Best Translation of PD05 To Feature At EpicureanFriends.com

    The following post is one of a series so that we can get our collection of the main list of Principal Doctrines under the "Texts" section in better shape. Although this thread will include a "poll" in the next post, what we are really looking for is the "best" combination of faithfulness to the original combined with clarity in modern English. I will get with a collection of the Level 3 participants here to work on editing the final list, but the full discussion should be open to everyone to consider, so that's what we will do here. The results of the poll won't control what is featured on the text page but will definitely influence in and probably at least result in a footnote to this thread.


    The English translation of PD05 currently featured here in our Texts section is that of Cyril Bailey from his Extant Remains:


    It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently, honorably, and justly, [nor again to live a life of prudence, honor, and justice] without living pleasantly. And the man who does not possess the pleasant life is not living prudently, honorably, and justly, [and the man who does not possess the virtuous life] cannot possibly live pleasantly." Epicurus PD05 (Bailey)


    **ΟΥΚ EΣTΙΝ ΗΔEΩΣ ΖΗΝ ****AΝEΥ TΟΥ ΦΡΟΝΙΜΩΣ ****ΚAΙ ΚAΛΩΣ**

    **ΚAΙ ΔΙΚAΙΩΣ ****[ΟΥΔE ΦΡΟΝΙΜΩΣ ****ΚAΙ ΚAΛΩΣ ****ΚAΙ ΔΙΚAΙΩΣ] **

    **AΝEΥ TΟΥ ΗΔEΩΣ·**** ΟTῼ Δ' EN TΟΥTΩN ΜΗ ΥΠAΡΧEΙ ****ΟION**

    **ΖΗΝ ΦΡΟΝΙΜΩΣ ****KAI ΚAΛΩΣ ****KAI ΔΙΚAΙΩΣ ΥΠAΡΧEΙ ****OΥΧ**

    **EΣTΙ TΟΥTΟΝ ΗΔEΩΣ ΖΗΝ. **


    “It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently, and honourably, and justly; nor to live prudently, and honourably, and justly, without living pleasantly. But to whom it does not happen to live prudently, honourably, and justly cannot possibly live pleasantly.” Yonge (1853)


    “It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living pleasantly. Whenever any one of these is lacking, when, for instance, the man does not live wisely, though he lives well and justly, it is impossible for him to live a pleasant life.” Hicks (1910)


    “It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living pleasantly. Whenever any one of these is lacking, when, for instance, the man is not able to live wisely, though he lives well and justly, it is impossible for him to live a pleasant life.” Hicks (1925)


    “It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently and honourably and justly, [nor again to live a life of prudence, honour, and justice] without living pleasantly. And the man who does not possess the pleasant life, is not living prudently and honourably and justly, [and the man who does not possess the virtuous life], cannot possibly live pleasantly.” Bailey (1926)


    “It is impossible to live pleasurably without living according to reason, honor and justice, nor to live according to reason, honor, and justice without living pleasurably….” DeWitt, Epicurus and His Philosophy 184, 246 (1954)


    “It is impossible to live pleasantly without living prudently, well, and justly, (and to live prudently, well, and justly) without living pleasantly. Even though a man live well and justly, it is not possible for him to live pleasantly if he lacks that from which stems the prudent life.” Geer (1964)


    “It is impossible to live a pleasantly without living prudently, well, and justly, nor is it possible to live prudently, well, and justly without living pleasantly. The man for whom this latter condition is impossible cannot live prudently, well, or justly; he for whom the former is impossible, cannot live pleasantly.” O'Connor (1993)


    “It is impossible to live pleasantly without living prudently, honourably, and justly and impossible to live prudently, honourably, and justly without living pleasantly. And whoever lacks this cannot live pleasantly.” Inwood & Gerson (1994)


