Posts by Cassius

Both Plato and Aristotle, two of the most influential philosophers in Western thought, placed great emphasis on virtue as central to a good and flourishing life. While their approaches to virtue differ, they both argued that virtue is essential for achieving eudaimonia (happiness or flourishing). Below are some of their most famous quotes in support of virtue being the highest good.

Plato on Virtue

Plato, through the voice of Socrates in his dialogues, often explores the nature of virtue (aretē) and its role in achieving a just and harmonious soul.

1. Virtue as the Health of the Soul

Quote

"Virtue is the health and beauty and well-being of the soul, and vice is the disease and weakness and deformity of the soul."
— Republic, Book 4 (444e)

2. Virtue and Knowledge

Quote

"No one does wrong willingly. Evil is the result of ignorance. If people knew what was right, they would do it."
— Protagoras (352c)

3. The Importance of Virtue

Quote

"The most important thing is not life, but the good life."
— Crito (48b)

4. Virtue as the Highest Good

Quote

"The good is the end of all endeavor, the object on which every heart is set."
— Republic, Book 7 (505e)

5. Virtue and Justice

Quote

"Justice is the excellence of the soul, and injustice is the defect of the soul."
— Republic, Book 1 (353e)

Aristotle on Virtue

Aristotle, in his Nicomachean Ethics, provides a systematic account of virtue (aretē) as the mean between extremes and the foundation of a flourishing life.

1. Virtue as the Highest Good

Quote

"Happiness is an activity of the soul in accordance with virtue."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1098a)

2. Virtue as a Habit

Quote

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 2 (1103a)

3. The Golden Mean

Quote

"Virtue is a mean between two vices, one of excess and one of deficiency."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 2 (1106b)

4. Virtue and Reason

Quote

"The function of man is to live a certain kind of life, and this activity implies a rational principle, and the function of a good man is the good and noble performance of these."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1098a)

5. Virtue and Happiness

Quote

"Happiness depends on ourselves, and it is achieved through virtue, which is a state of character concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1106b)

6. The Role of Virtue in a Flourishing Life

Quote

"The good for man is an activity of the soul in accordance with virtue, and if there are many virtues, in accordance with the best and most complete."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1098a)

Key Differences Between Plato and Aristotle

• Plato: Virtue is closely tied to knowledge and the harmony of the soul. In the Republic, he argues that a just soul, governed by reason, is the key to happiness.
• Aristotle: Virtue is a habit developed through practice and lies in finding the "golden mean" between extremes. He emphasizes that virtue is not just theoretical but must be lived through action.

Summary

Both Plato and Aristotle agree that virtue is the highest good and essential for a flourishing life. Plato focuses on the harmony of the soul and the role of knowledge in achieving virtue, while Aristotle emphasizes the practical development of virtuous habits and the importance of reason in guiding ethical behavior.

If you'd like to explore these ideas further, I recommend reading:

• Plato’s Republic and Meno
• Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics

Let me know if you'd like more quotes or insights!

I'll combine that with this from ChatGPT;

Here are some notable quotes from ancient Stoics that support the idea of virtue as the highest good:

1. Marcus Aurelius:
   • "If it is not right, do not do it. If it is not true, do not say it." (Meditations, Book XII, 17)
   • This reflects the Stoic emphasis on virtue as the guiding principle for action and speech, aligning behavior with moral integrity.
2. Epictetus:
   • "Virtue consists in a will which is in agreement with Nature." (Discourses, 1.4.11)
   • For Epictetus, aligning one’s will with nature and reason (the Stoic ideal) is the essence of virtue and the highest good.
3. Seneca:
   • "Virtue is nothing else than right reason." (Letters to Lucilius, 66.32)
   • This statement underscores the Stoic belief that living in accordance with reason and acting virtuously are inseparable.
4. Cicero (a Roman statesman influenced by Stoicism):
   • "The good life is not possible without virtue, and virtue itself is sufficient for happiness." (De Finibus Bonorum et Malorum, Book III)
   • Cicero emphasizes the Stoic principle that virtue alone is both necessary and sufficient for achieving true happiness.
5. Zeno of Citium (founder of Stoicism):
   • "Happiness is a good flow of life, and this can only be achieved through the possession of virtue." (Fragment cited by Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, VII.88)
   • Zeno defines happiness as living in accordance with nature and virtue, highlighting the centrality of virtue to the Stoic conception of the good life.

