Posts by DaveT

Quote from Cassius

Certainly it is the skeptical position to set up "absolute certainty" as a knowingly impossible target and thereby argue that nothing can be known for sure through the senses, and thereby assert that only through something equivalent to "ideal forms" can be held to be true.

Of course, this is not what I was saying, right?

Yet, what is the problem with the phrase "a high degree of confidence"? Do you think this is radical skepticism in the sense of the Hellenistic era of Greece, or in the modern sense of the word scepticism? Surely Epicurus would be amenable to the modern concept of sceptical reasoning since it would be the basis of rejecting ideal forms. Frankly, I have no problem with either usage of the word scepticism in the modern era in which we find ourselves. Neither one to me rules out believing anything with merely a high degree of confidence rather than absolute certainty.

Sorry I missed the Wed. meeting this thread is discussing. With that in mind, knowing I may be addressing something tangential, I note several things in this thread that have made me think more deeply.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quoting Godfrey It seems to me that multiple explanations are typically used by Epicurus to rule out the supernatural....

It also seems that multiple explanations can be used to support a theory by ruling out the competing theories....

It looks to me like Godfrey was saying there are two reasons a person may use multiple explanations to some topic; to disprove a point and to make a point.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quoting Cassius "....the point is that is not always possible to be sure which of several explanations might be the right one, ... we aren't going to be dogmatic..." "But as to basic issues such as nothing coming or going to nothing, or no supernatural gods, or no life after death, the positive evidence is abundant to RULE OUT those possibilities, so we dogmatically assert their falsity.

The two approaches - dogmatically rejecting that which is NOT possible, and suspending judgment between those which ARE possible - go hand in hand.

Of course all of the explanations asserted may all be false, and therefore fall within the realm of speculation and therefore explaining nothing to either prove or to disprove another's speculation. \

But the second part does give me pause;

Quote from Kalosyni

Quoting Cassius "But as to basic issues such as nothing coming or going to nothing, or no supernatural gods, or no life after death, the positive evidence is abundant to RULE OUT those possibilities, so we dogmatically assert their falsity."

I think the danger here in being comfortable with any sort of Epicurean dogma on physics is that while some of Epicurus' physics has proven more likely true than false, one must tread very lightly in attributing to him an omniscience akin to absolute knowledge. I see no evidence that there is life after death, and a great deal of evidence how humans invented numerous types of life after death throughout history to explain the unexplainable. I see no evidence that gods exist for the same reasons of contrary evidence about human nature. Indeed Epicurus believed in gods with no evidence of their existence. Correct?

And to follow up on this point, Epicurean theory about atoms was more a hypothesis, than a theory since he had no direct evidence of the truth of his statements, much of which parenthetically he learned from Democritus. True or false?

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QUOTE from Martin

"The study of physics/nature may give us sufficient confidence about the non-interference of gods and no life after death that we get rid of fears about them. We should not wait until the evidence for this is conclusive because it will never be conclusive."

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I agree with the focus of Martinabove.

And I see this issue on each side who advocate for either theist v. atheist, atomism v. creationism, divine cause vs. nothing from nothing as never being conclusive by either side, either by direct or indirect (circumstantial) proof. THERE IS NO UNCHANGING TRUTH on these issues, only confidence or lack of confidence based on whatever evidence we've found.

What I mean is, the Scientific Method does not demand absolute proof raised to the level of dogma or certainty regardless that people take findings to be absolute. The word Science is derived from the Latin "to know" But scientists, those who search for knowledge of the natural world, do not claim to know anything beyond a doubt. Neither do they claim knowledge that is unchanging forever. They rely on newly discoverable evidence and the testing required to prove or disprove any particular occurrence in nature in order to arrive at a consensus of opinion. And that opinion only give a high degree of confidence rather than an absolute certainty.

Quote from Kalosyni

We have only two options: to learn from other's mistakes (or their advice) or to learn from our own mistakes.

Yes in many ways this is true and vital for each of us. Yet, I'm thinking about how Epicurus thought we ought to navigate within our ordinary daily habits and small choices. I think they are barely noticeable to us as we go about the day. Retrospective reviews of our past actions in pursuit of reduced anxiety or physical pleasure are easier (if we are introspective from time to time). Like recognizing that carrying that 30 extra pounds is the result of engaging in unnecessary desires over the last x number of years is not healthy and we maybe, ought to eat less.

Certainly the small things that happen every day add up. Like negative thinking, and who among us has the skill set to analyze our daily lives in an ongoing manner to address and reduce negative thinking or on the physical side, over eating, much less reducing physical pain or discomfort? Perhaps my examples are poor ones, and they certainly are not meant to be exclusive.