    “It is impossible to live pleasantly without living wisely and honorably and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and honorably and justly without living pleasantly. Whenever any one of these is lacking (when, for instance, one is not able to live wisely, though he lives honorably and justly) it is impossible for him to live a pleasant life.” Anderson (2004)


    “It is impossible to lead a pleasant life without leading a life that is prudent, proper, and just. Nor is it possible to live a life that is prudent, proper, and just without living a life that is pleasant. Whoever lacks [any one of] the above [elements of a good and pleasant life] cannot have a good life.” Makridis (2005)


    “It is not possible to live joyously without also living wisely and beautifully and rightly, nor to live wisely and beautifully and rightly without living joyously; and whoever lacks this cannot live joyously.” Saint-Andre (2008)


    “It is impossible to live the pleasant life without also living sensibly, nobly, and justly, and conversely it is impossible to live sensibly, nobly, and justly without living pleasantly. A person who does not have a pleasant life is not living sensibly, nobly, and justly, and conversely the person who does not have these virtues cannot live pleasantly.” Strodach (2012)


    “It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently, honorably, and justly; nor can one live prudently, honorably, and justly without living pleasantly. Nor is it possible for the man who does not live prudently, though he may live honorably and justly, to live pleasantly.” Mensch (2018)


    “It is not possible to live pleasantly without living wisely, honorably, and justly, [nor wisely, honorably, and justly] without living pleasantly; and for anyone who does not have that, {does not live wisely, honorably, and justly, does not have,} it is not possible for him to live pleasantly.” White (2021)


    ---


    Which of the above, or which with changes you would suggest, should be featured here in the main list? In the interest of space the poll will not include every option, so please add a comment in the thread if you would suggest a variation not listed.

    Which is the best translation to feature at EpicureanFriends.com? 0

    1. Bailey - It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently, honorably, and justly, [nor again to live a life of prudence, honor, and justice] without living pleasantly. And the man who does not possess the pleasant life is not living pruden (0) 0%
    2. Yonge - “It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently, and honourably, and justly; nor to live prudently, and honourably, and justly, without living pleasantly. But to whom it does not happen to live prudently, honourably, and justly can (0) 0%
    3. Hicks: “It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living pleasantly. Whenever any one of these is lacking, when, for instance, the man does not live (0) 0%
    4. Geer - “It is impossible to live pleasantly without living prudently, well, and justly, (and to live prudently, well, and justly) without living pleasantly. Even though a man live well and justly, it is not possible for him to live pleasantly if he lacks (0) 0%
    5. Inwood & Gerson - “It is impossible to live pleasantly without living prudently, honourably, and justly and impossible to live prudently, honourably, and justly without living pleasantly. And whoever lacks this cannot live pleasantly.” (0) 0%

    Which is the best translation to feature at EpicureanFriends.com?

    LOL! "Literally" ^^ Neither the manuscripts, even the best ones, nor Diogenes of O. can agree on the exact wording of this text. This'll be a good one to pull together some of what I'm finding in the various sources. This one in particular is a mess! I'll try to post this evening. For now, consider this a teaser :)

    The words that evoke a negative response in my mind are:

    - "proper" (Makridis)

    - "rightly" (St.-Andre)

    - "nobly" (Strodach)

    For me, these words sound Aristotlean in that they imply some sort approved standard to abide by.

    Quote from Godfrey

    The words that evoke a negative response in my mind are:

    - "proper" (Makridis)

    - "rightly" (St.-Andre)

    - "nobly" (Strodach)

    For me, these words sound Aristotlean in that they imply some sort approved standard to abide by.

    They all translate καλώς (kalōs) and ALL are legitimate translations of that slippery word.


    Woodhouse, S. C. (1910) English–Greek Dictionary: A Vocabulary of the Attic Language‎[1], London: Routledge & Kegan Paul Limited.