These quotes illustrate the Stoic doctrine that virtue is the ultimate good, and other aspects of life (such as health, wealth, or pleasure) are secondary or indifferent in comparison.

Here are some significant quotes from Plato and Aristotle that emphasize virtue as the highest good:

Plato

1. "The soul of the man who lives justly and who is dear to the gods is in the best condition."
   • (The Republic, Book X, 613a)
   • Plato connects justice, a core virtue, to the ultimate well-being of the soul, suggesting that virtue leads to the highest good.
2. "Virtue does not spring from riches, but riches and all other human goods, both private and public, from virtue."
   • (The Apology, 30b)
   • In this statement, Socrates (as Plato's mouthpiece) argues that virtue is the source of all good things, prioritizing it above material wealth and worldly pursuits.
3. "The life which is unexamined is not worth living."
   • (The Apology, 38a)
   • While not directly about virtue, this emphasizes the need for self-reflection and pursuit of wisdom, which Plato associates with living virtuously and achieving the highest form of good.

Aristotle

1. "Happiness is an activity of the soul in accordance with perfect virtue."
   • (Nicomachean Ethics, Book I, 1098a16-17)
   • Aristotle defines happiness (eudaimonia), the highest human good, as the practice of virtue in accordance with reason over a complete life.
2. "The good for man is an activity of the soul in conformity with excellence or virtue."
   • (Nicomachean Ethics, Book I, 1098a7-8)
   • Aristotle ties the highest good to actions performed in line with virtue, emphasizing that virtue is essential for achieving the good life.
3. "Moral virtue comes about as a result of habit."
   • (Nicomachean Ethics, Book II, 1103a14)
   • Here, Aristotle highlights that virtue is cultivated through habitual practice, making it the foundation of ethical behavior and a life well-lived.
4. "The best good is happiness, and this is achieved through a life of virtue in accordance with reason."
   • (Nicomachean Ethics, Book X, 1177a12-18)
   • Aristotle argues that human flourishing depends on living virtuously, guided by reason, as the ultimate good.

Both philosophers affirm that virtue is fundamental to achieving the highest good, though Plato views it as a harmony of the soul aligned with the Forms, while Aristotle frames it as the practical realization of reason in human life.

Using Deepseek here is a preliminary list. I doubt this is by any means the best, but it is a good list of names:

The Stoics, a school of Hellenistic philosophy, firmly believed that virtue (moral excellence) is the highest good and the key to a flourishing life. They argued that virtue is sufficient for happiness and that external things like wealth, fame, and pleasure are indifferent. Below are some of the most famous quotes from ancient Stoics in support of virtue being the highest good:

1. Marcus Aurelius

Marcus Aurelius, the Roman Emperor and Stoic philosopher, emphasized the importance of virtue in his personal writings, Meditations.

Quote

"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
— Meditations, Book 10

Quote

"The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts: therefore, guard accordingly, and take care that you entertain no notions unsuitable to virtue and reasonable nature."
— Meditations, Book 5

Quote

"Just that you do the right thing. The rest doesn’t matter."
— Meditations, Book 12

2. Epictetus

Epictetus, a former slave turned Stoic teacher, focused on the importance of aligning one's will with virtue and reason.

Quote

"First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do."
— Discourses, Book 3

Quote

"Virtue is the only good. There is no other good, neither early nor late, neither great nor small, neither in the living nor in the dead."
— Discourses, Book 2

Quote

"Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants."
— Discourses, Book 2

3. Seneca

Seneca, the Roman Stoic philosopher and statesman, wrote extensively about the importance of virtue and the dangers of vice.

Quote

"Virtue is nothing else than right reason."
— Letters to Lucilius, Letter 66

Quote

"The greatest good is virtue; the next, liberty; the third and last, the necessaries of life."
— Letters to Lucilius, Letter 74

Quote

"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor."
— Letters to Lucilius, Letter 2

4. Zeno of Citium

Zeno of Citium, the founder of Stoicism, laid the groundwork for the Stoic emphasis on virtue.

