Great idea and looking forward to seeing it developed - but at first look it's already a great start!

Wow! Nate, That is a big collection of "Epicurean verses" and I can imagine that this took a lot of work to compile.

I had some feelings/reactions come up as I did a quick skim of it. And my feelings probably are due to the time that I spent studying "Compassionate Communication" also called Nonviolent Communication -- NVC, by Marshall Rosenberg. Within NVC, it deals directly with why feelings arise in the first place, and then when we clearly understand a given situation we can more effectively make choices and take action. The actions we take are not to just get rid of a feeling (such as just to remove the symptom) but to address the root cause of a feeling -- and to make changes which lead to more pleasure and happiness in life.

It is very interesting to see the verses, and how they might tie in together with emotions and feelings. But I do wonder if this is really effective for helping people? How many of these verses actually help with the root causes of feelings and emotions? How many of these verses help with making the best "choices and avoidances" without "guilting" someone, but instead inviting someone to see the truth on their own terms? I would really need to read through much more closely to evaluate each one.

Perhaps a slightly different formating could make it work for some of the material which helps deal with root causes.

To illustrate further, I would only trust something which has a feeling of compassion toward feelings and emotions, and not an authoritarian tone of "right/wrong" -- if there is even the slightest sense of something suggesting: "Shut up and stop crying" then I would not use it even if purported to be said by Epicurus.

Here is an overview of how NVC suggests dealing with anger:

Quote

Nonviolent Communication for Anger

“The cause of anger lies in our thinking – in thoughts of blame and judgment.”

– Marshall B. Rosenberg, PhD.

Many people want to know how to use Nonviolent Communication for anger because it can be such a scary emotion for so many people. Feeling it, expressing it — and being on the receiving end of it — can be extremely unsettling!

Nonviolent Communication (NVC) helps us navigate anger in a holistic way. Using NVC for anger is a healthy and empowering way to rewire our responses to this powerful emotion.

Because anger is so often associated with violence, it’s common for people to avoid anger — as they might avoid conflict — out of their need for safety.

But anger itself is simply an emotion.

How we choose to handle it — including how we hold it within ourselves and how we express it — can make all the difference.

Just as importantly, how we handle another person’s anger, especially when it is directed toward us, can also make the difference between conflict and connection. Let’s take a deeper look at how Nonviolent Communication for anger works with our internal dialogues….

Healthy Ways to Handle Anger Inside Ourselves

Nonviolent Communication gives us healthy ways to handle anger inside ourselves.

Employing Nonviolent Communication for anger first requires acknowledging that this is an incredibly powerful emotion, and that we probably need to find more healthy ways to handle it inside ourselves.

One of the main challenges to finding healthy ways to deal with anger inside ourselves is that by the time anger arises we have usually already lost control.

By using Nonviolent Communication for anger, we rewire our capacity and skills for handling anger constructively. At first, our attention centers on how soon we can recover from an anger episode, and with what intention and how soon do we engage in any necessary relationship repair and clean-up.

As we cultivate healthy ways to handle our anger, we begin to catch it sooner. We start to notice subtle shifts and changes before we’ve erupted in anger! We can notice where we’ve made an assumption or an interpretation that in the past would have led to us feeling angry. This helps us calm down and deconstruct the story that has led to anger. It also gives us the opportunity to question it or check it out with others, before lashing out in anger.

As we cultivate healthy ways to handle anger inside ourselves, we begin to discern the deeper Universal Human Needs and values that underlie an expression of anger. Once a person has connected with their own (and/or others’) underlying needs and values, what we find is that the emotion shifts. At that point it’s usually not anger anymore. The shift from right/wrong thinking to connection with the underlying needs or values comes with a shift in the feeling which now might be frustration or sorrow, but no longer anger.

When we connect with our feelings and needs, and we allow our feelings to flow in a space of presence, healing begins to happen. At this point, we are getting closer to a place of mourning, forgiveness, and self-forgiveness.

Content by PuddleDancer Press. Use of content okay with attribution. Please visit www.nonviolentcommunication.com to learn more about Nonviolent Communication.

Display More

Quote

Healthy Ways to Deal with Anger from Other People

Learning healthy ways to handle anger inside ourselves is only one part of how Nonviolent Communication and anger relate. Another part involves learning healthy ways to deal with anger from other people. Being on the receiving end of anger can be incredibly scary for reasons of our emotional, mental, and physical safety.