And this is why I originally asked if Epicurus was saying we ought to make choices just at "critical times" in his later writings (if it was later in his life), as opposed to frequently making choices and avoidances in our mundane daily lives (which seems nearly impossible as an ongoing practice to be happy).

Hello Don, @ Joshua Kalosyni I found Don's post from 2020 while reading Kalosyni's post from yesterday on using "Joy" as a goal. It started me thinking; how might one actually find the time to make choices or avoidances in a practical sense.

When I got to Don's post, the first thing that caught me, (I know this wasn't your main point) was a part of the quote below from PD25: "If at all critical times, you do not connect your actions...."

And then when I compared PD 25 with the quotation below from the Letter to Menoikos "...the starting point of every choice and aversion...." I saw a distinction between the two concepts and particularly I wondered about the time periods of Epicurus' life when he wrote PD25 and the Letter to Menoikos. I mean to ask, which came first the generalization of at the starting point of every choice, etc, or the at critical times?

And this question is perhaps a subset of the foundational question of what does he mean by "at critical times"?

And I think these two questions of mine are important for my consideration of Kalosyni 's post for the following reasons.

1. Who has the ability to make daily choices before the question arises or the sensation of pain, or excess pleasure arises?

2. Did Epicurus expect us to constantly analyze our physical and mental states to gauge our, let's call it adjustments to balance our experiences to tend toward pleasure, or happiness or joy?

If we all share the sensations of daily life, it seems worthy of knowing did Epicurus originally in time say "at the start of" and later decide to clarify his teaching to remind his followers that they need to make choices at "critical time."?

I'd love to see various translations of Epicurus's use of the word Greek word for critical to help me better understand these issues. Thanks in advance.

Quote from Don

Letter to Menoikos where we read: "we honor [pleasure] in everything we accept or reject" in one translation of a line and "[Pleasure] is the starting-point of every choice and of every aversion" in another translation of the same line. In these, we are to "accept and reject" or to engage in "choice" and "aversion." What does the original say? Αἱρέσεως καὶ φυγῆς. The same words as the title of the lost book, but this time with different shades of meaning in translations.

Quote from Don

Consider Principal Doctrine 25: "If at all critical times you do not connect each of your actions to the natural goal of life, but instead turn too soon to some other kind of goal in thinking whether to avoid or pursue something, then your thoughts and your actions will not be in harmony." Here we are told to decide "whether to avoid or pursue something" εἴ τε φυγὴν εἴ τε δίωξιν. We encounter φυγὴν again, but now αἵρεσῐς "choice" is replaced by δίωξιν meaning "chase, pursuit." So, "choice and avoidance" in this case takes on a sense of "from what should I flee or what should I pursue." Again, giving us a richer sense of the practice.

Cassius Thank you.

Quote from Kalosyni

A main benefit of prayer is the development of a feeling of courage.

I can agree with your statement as a goal of praying. As I think about it, Christians probably pray mostly to ask divine intervention of some sort.

For example John 16:23–24 The New King James Version
"23 And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full."

And of course the shared prayer of most all Christians "...give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses..., lead us not into temptation...; deliver us from evil,..."

So, I consider this concept of the divine direction to pray as the primary "no go" distinction with Epicurus' self actualization. As I understand Epicurus, he would not abide by the doctrine of divine grace, and the intercession of the Virgin and the saints (for Catholics at least).

Psychologists, Sociologists, and Archaeologists among others will never be able to pinpoint the cause of the human urge to attribute divine power to control the universe. That urge seems likely to me in most, if not every existing religious belief. And religions no matter the time or era or location will never investigate or dig into a concept that relies upon "Faith" in the unknowable. Nor will they abide in questioning the foundations of their particular faith.

Cassius Agreed. I put eternal in quotes in reference to the proponents of eternal forms, etc.

I also am not well versed in ancient Greek culture. I tend to think the "eternal" Virtues of the ancient Greeks were the product of Socrates, Plato, and the other schools envisioned as eternal forms to guide public life and social structure. The focus on their Virtues would result in a social structure with guard rails designed to preserve what they believed was the unique status of being Greek.

On the other side of it, I tend to think of Epicurus, who preferred to avoid being a public or political person who thought more of virtue as subjective tools designed to improve the individual. Designed to perfect the individual's goal of happiness, rather than perfecting the social welfare of the city states and their colonies.

Am I close on this perspective or missing the mark by a mile?