Quote

"Happiness is a good flow of life."
— Zeno (as reported by Diogenes Laërtius)

Quote

"The goal of life is living in agreement with nature, and virtue is the harmony between the will and nature."
— Zeno (paraphrased from Stoic teachings)

5. Cleanthes

Cleanthes, the second head of the Stoic school, reinforced the idea that virtue is the only true good.

Quote

"Lead me, Zeus, and you too, Destiny, to wherever your decrees have assigned me. I follow readily, but if I choose not, wretched as I will be, I must follow still."
— Hymn to Zeus

6. Musonius Rufus

Musonius Rufus, a Roman Stoic philosopher, emphasized the practical application of virtue in daily life.

Quote

"Virtue is not only an ability but also a disposition to act in accordance with reason."
— Lectures, Lecture 1

Quote

"The human being is born with an inclination toward virtue."
— Lectures, Lecture 2

Summary

The Stoics consistently taught that virtue is the highest good and the foundation of a good life. Virtue, for them, meant living in accordance with reason, nature, and moral excellence. External goods like wealth, health, and fame were considered "indifferents"—neither good nor bad in themselves, but only in how they are used.

If you'd like to explore these ideas further, I recommend reading:

• Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
• Discourses and Enchiridion by Epictetus
• Letters to Lucilius by Seneca

I presume that the pro-virtue argument is stated succinctly by Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus as well, so if anyone knows particularly pithy citations to parts of their work that we should consider including as well, please post.

To repeat, Matteng, this post is very helpful. We have some sickness that is going to cause us to delay this episode for a week. That will give us time to take up this suggestion, and address the major arguments that Stoics and Platonists make for this position.

If anyone has other specific "virtue-is-in-itself-the-highest-good" arguments let us know and we'll try to include them - even if it takes us more than one episode to do so.

This is no doubt one of the most profound division points of all, so it will be good to cover it is strongly as we can.

Thank you Matteng!

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We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

A discussion guide for the Epicurean sections of Tusculan Disputations is here:

Thread

Episode 271 - TD01 - Understanding Epicurus Through Tusculan Disputations

Welcome to Episode 271 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our…

Cassius

March 3, 2025 at 10:56 AM

Please feel free to make suggestions for additional citations within TD that are relevant to Epicurus but may not mention Epicurus's name specifically.

Here is a bullet-point list of sections within Cicero's Tusculan Disputations where Epicurean ideas are discussed, along with brief summaries:

• Book I, Sections 18–21
  • Cicero critiques the Epicurean view that death is not to be feared because sensation ceases with death. He argues that even if death entails the loss of sensation, this does not necessarily mean it is not an evil.
• Book I, Section 33
  • Epicurus' position that death is "nothing to us" is revisited. Cicero questions whether this truly removes the fear of death, as he believes that the anticipation of future suffering can still be disturbing.
• Book II, Sections 9–11
  • Cicero challenges the Epicurean view that pleasure is the highest good, arguing that virtue must be pursued for its own sake. He asserts that if pleasure were the highest good, moral excellence would be subordinated to bodily enjoyment.
• Book III, Sections 17–22
  • Cicero critiques the Epicurean claim that pain is the greatest evil, arguing that a wise person can endure pain with fortitude. He asserts that mental distress caused by vice is a greater evil than bodily pain.
• Book IV, Sections 6–7
  • The Epicurean approach to emotions, particularly their attempt to eliminate mental disturbances (ataraxia), is examined. Cicero argues that their focus on eliminating fear and anxiety does not sufficiently account for the role of reason and virtue in emotional well-being.
• Book V, Sections 29–32
  • The Epicurean notion that friendship is based on mutual utility and the pursuit of pleasure is addressed. Cicero contends that true friendship must be based on virtue rather than a calculation of benefits.

Cicero generally critiques Epicureanism as inadequate for achieving true virtue and happiness, advocating instead for a Stoic or Platonic approach to ethics.