In these situations, besides high-level NVC skills, we want reassurance that we will be safe. (See the distinction between protective and punitive use of force.)

If we are certain of our physical safety, sometimes another’s anger is disconcerting for other reasons:

They have judgments of us which are hard to hear and/or,

We are taking responsibility for their feelings, telling ourselves that we made this person feel bad, and/or,

We’re concerned about some damage to an important relationship, as well as all that that can mean and imply.

The tools of NVC come in handy when cultivating healthy ways to deal with anger from other people. These tools include self-empathy, empathy toward others, and the ability to express truthfully or authentically with the intention to create a connection and refraining from using words that would cause more harm.

Imagine working on anger — your own or receiving others’ — to the point where you felt safe and comfortable around it, and knew how to handle it confidently and effectively, able to defuse conflicts and guide them toward more connection!

How does this look in an everyday context?

Let’s consult Dr. Marshall Rosenberg on NVC and anger to find out….

Dr. Marshall Rosenberg on NVC for Anger

Dr. Marshall Rosenberg, Ph.D. had revolutionary insight on the relationship between NVC and anger. According to Dr. Rosenberg, anger means we are disconnected from our needs. He taught us that anger is one of the four emotions that are disconnected from needs because of what we are telling ourselves. (The other three are shame, guilt, and depression).

In a practical context, these are the types of questions we can ask ourselves to see if we are progressing on using NVC for anger:

When someone speaks to me in anger, do I stay self-connected? Can I give myself self-empathy rather than judge them back or blame myself?

When someone speaks to me in anger, how soon does my attention go to what their needs might be? Am I able to give them empathic presence (perhaps after giving myself self-empathy) rather than judge them back or blame myself?

When someone speaks to me in anger, to what degree am I able to hang in there with the conversation? Am I able to express my honesty from the heart, my feelings and my needs — perhaps in addition to empathic presence, possibly with moments of self-empathy throughout — rather than judge them, blame myself, lash out, disconnect, or rush to a solution for short term relief?

To what extent can I hang in there in a tough conversation for the possibility of deeper connection and a mutually satisfying outcome?

If I notice we’re both angry, and both want to be heard at the same time, can I call a time-out in a way that we can get support in order to come back to the conversation?

With NVC for anger, we also learn how to own the causes and express anger fully. This means deconstructing the story we have and getting to the underlying needs. When we do this we can express what we value and cherish — rather than focusing on our judgments of others or becoming entrenched in who was right or wrong. In this way, NVC for anger helps us shift the feeling of anger to other, more life-connected feelings.

Content by PuddleDancer Press. Use of content okay with attribution. Please visit www.nonviolentcommunication.com to learn more about Nonviolent Communication.

Display More

Nonviolent Communication for Anger - PuddleDancer Press

There are great benefits of Nonviolent Communication for anger. NVC helps us handle this powerful emotion inside ourselves and with others in a healthy way

www.nonviolentcommunication.com

I want to hear lots of perspectives on what Kalosyni just wrote from NVC, but I have one already:

Quote

“The cause of anger lies in our thinking – in thoughts of blame and judgment.”

– Marshall B. Rosenberg, PhD.

If that is supposed to mean that I should view anger as something to eliminate, I don't want to do that and I don't think Epicurus did either. I want to be sure my anger is directed at the proper objects, and then I want to work as hard as I can to resolve that problem clearly and directly, even if the other person or people disagree. Where warranted, you act forcedly and even angrily because the goal of life is not suppression of anger, or any other kind of pain, as an end in itself, but only toward the highest goal, which is living pleasurably. Everything is always judged by consequences, not by a priori commitment to any virtue - not even "nonviolence."

So at a very basic level I don't think Epicurus has any problem with "violence" or any other tool that is necessary under the circumstances to live pleasurably.

I see that entailed as far up in the PDs as PD06.

"Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good."

Quote from Kalosyni

To illustrate further, I would only trust something which has a feeling of compassion toward feelings and emotions, and not an authoritarian tone of "right/wrong" -- if there is even the slightest sense of something suggesting: "Shut up and stop crying" then I would not use it even if purported to be said by Epicurus.

