1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Site Map
    7. Quizzes
    8. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    9. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Uncategorized Forum
    4. Physics Discussion
    5. Canonics Discussion
    6. Ethics Discussion
    7. Study Resources Discussion
    8. Ancient Texts Discussion
    9. Level 3+
    10. Shortcuts
    11. Featured
  4. New
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Site Map
    7. Quizzes
    8. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    9. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Uncategorized Forum
    4. Physics Discussion
    5. Canonics Discussion
    6. Ethics Discussion
    7. Study Resources Discussion
    8. Ancient Texts Discussion
    9. Level 3+
    10. Shortcuts
    11. Featured
  4. New
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Site Map
    7. Quizzes
    8. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    9. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Uncategorized Forum
    4. Physics Discussion
    5. Canonics Discussion
    6. Ethics Discussion
    7. Study Resources Discussion
    8. Ancient Texts Discussion
    9. Level 3+
    10. Shortcuts
    11. Featured
  4. New
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Epicurean Texts
  4. Philodemus - Texts and Fragments
  5. Philodemus On Poems
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Introduction---Joshua's Notes on "The Good Poem According to Philodemus", by Michael McOsker

  • Joshua
  • February 7, 2022 at 10:47 PM
  • Go to last post
Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Joshua
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    15,010
    Posts
    1,902
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    95.8 %
    • February 7, 2022 at 10:47 PM
    • #1

    Introduction:

    It's high time I got my nose in to the Philodemus material--and what better subject for me to begin with than poetry!

    I do not have (and am not likely to read) Philodemus' five books On Poetry themselves--the difficulties with the Herculaneum papyri are quite staggering, and that work (under the heading of the Philodemus Translation Series) is still being published in several expensive volumes--but I am delighted to be going through Dr. Michael McOsker's recently-published and expanded dissertation on the same subject. His advisor in this work was Dr. Richard Janko, one translator of those books by Philodemus I mentioned a moment ago.

    As Don has done us good service in his chapter-by-chapter review of "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt, I decided to follow the same formula.

    Notes:


    -There is a short preface; the author notes that On Poetry is one of the two most studied works in Herculaneum, alongside Epicurus' On Nature. He mentions the love of classicists for poetry, and the prejudice among academics toward Epicureanism as two of the reasons for this. Interestingly, he suggest that this prejudice is 'largely abandoned'.

    -Describes Philodemus as epigonos, a disciple or follower of Epicurus.

    -Two goals in this work; first, to look into Philodemus' poetics. In 'far second place', to consider his poetics in light of Epicurean philosophy.

    Now onto the introduction itself. I will try to refrain from writing an outline, and stick instead to the features of interest...

    Quote

    The aesthetic works [on poetry, music, and rhetoric] are not technical manuals, but are about beliefs and attitudes toward their topics.

    This appears to me to be consonant with the approach of the early Epicureans, and may go to shed some light on a few of Epicurus' fragmentary quotations. Of particular interest is the question of how we got from Epicurus' style imitating Euclid, to Lucretius' style imitating Empedocles (wait your turn, Sedley!)

    Quote

    [Philodemus] first summarized the views of an opponent...then refuted them.

    Philodemus' attitude here is polemical; and we may see this same method at work in Lucretius, where he summarized other philosophers' explanation of natural phenomena and then tears down those explanations one by one. We may infer from the titles of the lost works of the early Epicureans that this polemical style was there from the beginning.

    Quote

    Nowhere is there a trace of the modern "principle of charity" [when interpreting what his opponents meant], except in discussions of earlier Epicureans, who could write no wrong.

    The question has come up on the forum whether Philodemus' books should be considered canon. McOsker appears to find him far too deferential to his predecessors, which may be of note. This is immediately followed by a brief excursion into the prolepsis, which McOskar sees as central to one of Philodemus' polemical methods. In other words, if the opponent does not even know what they mean by their words, which we must interpret with our "first understanding", we can reject the opponent as confused.

    Quote

    [on the structure of the books] A movement from small to large, or most detailed to most global, is easily discernible.

    If I read this aright, it is in contrast to what DeWitt identifies as Epicurus' synoptic approach, where the broad strokes of the topic are laid out and the details are filled in later.

    Quote

    ...it is somewhat mystifying that Philodemus does not discuss Plato at all and that Stoics get so little attention. I will suggest later that Philodemus is mopping up opinions that were not handled by other members of the school, i.e. Metrodorus, Zeno of Sidon, or Demetrius Laco.

    An interesting idea, which I look forward to hearing more about!

    Quote

    ...Philodemus' opinion that poetry is an inappropriate medium for teaching because of its lack of clarity.

    One of the reasons we must compare translations when reading Lucretius. It has been proposed that Lucretius substituted Iphianassa for Iphigenia to fit the meter of the poem. There are many other examples of this, where he coins words or uses archaic forms in order to get around a poetic problem.

    Quote

    It is a little unusual to have a section in one's introduction about the conclusions of the work...

    Not for an Epicurean! This is the synoptic view at work in McOskar's own book.

    However, I will not review his conclusions here, apart from one; let us come to them in good time!

    That one is this;

    Quote

    ...Philodemus did have an account of poetry and its workings...and he probably took it over from an earlier Epicurean (Metrodorus, as I suggest [later])

    A tantalizing prospect! in getting to know Philodemus' views On Poetry, it is possible we are catching a glimpse of a lost work by Metrodorus. A good enough reason to proceed, if we had no other!

    ...But that's enough for now. There is more to the Introduction, including a long bit on Canonics which will be worth reviewing---next time!

  • Joshua
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    15,010
    Posts
    1,902
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    95.8 %
    • February 7, 2022 at 11:02 PM
    • #2

    As I flip through the pages, I notice that toward the middle of the book we start getting into hefty blocks of Greek text (although there are passages of Greek throughout). So I'm happy to see that there will be a 'flavor' of Philodemus' writing here, at least.