Our "Discussion Guide" for Epicurean references in "Academic Questions" is here:

Debating Epicurus In Academic Questions

There is important information in "Academic Questions" about Epicurus that needs to be brought out. Here's a "Deepseek" response with citations to places in the text to get us started on the areas to focus. This will help in assembly of a discussion guide from which we can conduct the podcast and future discussions:

1. Critique of Epicurean Epistemology

Cicero critiques Epicurean epistemology in Book II of Academica (the Lucullus). He argues against the Epicurean reliance on sensory perception as the sole source of truth. Look for discussions of sensation, error, and the limits of human knowledge.

• Key Section: Academica II.19–II.24 (Cicero's critique of Epicurean sensory theory).

2. Epicurean Physics and Cosmology

Cicero addresses Epicurean physics, particularly their atomism, in Book I of Academica (the Catulus). He questions the adequacy of atomic theory to explain the order and complexity of the universe.

• Key Section: Academica I.5–I.7 (discussion of Epicurean atomism and cosmology).

3. Ethics and the Pursuit of Pleasure

Cicero critiques Epicurean ethics, especially their focus on pleasure as the highest good, in Book II of Academica. He contrasts Epicurean hedonism with the Stoic emphasis on virtue.

• Key Section: Academica II.131–II.140 (critique of Epicurean ethics and the concept of pleasure).

4. The Role of the Gods

Cicero discusses Epicurean theology in Book I of Academica, particularly their view of the gods as detached and uninvolved in the world. He contrasts this with the Stoic belief in divine providence.

• Key Section: Academica I.29–I.32 (critique of Epicurean theology).

5. Skepticism vs. Epicurean Dogmatism

Throughout Academica, Cicero contrasts the Skeptic approach to knowledge with the dogmatism of the Epicureans. He argues that the Epicureans are too confident in their claims and fail to acknowledge the limits of human understanding.

• Key Section: Academica II.98–II.104 (Skeptic critique of Epicurean dogmatism).

Here is one - if anyone wants to recommend another, please do. I've vetted this one only for being understandable for the first several minutes in English:

Here are introductions, but I like Bryan's suggestion to listen to the original:

Plato’s Timaeus (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Timaeus (dialogue) - Wikipedia

We haven't heard from him in a while but happy birthday to a long-standing participant here from our American neighbor-to-the-north - EricR!

Happy Birthday to EricR! Learn more about EricR and say happy birthday on EricR's timeline: EricR

I will address this on several levels, first for Pacatus himself, who has been unfailingly friendly and positive in his participation here, who will always be welcome, and who has a good understanding of the issues involved. Secondly I want to address this for lurkers who might not be sure exactly what is being discussed or the reasons for the disagreement.

Pacatus is aware from his lengthy participation here that I welcome postings like this thread, which bring to our attention articles that may or may not be positive about Epicurus. In the spirit of frank speech which Epicurus advised, and with the knowledge that we are speaking here at the forum with others who fully understand that we are here for the study and promotion of Epicurean philosophy, we regularly share frank criticisms of outside materials and perspectives.

One of the perspectives that is inconsistent with Epicurean views in most instances is eclecticism, which blurs distinctions about or misrepresents what Epicurus really taught. Epicurus himself complained about misunderstanding and misrepresentation of his work in the letter to Menoeceus.

I have made the observation many times that it is a characteristic pattern to see some people want to Stoicize or otherwise water down Epicurean philosophy. Such people follow a repeated pattern: Most often, they praise peripheral aspects of Epicurean ethics with which they agree (prudent and self-sufficient living), but totally omit aspects with which they do not agree. Almost unfailingly, such an approach involves the omission of the keystone of the ethics, the focus on "Pleasure" as the highest good. Such watering down efforts also characteristically totally omit reference to Epicurean physics (the rejection of supernatural forces) and Epicurean canonics (the affirmation that knowledge is possible based on the senses). These latter omissions aren't quite as important as the omission of the "Pleasure," focus, but in many cases the omission of physics and canonics probably explains why such writers fail to see the error in what they are doing.

