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Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Don

it was definitely in use and in circulation among the wider Epicurean community. It's authenticity as an Epicurean "memento" verse is indisputable

Don aside from the papyrus we are talking about what citations can you provide for that? Possibly they are in the thread above and if so I will delete this post... (But after looking I don't see anything.)

I cited in this post above that Bailey does not mention it appearing anywhere else. But maybe someone has found another cite. Can anyone provide a cite to where this appears other than the papyrus? I seem to recall there might be something brief in Cicero but not even a full recitation that would verify that this is the version. But by all means let's keep an eye out to track this down.

Post

RE: Diving Deep Into The History of The Tetrapharmakon / Tetrapharmakos

In Bailey's "Epicurus, the Extant Remains" there is no reference to any appearance of this formulation anywhere in the ancient world other than the above-referenced Herculaneum scroll:

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/231/

Cassius

February 2, 2019 at 2:29 PM

In the intervening time since this thread was started we have spent a lot of time with Cicero and he quotes Epicurus in great detail but does not ever give this formulation the kind of central estimation of being a summary of the whole philosophy that it receives in the modern world. Cicero lets Torquatus and Velleius go on and on with apparently reliable explanation of many without any reference to this formulation.

If some combination of Lucretius or Diogenes of Oinoanda or Diogenes Laertius or any similar figure were found to have cited this formulation I would feel entirely differently.

Quote from Don

Hmmm... The general rule I see in play here is "Overindulgence leads to pain

While it is true that overindulgence does generally provide pain, I would see that as an uncontroversial point and therefore unlikely to be the reason for its inclusion , and especially for its inclusion in the manner it is written.

This exchange may seem pedantic but I think there is a lot more going on here than just the two of us talking shop so I think it's very useful!

My motivations are directed at what I perceived is a problem that I link to Martha Nussbaum's "Therapy of Desire." I think it helps to consider whether Epicurus was primarily a clinician or a revolutionary philosopher. In the end he is both, but the modern worlds excess emphasis on the clinical aspect has in my view led to under-appreciation of the revolutionary implications of the philosophy.

"Everyone" accepts that overindulgence leads to pain, but "pleasure is the highest good" and "even the pleasures that some deplore are acceptable if they bring happiness to the person we think deplorqble" are words that wars get fought over.

Quote from Don

BUT - if one thinks they're going to be the exception to the general rule, they're usually disappointed.

I think you and I and probably all of us in this discussion are going to reach the same conclusions 99 out of 100 or maybe 100 out of 100 times.

But since one of our goals here is to be as clear as possible for ourselves and for others who are reading, we need to be clear: What really is the "general rule" that we are discussing?

As I see it, the most important general rule is that pleasure is desirable because it is pleasure. That's a flat assertion with no exceptions whatsoever.

Some pleasures are not sometimes undesirable or painful -- that never is the case, and thus there are no exceptions.

We shift the terminology when we talk about choice and avoidance. Many things - most things? - all things? can be either choiceworthy or non-choiceworthy depending on the circumstances. And we're probably in complete agreement about the probabilities of what is likely to bring more pain than pleasure.

Where Cicero and the majority of the rest of the world try to attack Epicurus is in conflating all these issues together and therefore asserting that "pleasure" is not the best term for the ultimate good. If we agree to that, then we invite in all sorts of logical problems that ultimately make it untenable to maintain that "pleasure" is the ultimate good or ultimate goal.

So I think there's very good reason for being an absolutist and a literalist on Epicurus' statements about pleasure. And that's why I am also very comfortable with "in-your-face" interpretations of PD10 and other aggressive assertions (pleasure IS the absence of pain; the sun IS the size it appears to be; all sensations ARE true; death IS nothing to us, gods ARE living beings blessed and imperishable; the virtues (including wisdom, justice, friendship, and the rest) ARE nothing more than tools for pleasure; etc.). That kind of assertiveness is necessary to get the point across because most people don't think that way, and with them you have to "philosophize with a hammer!"

(Credit goes to someone in the last Wednesday Zoom for bringing up that Nietzsche hammer allusion...)

It is unfortunate that we have to choose only one responsive Icon, because I wanted to use both the like and the smile face. Limited to only one choice, I chose the like!

As usual I think we are in almost total agreement, with the only possible exception being:

Quote from Don

I think it has to be number two since Epicurus includes all activities that bring pleasure as defined as good.

You mean there is doubt in your mind about that?

Smiling aside I do have something additional to contribute that this gives me the opportunity to say.

I focused several comments on the use of "hypothetical" constructs, but that may not be the primary issue that's going on (not between our two interpretations, but something that's causing widespread issues).

Rather than the issue being use of hypotheticals, maybe the word is the issue of the literalism that Epicurus seems to me to be using. (Mostly option one of the following definition.)