    Synonyms for kalos include:


    admirable idem, page 12.


    artistic idem, page 42.


    auspicious idem, page 53.


    beautiful idem, page 68.


    buxom idem, page 107.


    capital idem, page 111.


    comely idem, page 145.


    creditable idem, page 183.


    elegant idem, page 265.


    estimable idem, page 283.


    excellent idem, page 288.


    exquisite idem, page 296.


    fair idem, page 302.


    favourable idem, page 311.


    fine idem, page 321.


    fortunate idem, page 340.


    good idem, page 366.


    goodly idem, page 367.


    handsome idem, page 383.


    happy idem, page 384.


    high-principled idem, page 400.


    honourable idem, page 405.


    hopeful idem, page 405.


    lovely idem, page 502.


    lucky idem, page 504.


    noble idem, page 559.


    ornamental idem, page 580.


    picturesque idem, page 611.


    plausible idem, page 618.


    pomantic idem, page 625.


    principled idem, page 641.


    promising idem, page 653.


    propitious idem, page 653.


    reputable idem, page 699.


    righteous idem, page 715.


    skilful idem, page 780.


    specious idem, page 799.


    spruce idem, page 806.


    virtuous idem, page 954.


    well-favoured idem, page 974

    “It is not possible to live pleasantly without [living] practically and properly and peacefully, <nor practically and properly and peacefully> without [living] pleasantly; but one who does not take this sort of initiative to live practically, and properly and peacefully, cannot live pleasantly.”


    That is my take on it after some digestion and deconstruction.

    Quote from Nate

    “It is not possible to live pleasantly without [living] practically and properly and peacefully, <nor practically and properly and peacefully> without [living] pleasantly; but one who does not take this sort of initiative to live practically, and properly and peacefully, cannot live pleasantly.”


    That is my take on it after some digestion and deconstruction.

    I like the alliteration but to which words are you pegging practically, properly and peacefully.

    My take is:

    practically φρονιμως?

    properly καλως?

    peacefully δικαιως?

    I understand the sentiment but not sure I fully concur with the translation.... Unless you're going for a functional/dynamic translation rather than a formal/literal.

    You'e got it. Among others, this doctrine is BEGGING for consonance.


    I take φρονιμως as "practically", though "prudently" would be equally if not more appropriate

    I sort of dislike the idea of καλως because I just haven't been able to digest the idea well. What is "beautiful" that is not also "prudent"? What is "beautiful" which is not also "just"? Surely we are not talking about "physical arousal at the human form", but rather some sort of "appropriate manner in which a lifestyle is lived", so "properly" is what I take. Still, I don't quite like "properly" because it's sounds sort of ... eh ... it's the best word that I've found to translate καλως. Even given my self-imposed "P"-consonance, I think "properly" (so far) best expresses the idea of "living excellently".


    I want to break "justice" as δικαιως down into a familiar idea. Some read "justice" and think "The Second Coming" and "Sinners in Hell". Some read "justice" as "The Thin Blue Line". Neither is appropriate. So, I want to employ a more familiar word that expresses Epicurean Justice, which, fundamentally, is a peaceful agreement between people.

    Edited once, last by Nate ().

    Like 1 Thanks 1
    Quote from Don
    Quote from Nate

    I understand the sentiment but not sure I fully concur with the translation.... Unless you're going for a functional/dynamic translation rather than a formal/literal.

    In general, my intention is more (as you describe elsewhere) a functional/dynamic interpretation. My attitude is, if someone wants a 1:1 transliteration ... just learn ancient Greek. καλως is only truly accurate as καλως.

    Thanks, Nate, for the insight into your creative process.

    Quote from Nate

    You'e got it. Among others, this doctrine is BEGGING for consonance.

    I agree, from a purely poetic perspective (to carry on the consonance :-)). Just to be clear to everyone, there is no alliteration in the original and the -os ending of kalos, dikaios, phronimos is due to Greek case endings. That's not to say Epicurus (or the Epicurean author) didn't like the way they sounded together, but it would have happened anyway with those endings.