The article referenced in this thread exhibits all those characteristics, and thus I consider it unhelpful to a good understanding of Epicurus. That's the lens through which it's most important and appropriate to analyze the article here at the forum. Articles can contain good information in part, but still be articles which would not be good to recommend to people who don't already have a good understanding of Epicurus. In this case, the article is a pro-Stoic article written for Stoic sympathizers mildly acquainted with modern Stoicism. As such, it is what it is, and provides a good example for us to talk about. So to repeat -- posting it here is helpful, because it affords the opportunity for exchanges like this, which open the eyes of many people to the real issues.

Another thing to repeat is that the writer of the article didn't ask for my opinion, and I am not offering it to him by providing it here, or offering my comments to the world at large. The writer is obviously sympathetic to Stoicism and probably semi-Stoic himself, which is certainly his prerogative. Our discussion is for consumption here, by those who are interested in understanding and promoting Epicurean philosophy. From that point of view, it's helpful to observe how much he omits, both from an Epicurean and a Stoic perspective. As I said in my comments, I suspect the ancients Stoics, and modern fundamentalist Stoics, probably share my criticism of the omission of commentary about the fundamentals on which Stoicism is based. For all I know, the writer's failure to understand the role of Pleasure arises from him never being exposed to writers like Norman Dewitt or Emily Austin. Very many good people hold their opinions because all they have been exposed to is orthodox academic commentary.

So I am glad to have the opportunity to revisit my comments in the above thread. I continue to see no reason to revise them, and this gives me the opportunity to expand them. Pacatus properly understands, and his post conveys, that there is a wide gulf between eclecticism and Epicurean philosophy.

There's a big world of generalist philosophical discussion on the internet. On the other hand, there are few if any other places where people who study Epicurus and come to see him as did Lucretius or Lucian of Samosata or Diogenes of Oinoanda or even Diogenes Laertius -- as someone whose philosophy is uniquely valuable and worthy of focus on its own. Providing such a place is the goal of this forum and while disagreements about that goal might be temporarily unpleasant, I am firmly convinced that everyone profits by our firmly standing by that goal.

Quote from Lucian of Samosata, Alexander the Oracle-Monger 61

"I was still more concerned (a preference which you may be far from resenting) to strike a blow for Epicurus, that great man whose holiness and divinity of nature were not shams, who alone had and imparted true insight into the good, and who brought deliverance to all that consorted with him."

I just noticed that we have the following two forums ("Ethics - How To Live as An Epicurean" and "Applications For Day To Day Living") which probably should be consolidated into one, so we'll do that in the very near future. When posting, the General Discussion section is always acceptable for day-to-day general developments, and we can re-file to subforums later if needed. However many of the substantive posts our regulars make will fit into one of the three categories "Physics," "Canonics," or "Ethics." These cover very wide areas, so when you are posting and your topic fits into one of those three, please consider posting in the the "general" section of one of those three topics. Most people coming to the forum should expect to understand that Physics, Ethics, and Canonics are the way things are generally divided, and posting in this way will help those who are first focused on only one of the three to find what they are looking for.

Good point as to the context of the statement in the letter to Herodotus. The word "simple" has a huge number of connotations and it would be good (as stated in the first post) to flesh out which ones are and are not relevant to Epicurus. I think a lot of people tend to associate the word first and foremost with something rhyming with ascetic, but that's not at all the only option. Dictionary.com

adjective

simpler, simplest.

1. easy to understand, deal with, use, etc.: simple tools.

   a simple matter;

   simple tools.

   Synonyms: lucid, unmistakable, understandable, intelligible, clear

2. not elaborate or artificial; plain:

   a simple style.

   Synonyms: unembellished, neat, natural

3. not ornate or luxurious; unadorned:

   a simple gown.

4. unaffected; unassuming; modest:

   a simple manner.

5. not complicated:

   a simple design.

6. not complex or compound; single

7. occurring or considered alone; mere; bare:

   the simple truth;

   a simple fact.

8. free of deceit or guile; sincere; unconditional:

   a frank, simple answer.

   Synonyms: ingenuous, guileless, artless

9. common or ordinary:

   a simple soldier.