Quote

literalism [ lit-er-uh-liz-uhm ] noun

1. adherence to the exact letter or the literal sense, as in translation or interpretation:

   to interpret the law with uncompromising literalism.

2. a peculiarity of expression resulting from this:

   The work is studded with these obtuse literalisms.

3. exact representation or portrayal, without idealization, as in art or literature:

   a literalism more appropriate to journalism than to the novel.

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For example when he says things like "by pleasure we mean the absence of pain" or "death is nothing to us" or "The limit of quantity in pleasures is the removal of all that is painful. Wherever pleasure is present, as long as it is there, there is neither pain of body, nor of mind, nor of both at once."

I think he means those statements to be taken absolutely literary, and not in any way metaphorically or allegorically or in any way that would undercut the takeaway that he means what he says and says what he means.

He's literally defining pleasure as absence of pain, which means pain is absence of pleasure, and the two options are to be taken as literally the same, at the very least for the purpose of logical analysis.

Joshua's been regularly suggesting that the statement about believing gods to be living beings blessed and imperishable is meant to be "definitional" about a god, and I think he's right, meaning that we should take Epicurus literally at his word. We can interpolate the implications of the statement all day, but the beginning of the analysis is that we should take him to be speaking very precisely.

That may be a better way of getting at the way PD10 and many other statements are worded. It's reasonable to take them as hypotheticals and think through the implications to come to practical applications, but at the same time they are intended to be taken literally. It's the literalness that gives them their clarity and logical order, and allows you to judge exactly what is consistent and inconsistent with them.

Yes, literally, Epicurus seems clearly to me to be affirming as an absolute that yes, all pleasures are desirable, because they feel pleasurable, but at the same time, and without violating that first phrase, not all pleasures are to be chosen, because choosing them will frequently bring more pain than pleasure when all consequences are considered.

It's literally true at one and the same time that all pleasures are pleasing, yet not all pleasures are to be chosen, because -- considering all consequences -- the pain that generally follows will outweigh the pleasure.

BUT - and this is a big point - the reason it's not proper to go further and say that choosing them will DEFINITELY bring more pain than pleasure is that there is no force of determinism in the universe that guarantees that result. Generally, even an overwhelming number of times, the result is predictable, but it's not always predictable, because there is no force of necessity which requires it to be so. When Epicurus wouldn't even admit it to be necessary that Metrodorus will necessarily be alive or dead tomorrow, he's not going to admit it to be necessary that any particular choice will necessarily lead to a precise result in terms of net pleasure or pain.

Quote from Don

Nevertheless, if you indulge in "sex, drugs, and rock and roll"; Epicurus is going to be there afterwards shaking his head, giving you some frank speech, but no doubt welcoming you back to the garden if you want to sincerely learn about the "limits of our pains (of either mind or body) and desires" and to "study nature."

Perhaps you equate "indulge" with "over-indulge," or perhaps that's a typo, but I would think that sentence definitely needs to read "OVER indulge" to be clear. That's because I am pretty sure we agree that "sex, drugs, and rocknroll" are definitely desirable pleasures, and completely proper ones, when not "overindulged in" - which means essentially "to excess." Correct?

Quote from Don

Epicureanism has always been to me a philosophy of personal responsibility (tempered with an understanding of chance and circumstance). It's the outcomes of the choices that are made, NOT (necessarily) the pleasures experienced in and of themselves.

I completely agree with the emphasis on personal responsibility, unless you mean that wording to indicate that personal responsibility is more important than pleasure itself. I don't think you mean that, but in the context of the discussion I could see someone casually reading the post thinking that is what you mean. We live for pleasure, and personal responsibility is essential to ensure that we do not overindulge and end up with too much pain, but personal responsibility itself is just a "virtue" and therefore a "tool" for living pleasurably, and it is living pleasurably ("pleasure") that is the goal.

The difference in our readings continues to be (I think) that you and I have a different view of the usefulness and meaning of hypotheticals. In itself that difference is not a bad thing, but it needs to be understood by people browsing through the threads. I would say you're more suspicious of the problem of the stating accurate premises to include in using hypotheticals than I am, and so you sometimes take the intent of the hypothetical somewhat differently. I am willing to embrace that problem and believe that the challenges in stating the premises are what helps the point of the hypothetical to sink in. Regardless of that, however, in the end, I think we arrive mostly at the same place.

As for me in my current thinking, I am generally in agreement with most of post 20, but I would still say that the following excerpt from it ("unfulfilled desires are/cause pain") is overbroad.