    You're almost required to use "pleasurably" as well and stick to p-consonance. I've seen enjoyably or happily or that sort of this, but with hedeos, bringing out the "pleasurably" seems paramount.

    Quote from Nate

    I take φρονιμως as "practically", though "prudently" would be equally if not more appropriate

    Prudently has the problem of being perceived as Victorian, although I like it better from a semantic perspective. "Practically" works from "practical wisdom."

    Quote from Nate

    I sort of dislike the idea of καλως because I just haven't been able to digest the idea well. What is "beautiful" that is not also "prudent"? What is "beautiful" which is not also "just"? Surely we are not talking about "physical arousal at the human form", but rather some sort of "appropriate manner in which a lifestyle is lived", so "properly" is what I take. Still, I don't quite like "properly" because it's sounds sort of ... eh ... it's the best word that I've found to translate καλως. Even given my self-imposed "P"-consonance, I think "properly" (so far) best expresses the idea of "living excellently".

    Kalos is SUCH a catch-all term for all things proper, noble, excellent. Strong's defines the usage as "beautiful, as an outward sign of the inward good, noble, honorable character; good, worthy, honorable, noble, and seen to be so." If "principled" had an adverbial form, that might work. So, yeah, "properly" is probably the proper possibility.

    Quote from Nate

    I want to break "justice" as δικαιως down into a familiar idea. Some read "justice" and think "The Second Coming" and "Sinners in Hell". Some read "justice" as "The Thin Blue Line". Neither is appropriate. So, I want to employ a more familiar word that expresses Epicurean Justice, which, fundamentally, is a peaceful agreement between people.

    This is the one I'm having problems processing. To me, Epicurean justice has to do with fairness, not harming others, but making sure to take measures where others don't willfully harm you. We treat others properly.. but that's already being used. Politely doesn't seem strong enough. Maybe peaceably instead of peacefully? I'm going to have to ponder this one before I'm all in.


    All that being said, I think you have a good dynamic translation... and I fully understand your

    Quote from Nate

    if someone wants a 1:1 transliteration ... just learn ancient Greek. καλως is only truly accurate as καλως.

    ^^

    Quote from Don

    This is the one I'm having problems processing. To me, Epicurean justice has to do with fairness, not harming others, but making sure to take measures where others don't willfully harm you. We treat others properly.. but that's already being used. Politely doesn't seem strong enough. Maybe peaceably instead of peacefully? I'm going to have to ponder this one before I'm all in.

    This is a great observation. I think I might be making a semantic mistake if "peacefully" implies pure pacifism, because part of the agreement to not harm also includes a prevention against "being harmed", and that might imply force. I think I'll take your suggestion of "peaceably" because it lessens the risk of being interpreted as pacifism.

    Quote from Nate

    This is a great observation. I think I might be making a semantic mistake if "peacefully" implies pure pacifism, because part of the agreement to not harm also includes a prevention against "being harmed", and that might imply force. I think I'll take your suggestion of "peaceably" because it lessens the risk of being interpreted as pacifism.

    Probably neither peacefully nor peaceably should really out of limits -- most of our "officers of the peace" and similar terms still carry guns - but the issue of if / when / under what circumstances it is proper to initiate force is so divisive that it makes sense to avoid ambiguity on this point if at all possible.


    Seems to me one of the most clear statements (though like them all it would be prudent to parse the original latin to check the word "restraint."


    On Ends 2 / XVI --


    Yet nevertheless some men indulge without limit their avarice, ambition and love of power, lust, gluttony and those other desires, which ill-gotten gains can never diminish but rather must inflame the more; inasmuch that they appear proper subjects for restraint rather than for reformation. Men of sound natures, therefore, are summoned by the voice of true reason to justice, equity, and honesty. For one without eloquence or resources dishonesty is not good policy, since it is difficult for such a man to succeed in his designs, or to make good his success when once achieved.