"Setting Before the Eyes"

  • In case it may be helpful here are other references in Lucretius which Bailey has translated the phrase "clear to see":

  • Cassius , thanks for all that food for thought! That's a lot of material in those last few posts, and, I'll admit, I haven't waded through it all yet. Remembering that I'm still also wading through On Anger (both Philodemus's text and the translators' commentary in that book) and the articles I linked to, let me summarize where I'm at:


    I'm intrigued by Cassius idea about possible links among the therapeutic technique of "setting before the eyes" in Philodemus, the use of the phrase "ante oculus" in Lucretius, and the sensory perception of images/eidolon in Epicurus. I have not seen that brought up anywhere else. I'm not saying I agree there's a link yet, but I'm intrigued.


    That being said, my take is that "setting before the eyes" is - for the most part - just a part of the instruction/correction of fellow Epicureans. Philodemus talks about it in On Anger in relation to ridding oneself of harmful behaviors. It's also mentioned by name in On Frank Criticism. Granted, since we've lost SO many texts, there could have been many more detailed explanations of the technique and its place in the "therapy" sessions.


    I originally thought Hiram may have been making more of it than was warranted. Now, Cassius might be imbuing it with more depth than is warranted. Maybe.


    That being said, it was obviously specific enough for Philodemus to consistently use the phrase to refer to an integral part of the sessions of frank criticism engaged in by the school.


    There is definitely an element of imagination involved. I do not think there is any evidence of an actual "seeing" from a visual perception perspective. The technique appears to have involved confronting the student/patient with vivid descriptions describing in detail the problem behavior and its consequences. But I seem to remember it wasn't meant to be preventative. It was employed after the behavior had been engaged in during a session of frank criticism to *correct* the behavior moving forward.


    So, that's why I'm not convinced that the images/eidolon are involved... Although I'm still unclear of those connections. It does appear that memory habituated the mind to receiving images, but that's all a little murky, too.


    This is interesting from a "what was actually going on inside the Epicurean community in ancient times" perspective, but also "how can we resurrect or re-use or re-interpret ancient practices for modern times" perspective. That's one reason why it's important to dig into this.

  • I originally thought Hiram may have been making more of it than was warranted. Now, Cassius might be imbuing it with more depth than is warranted. Maybe.

    We'll all soon be having whiplash!


    But I do think that the "images" aspect is one of the least appreciated aspects of Epicurean philosophy. It's almost totally neglected and most of us (including me) treat it as an amusing sidebar not worthy of much consideration.


    But given how it appears to tie into many aspects of the philosophy, I bet if we had more materials we would find it popping up in unexpected places, and this may be one.


    So I'm not really advocating any position yet except for let's dig into the material.


    And I need to verify near the beginning of the dig is to verify how many (if any) of those "clear to see" references are indeed "ante oculos."


    I need a good text version of Lucretius in latin somewhere -- I think there is or was a latinlibrary.com ?

  • This is interesting from a "what was actually going on inside the Epicurean community in ancient times" perspective, but also "how can we resurrect or re-use or re-interpret ancient practices for modern times" perspective. That's one reason why it's important to dig into this.

    This fascinating to me, and so some day soon hope to learn more. And there may end up being a similar process within "Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg" ...which uses "Observations, Feelings, Needs, and Requests" ...and the first step uses vivid exact description of exactly what happened or what was said...and they say: "describe what the video camera would see" as a way to be very objective.

  • the first step uses vivid exact description of exactly what happened or what was said...and they say: "describe what the video camera would see" as a way to be very objective.

    That's how I'm thinking "setting before the eyes" goes except in reverse: "Here's what the video camera would see."

  • That's how I'm thinking "setting before the eyes" goes except in reverse: "Here's what the video camera would see."

    So it is like practicing something in your mind, beforehand?

  • That's how I'm thinking "setting before the eyes" goes except in reverse: "Here's what the video camera would see."

    So it is like practicing something in your mind, beforehand?

    Well, I don't think so exactly. The technique, as I understand it, is used by the teacher to correct behavior in the student. "You keep up this behavior, this is what's going to happen to you." Then the teacher proceeds to paint a vivid word picture (see my previous post of excerpts from On Anger), making the student "see" what's in store for them. Also, as I understand it, it wasn't meant to be used beforehand, but after some behavior had been admitted to by the student. "I've been experiencing a lot of anger." Or the teacher or another student notices the person acting in an angry way. Then a frank criticism session is engaged in with the student, incorporating "setting before the eyes" to depict the consequences of the behavior. And I'm using anger simply because that's the topic of the surviving text.

  • Or the teacher or another student notices the person acting in an angry way. Then a frank criticism session is engaged in with the student, incorporating "setting before the eyes" to depict the consequences of the behavior.

    That doesn't seem to address the "root cause" of the anger...so no matter how much someone knows that bad results will happen, if they don't actively shift the "root cause" (by incorporating new more effective strategies) they will repeat the same behaviour. So this must have just been one small aspect of a larger "program" (one would hope).