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,967
    Posts
    5,563
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • February 7, 2022 at 11:34 PM
    • #3

    We have Janko's book in the library. I'll have to check on this one, Joshua.

  • Pacatus
    03 - Member
    Points
    6,200
    Posts
    778
    Quizzes
    5
    Quiz rate
    92.3 %
    • November 1, 2022 at 5:16 PM
    • #4

    Joshua

    The cost of the book is too rich for my wallet at this time; my public membership at the local university library expired during our rigorous social distancing during the covid surge – maybe time to resurrect it.

    The blurb on Amazon says, in part:

    “His [Philodemus’] main critical principle is that form and content are inseparable and mutually-reinforcing: a change in one means a change in the other. The poet uses this marriage of form and content to create the psychological effect of the poem in the audience. This effect is hard to pin down exactly. Poems produce "additional thoughts" in the audience, and these entertain them. It seems clear that Philodemus expected good poets to arrange form and content suggestively, so that the poems could exert a lasting pull on the minds of the audience.”

    It seems to be akin to a couple of my own poetic principles, such as a notion I borrowed from the Rastafarians: that of “word-sound-power” – along with imagery, metaphor and rhythm. And this:

    "The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls." - Pablo Picasso

    I have just recently been dipping into Philodemus’ epigrammatic poems, which are richly erotic. (And I have thus far made one attempt at rendering one of his into a more modern lyric form – with my own poetic proclivities.) As I read the free sample of McOsker on Amazon, I note that Philodemus rejected didactic poetry on Epicurean grounds, and thought that poetry need not be useful (at least philosophically) to be good. Philodemus advocated prolepsis as a criterion for determining the worth of a poem, though McOsker says he did not rely on that alone. He did insist that a good poem has “meaning” – which I would associate with its intended effect on the reader/listener. (But I do think that the “meaning” of a poem can be – even, most often, is – multiplex, and the reader is a collaborator of sorts on that.

    Philodemus’ criterion for a good poem is pleasure. I tend mostly to agree (though I sometimes write darker, Poe-esque verse).

    Any thoughts, friend poet? 😊

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

  • Pacatus
    03 - Member
    Points
    6,200
    Posts
    778
    Quizzes
    5
    Quiz rate
    92.3 %
    • November 1, 2022 at 5:27 PM
    • #5

    Joshua

    I would also welcome your critical comments on my attempted (modern/lyric) rendering of the Lysidike poem (again, with my own free poetic proclivities) here, before I put it anywhere else: Philodemus' Poetry

    Thanks again.

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

  • Joshua
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    15,010
    Posts
    1,902
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    95.8 %
    • November 2, 2022 at 12:42 PM
    • #6

    Ha! Another book I didn't get too far in. I'll try to get back into this. And yes, I will examine your rendition of that poem, Pacatus

  • Pacatus
    03 - Member
    Points
    6,200
    Posts
    778
    Quizzes
    5
    Quiz rate
    92.3 %
    • November 2, 2022 at 12:48 PM
    • #7

    No worries! :) I seldom am able these days to read anything of length straight through, but go at things in a piecemeal and patchwork fashion (that sounds better than "fragmented" ;) ) -- I haven't even finished DeWitt yet.

    Thanks Joshua.

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura 4

      • Thanks 1
      • Kalosyni
      • June 12, 2025 at 12:03 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Kalosyni
      • June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      434
      4
    3. Godfrey

      June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    1. New Blog Post From Elli - " Fanaticism and the Danger of Dogmatism in Political and Religious Thought: An Epicurean Reading"

      • Thanks 2
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      569
    1. Does The Wise Man Groan and Cry Out When On The Rack / Under Torture / In Extreme Pain? 19

      • Cassius
      • October 28, 2019 at 9:06 AM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 1:53 PM
    2. Replies
      19
      Views
      1.6k
      19
    3. Cassius

      June 20, 2025 at 1:53 PM
    1. Best Lucretius translation? 9

      • Like 1
      • Rolf
      • June 19, 2025 at 8:40 AM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Rolf
      • June 19, 2025 at 3:01 PM
    2. Replies
      9
      Views
      337
      9
    3. Cassius

      June 19, 2025 at 3:01 PM
    1. New Translation of Epicurus' Works 1

      • Thanks 2
      • Eikadistes
      • June 16, 2025 at 3:50 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Eikadistes
      • June 16, 2025 at 6:32 PM
    2. Replies
      1
      Views
      336
      1
    3. Cassius

      June 16, 2025 at 6:32 PM

Latest Posts

  • Episode 287 - TD17 - Current Title - How Do We Know Who The "Great" Men Are?

    Cassius June 23, 2025 at 7:39 PM
  • Forum Restructuring & Refiling of Threads - General Discussion Renamed to Uncategoried Discussion

    Cassius June 23, 2025 at 7:05 PM
  • Venus and Mars - "Good" vs. "Evil"?

    Cassius June 23, 2025 at 3:27 PM
  • “A small replica of himself”

    Rolf June 23, 2025 at 8:23 AM
  • The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura

    Godfrey June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
  • Sunday June 22 - Topic: Prolepsis

    Don June 22, 2025 at 4:00 PM
  • Episode 286 - TD16 - Confronting Pain With Reason Rather Than With "Virtue"

    Patrikios June 22, 2025 at 10:13 AM
  • Online Travel Videos of Samos

    Kalosyni June 21, 2025 at 9:08 AM
  • Welcome Alrightusername!

    Cassius June 20, 2025 at 7:48 PM
  • Philodemus On Piety

    Cassius June 20, 2025 at 4:47 PM

Tags

  • philodemus

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design