Quote from Matteng

- Yes unfulfilled desires are/causes pain

I would be closer to agreeing that "unfulfillable" desires are or cause pain, but I suspect that too would be too overbroad. You might desire to recover from late-stage disease, and that desire would be pleasurable for you as long as you maintain it, even though it might be impossible to achieve. Heck - this even goes for Epicurus' statement in the letter to Menoeceus that it would be better to believe the myths of the gods than to give in to determinism. In that statement he couldn't be saying that the gods would in fact reward the worshiper, and he probably means that the thought of getting the reward would at least be pleasurable for so long as you could maintain the fiction.

Closer yet might be "intoxicating desires" are or cause pain, but even then for the duration of the intoxication that can often be pleasurable (or so I am told!).

Maybe there's no way around the conclusion that only rigorous way to state this is that "painful desires" are in fact the only desires properly labeled as painful.

But that's the question before the house.

Lucretius Today Episode 257 is now available:

"There Is No Necessity To Live Under the Control of Necessity"

In last week's part 1 of the discussion of necessity (to be posted on 12/6) we devoted most of the discussion to the cultural background of the question and why it remains significant.

We also addressed what is generally thought of as Epicurus' first response to determinism, involving the swerve as discussed in Lucretius Book 2.

This week we will turn to additional - and arguably more important - issues that Epicurus raised against determinism.

Our material for the episode will consist largely in David Sedley's article "Epicurus' Rejection of Determinism" combined with Norman DeWitt's Chapter on "The New Hedonism."

There's a limit as to how many rabbits we can chase in regard to other pro-determinist arguments, but if anyone has something specific that we should consider addressing in this episode, please let us know in this thread.

"A philosophy which values life, rather than seeks to extinguish it, will seek to intelligently pursue pleasure,"

---- writing that helps me focus on the time issue. I don't think you can value "life" without implying that you also value "the continuation of life over time." Since we only have "the now" and we don't have total control over the future, it seems to me that there is inherently going to be a "desire for time" element in valuing life that is not eliminated by saying "I'm satisfied with what I have already experienced. "

There's got to be a way to articulate a philosophically proper perspective in which you are both (1) satisfied that you have lived well so far, but you also (2) possess a desire for the continuance of that life without that desire for continuance being construed as pain or anything that is negative.

I think we've talked about in the past as well that the issue of "variation" in the sense of unlimited time producing no "greater" pleasure, but only variation, does not imply that variation itself is not valuable or desirable. All of us know by experience that variation IS valuable and desirable. So it's not that variation over time isn't desirable, because it is. The point has to be more the philosophical one that variation cannot make "pure pleasure" (in the sense of total absence of pain) "more pure," and variation cannot make "total absence of pain" more "total."

"Life as most everyone lives it is unsatisfactory, filled with misery, pain, unfulfilled desire, etc."

Thanks for that - yes I want to be accurate - and I think your description of the Buddhist position makes it worse from an Epicurean perspective than what i described. They do not offer a positive view of pleasure as the remedy to that problem, but essentially nothingness - the death of desire.

So don't let me go too easy on it!

The remedy to misery, pain, and unfulfilled desire is NOT to end desire, nor to minimize desire, nor to define desire out of existence, or to wish ourselves out of existence. A philosophy which values life, rather than seeks to extinguish it, will seek to intelligently pursue pleasure, which specifically includes those desires for the pleasures of the senses that these other philosophies focus their time on condemning.

I do agree that we don't want to turn this into an expose on Buddhism (we've gone through most of that already) but there's a reason why anyone who seeks to suppress desire and pleaure is relevant, and the issues have to be confronted head-on.

The Discussions focused on Buddhism are here:

Epicurus vs. Buddha and the Buddhists

Including particularly this thread:

Post

RE: 2022 Epicurus vs Buddhism Compare and Contrast Thread

Of the ancient Indian philosophies of Ājīvika, Ajñana, Buddhism, Chārvāka, Jainism, Mīmāṁsā, Nyāya, Samkhya, Vaisheshika, Vedanta, and Yoga, we'll find the closest companion to Epicureanism in Chārvāka. Early Buddhism is most closely related to the Indian school of Ajñana, from which Pyrrhonism developed, so, in general, I don't think that comparisons between early Buddhism and Epicurean philosophy are helpful. They are dissimilar and historically unrelated.

In terms of physics, Epicureanism…

Eikadistes

January 27, 2022 at 10:02 PM

Still working on this week's podcast but should have it out shortly.

In the meantime, I think we failed to include (so far) this citation to Virgil which is highly appropriate to a discussion of Epicurus' attitude toward "fate" --

Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
Atque metus omnes, et inexorabile fatum
Subjecit pedibus, strepitumque Acherontis avari

Happy is he who is able to know the causes of things,

And who has trampled beneath his feet all fear,

Inexorable fate, and the din of the devouring underworld

-Publius Vergilius Maro

Thank you for the kind words GnothiSeauton and hope you find it useful!