On second reading, I am now thinking that Kalosyni's issue is not so much with Nate's formatting as it is with Epicurus' content

I think it would be very helpful for Nate's compilation and for our understanding to pick out any of the cites that are included that seem problematic and then we deal with each one.

All probably in the context of Diogenes Laertius writing that Epicurus said that the wise man will"dogmatized" and not perpetually be in doubt.

Quote from Cassius

I want to be sure my anger is directed at the proper objects, and then I want to work as hard as I can to resolve that problem clearly and directly, even if the other person or people disagree.

Exactly! And so understanding the difference between protective use of force vs punitive use of force is very important, and will lead to better future outcomes.

Quote

Protective use of force vs. Punitive use of force

Protective vs. punitive use of force (difference is in intention) protective force's intention protects from injuries or accidents or misuse of someone's rights and or loss of life. Punitive use of force has an intention to change the other person through punishment or reward, to teach how they "should" do.

...If the intention is only to protect my own need, then it’s justified. That’s the only time force is justified. I must have no desire to make the other person suffer.

https://en.nvcwiki.com/index.p…vs._Punitive_use_of_force

Display More

And this would support: "Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good."

Quote from Cassius

On second reading, I am now thinking that Kalosyni's issue is not so much with Nate's formatting as it is with Epicurus' content

In this type of document things could be "taken out of context" (how many Christian preachers do this with the Bible?).

And we don't know in what manner Epicurus taught. All we have is what later people (after Epicurus) copied or wrote down, and it is impossible to rule out that they "re-interpreted" things.

Diogenes Laertius lived in the 3rd Century CE (Wikipedia)

Epicurus lived in 341 - 270 BCE -- here is a link to a graphic timeline comparing several other historical figures who wrote on Epicurean philosophy.

So...we must understand the foundations of Epicurean philosophy and then everything must be viewed in light of the very basic foundations -- and ask this: "Does it lead to pleasure, joy and happiness?"

Nate, as I look over it some more:

1. my concern continues to be that these will end up dealing with "symptoms" and not "causes" of feelings and emotions. Also, you'll want to have your sense of anger working correctly, so it is there for you when you need it, and you should not be trying to tamp it down. So a truly emotionally healthy person will feel a rainbow of feelings and emotions, but they will not be perplexed, overwhelmed by, or stuck in their feelings/emotions. There will be a healthy flow. And healthy anger when it does arise won't be a big blowout, but a recognition of bodily feelings. And so...We need not the appearance of health but actual true health (VS54)

2. Verses taken out of context: -- the first listing under "persecuted" from Letter to Menoeceus; -- VS62 under "anger" is specifically between parents and children (perhaps there are others).

3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.

Quote from Kalosyni

3. Some of words you use as "feelings" are in actuality evaluations/judgements and not feelings/emotions -- insecure, rejected, persecuted, injured, poor, weak.

Quote

Feelings: emotions or sensations, free of thought and story. These are to be distinguished from thoughts (e.g., “I feel I didn’t get a fair deal”) and from words colloquially used as feelings but which convey what we think we are (e.g., “inadequate”), how we think others are evaluating us (e.g., “unimportant”), or what we think others are doing to us (e.g., “misunderstood”, “ignored”).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication

You can read all about "faux feelings" here:

Faux Feelings – Making Life More Wonderful

Ok I am still not sure which particular passages you think are apt to misinterpretation. Could you begin to list some and we go through them? Maybe what you are saying is that such a list would be better with commentary.

Nate I think you are right that Kalosyni's comment are calling up what you are saying: There are different levels of "absoluteness" going on here.

In physics, as in the letter to Herodotus, we are being "absolute" -- NOTHING exists eternally the same except atoms and void. That doesn't change for anyone no matter what their circumstances. Implicitly death is the same way - we all die.

But in the letter to Pythocles Epicurus points out that we don't have clear vision at a distance, so in regard to taking opinions about the skies and stars we have to keep open multiple possibilities if all of them comport with the evidence and none are contradicted.

Then further in distinction to physics, where we are at times talking about unchanging properties and sometimes talking about emergent qualities, in ethics questions of "how to live among other people" was are ALWAYS talking about emergent and changing qualities, and ALL our statements are contextual. This section of the Fish article "Not All Politicians Are Sysiphus" points that out very well I think (underlined section):

This kind of contextual nature is probably a good idea to add to sort of an introduction, and then discuss in relation to each quote to develop the context.