10. not grand or sophisticated; unpretentious:

    a simple way of life.

11. humble or lowly:

    simple folk.

12. inconsequential or rudimentary.

    Synonyms: unnecessary, nonessential, trivial, trifling

13. unlearned; ignorant.

    Synonyms: stupid, untutored

14. lacking mental acuteness or sense:

    a simple way of thinking.

15. unsophisticated; naive; credulous.
16. simpleminded.
17. Chemistry.

    1. composed of only one substance or element:

       a simple substance.

    2. not mixed.

18. Botany. not divided into parts: a simple stem.

    a simple leaf;

    a simple stem.

19. Zoology. not compound:

    a simple ascidian.

20. Music. uncompounded or without overtones; single:

    simple tone.

21. Grammar. having only the head without modifying elements included: Compare complete ( def 5 ).

    The simple subject of “The dappled pony gazed over the fence” is “pony.”

22. (of a verb tense) consisting of a main verb with no auxiliaries, as takes (simple present) or stood (simple past) ( compound ).
23. Mathematics. linear ( def 8 ).
24. Optics. (of a lens) having two optical surfaces only.

Our main plan for 2025 will be to continue on the same track we are on as to maintenance of the Forum, Lucretius Today Podcast, Wednesday Meetings, Twentieth Commemorations, and special projects like our recent Livestream. As to the livestream in particular, I want to see those done regularly, probably in an easier-to-do format. I also want 2025 to be the year we make more progress in getting a self-paced learning program off the ground at http://www.epicuruscollege.com.

Beyond that - and other than the general desirability of more of the same, does anyone have other suggestions or ideas that they would like us to consider pursuing here at EpicureanFriends?

Consider this a general feedback / suggestion thread, almost as a "wish list" of things you would like to see us pursue in 2025. Can't promise that we can get to all of them, but we know we'll miss 100% of the targets we don't identify.

So if you have suggestions you'd like us to consider, please post in this thread.

In preparation for this coming weekend's recording of episode 265, I thought I would see if anyone had any suggestions for texts to include on the specific topic of the competition between virtue and pleasure for the title of "highest good."

While the letter to Menoeceus and the Principle Doctrines (for example, PD05) mention specific virtues like justice and honor and wisdom, I am looking for texts that specifically contrast the competition between "virtue" as a category vs "pleasure" as a category for the top role.

Diogenes Laertius' inscription contains the "shouting" fragment that the end of life is pleasure and not virtue, and Torquatus goes on at length about this precise competition.

I think one of the Jefferson letters makes the specific point too.

Those give us most of the material we need, but if anyone remembers anything else referencing virtue vs pleasure on the category level that we should be sure to include, please add to this thread.

There's lots of material in praise of pleasure from which we can choose as needed, and many references to particular virtues like justice. But if anyone remembers any specific comparisons of pleasure vs virtue in any of the secondary literature (other works of Cicero, works of Plutarch, or Philodemus, etc,) please post in the thread and i will add it to the discussion outline here.

Thanks!

We speak frequently about translating words from the Greek, but much less frequently about Greek numbering. This subject came up in tonight's Wednesday Zoom meeting and Bryan has graciously forwarded me the information below about how the Greeks recorded numbers. All of us know the Arabic system and most of us know some Roman numerals, but this is to start a thread on the Greek numbering system. I am not at first thought able to name any immediate philosophical implications of how the Greeks counted, but I bet there are some. Thanks again to Bryan for this material:

The Greek system seems simple compared to what the Romans were doing. It is closer to our decimal system, although still more rigid.

Wow yes great video! I didn't see the scene you're referring to where the top of the mountain was reconstructed but I gather there is at least one fresco showing the top of the mountain to be MUCH taller!

Episode 264 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available: "Bread and Water??!! Debunking The Myth Of Epicurean Asceticism." For a slideshow version of this talk, click the "Featured Videos" link on our home page.

I hope you'll keep notes and eventually find time to prepare something on some of these physics issues Bryan. I just posted Don's "Bread and Water" as a separate podcast episode and I think a shorter focused talk format works very well - as it would for some focused physics issues.