I suggest that, of course, only for consideration when you have unlimited time, because you've already sunk a lot of time into the collection, and context will determine how much more time makes sense and how to spend it!

I REALLY like that last underlined sentence, and I think we need to find ways to highlight that on the forum:

Quote

The Epicureans had advice for both kinds of people, and a method of evaluating options that promised to maximize happiness whatever the relevant circumstances.

The only way it appears to me to make that sentence better would be to generalize it by saying "ALL" instead of "BOTH."

or maybe for our current usage:

"The Epicureans have advice for all kinds of people, and a method of evaluating options that promises to maximize happiness whatever the relevant circumstances."

Quote from Nate

His sweetest quote on pain management is useful to me in acknowledging the power of remembrance,

Yes, and everyone will have varying results in how they understand and use Epicurean ephorisms, so it could be a very individualized process. Perhaps everyone should make their own collection of what they find helpful, as an exercise and to assist in learning.

As for myself...there is now so much on the internet. And all I have to do is type in whatever problem I am encountering and then lots of practical advice comes up for me on various websites. I even can recommend Wikipedia, when I looked up the word "frustration".

Quote

In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition, related to anger, annoyance and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual's will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked.^[1][2][3] There are two types of frustration: internal and external. Internal frustration may arise from challenges in fulfilling personal goals, desires, instinctual drives and needs, or dealing with perceived deficiencies, such as a lack of confidence or fear of social situations. Conflict, such as when one has competing goals that interfere with one another, can also be an internal source of frustration or annoyance and can create cognitive dissonance. External causes of frustration involve conditions outside an individual's control, such as a physical roadblock, a difficult task, or the perception of wasting time.^[4] There are multiple ways individuals cope with frustration

Frustration - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Coping - Wikipedia

Quote from Nate

As an Epicurean, I recommend taking Epicurus' advice over Wikipedia's.

Good point! And also I think Cassius would say a certified therapist would be recommended for really difficult problems, since there are limits to Epicurean philosophy, and it is not a therapy, and thus cannot take the place of a certified therapist.

Quote from Kalosyni

a certified therapist would be recommended for really difficult problems, since there are limits to Epicurean philosophy, and it is not a therapy, and thus cannot take the place of a certified therapist.

Ha the way that is worded makes me want to confirm also that "there are limits to certified therapy, and therapy is not a philosophy, and that cannot take the place of Epicurean philosophy."

If someone truly needs medical assistance then they definitely need clinical therapy. But I would ultimately judge the success of clinical therapy according to philosophy, rather than the success of philosophy by clinical therapy.

For example see "Philosophical concerns with CBT methods"

Cognitive behavioral therapy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thanks Cassius for pointing that out, and this interesting quote:

Quote

The methods employed in CBT research have not been the only criticisms; some individuals have called its theory and therapy into question.^[225]

Slife and Williams write that one of the hidden assumptions in CBT is that of determinism, or the absence of free will. They argue that CBT holds that external stimuli from the environment enter the mind, causing different thoughts that cause emotional states: nowhere in CBT theory is agency, or free will, accounted for.^[215]

Another criticism of CBT theory, especially as applied to major depressive disorder (MDD), is that it confounds the symptoms of the disorder with its causes.^[218]

It would be good to evaluate any of the Epicurean verses in light of two factors:

1) Does this Epicurean verse allow me to see and exercise my free will, and does it help me see that I have multiple options for solving problems in my life?

2) Does this Epicurean verse confound (confuse or mix up) the symptoms (my feelings/emotions) with the causes? (Try to get rid of symptoms without understanding the causes).

Yes I agree that is a good test. I would say that any saying which might arguably be interpreted as leaning in a flat "commandment" direction (and I am not sure there are really any at all) would appear to do so (if they do) only by virtue of lacking context from the original setting.

For example "live unknown" as a flat statement would appear to be a flat "commandment" that on its face would override any other consideration. However we know both (1) from the wider view of the philosophy that Epicurus did not work that way - as if context did not matter, and (2) we don't have the full context of a statement from Epicurus himself actually saying that.

There are good references and arguments in support of this observation -- of how the ethical doctrines are contextual -- in the article recently posted here from Jeffrey Fish - (Not All Politicians Are Sisyphus).