Quote from Patrikios

Could you provide your definitions for these terms, or is there an Epicurean text that groups these 4 virtues as essential?

I googled ancient Greek Virtues and came away with those four. The search also identified Prudence as a subset of Wisdom. My personal definitions of those Greek’s Virtues? I’m not sure, but I’ll take a shot at it. Wisdom includes making choices based on what we’ve learned from experience to achieve our goals. Courage: the ability to apply what you’ve learned to achieve your goals even though the choice involves a hardship for yourself or those you act on behalf of. Temperence, I’m not clear how it differs from the first two. Perhaps it means the same as Prudence. And Justice, a recognition of the limits of your community’s rules on public behavior and behaving with those rules in mind.

So, Virtues are tools to achieve our goals. They are subject to individual interpretation. And if the way we think and interpret what our senses inform us about the world is shaped by nature and nurture, the process is subjective yet bounded by culture and upbringing, and our biology.

I can easily agree with the statement by@Godfrey that you quoted. Each of us undoubtedly can add virtues we can aspire to. For instance, I would add Kindness, and Empathy.

My own research on the peer reviewed research on the mythology of a historical Jesus, in addition to the questions of the accuracy of translations, I'm not even clear whether Thomas existed as a historical person.

Indeed, the line of thought that the Jesus narrative of the early Christian narrative copies so many concepts of various regional religions, I would not be surprised that the early Greek and Roman Christians took Epicurus into account before they settled on an agreeable account narrative of Jesus up to and at the Council of Nicea and continuing for the millennia that followed.

Quote from Joshua

That one is a fun read, I definitely recommend it!

Yes, I read it!

Joshua Thanks for your thoughtful post above. Your last line leads me to another question:

Quote from Joshua

Whatever else he was, Lucian offers an indispensable view into the Epicureanism of Asia Minor in the second century.

Do you mean Lucian's view as elsewhere stated? Because I was taking the thrust of his position as you stated to be applicable to Epicurus' school as well as other ones.

OK. I listened and read along for about half of the text intending to do so to the end. Then I couldn't put up with the verbal dialogue's pace and instead skimmed the rest of it by reading mostly Lycinus' commentary. I need some help here. I can't draw a firm conclusion of the value of the dialogue. Please give me a reason why this is helpful to a person, or put another way, what the author intended to say in far fewer words than he used.

Cassius Yes, as I am not familiar with his school, and I'd be interested in determining the extent of his influence on Epicurus' school, particularly since the Cyreniac school disappeared around the time period Epicurureanism was introduced and began to flourish

Quote from Kalosyni

people do not face the mental stresses and agitation that that kind of competition can bring on.

Quote from Kalosyni

[PD 21]"He who has learned the limits of life knows that that which removes the pain due to want, and makes the whole of life complete, is easy to obtain, so that there is no need of actions which involve competition."

The PD 21 speaks to me somewhat. As a small-town lawyer and then a writer and author, I understand you weren’t excluding any professions when you cited stockbrokers, etc. etc. as being the only ones subject to competition. I can add that in my Bar Association, there was an intense level of competition from the highest to the lowest for clients, fame, and community admiration. And in publishing, the competition among writers is a constant source of stress while trying to find a publisher and an audience.

And although I have no data to back me up, I think the population of the USA is acculturated to capitalism’s competition. And we are subject to the pressure of “keeping up with the Joneses” by measuring ourselves against the apparent material attainments of friends and neighbors, as well as depictions in advertising in the media. We can reduce stress to a degree by having the wisdom to understand necessary/unnecessary, natural/unnatural desires and their limitations to attain pleasure/happiness. But there are limits, stress causing limits on what we can actually do about it.

Unfortunately, given modern life, we can’t survive unless we compete for necessary things like jobs, better wages, more customers, which allow us to have decent food, clean water, secure housing and healthcare for ourselves and our aged family members.

I don’t see how we have a choice to reduce that competition given the economics of modern life. This is not to belittle the wisdom of PD 21 as applied to the ancient Greeks, but perhaps it was easier for them to make the “whole of life complete” than it is for all the people who work for a living to attain the same ends. Perhaps the family structure of Athens was also a factor, but I do not know how it compared to our modern world.

Quote from Kalosyni

Perfectionism and black-and-white thinking (and other problems).

This quote from your post refers to Platonism/Aristotelianism. Indeed so! And can we agree though, that on some occasions we benefit from the black and white when we need to make a decision? Philosophically speaking I also find a significant degree of Epicureanism in Western culture, too. For instance modern clinical psychology's use of cognitive therapy and even the mindfulness culture focus on reducing pain (suffering) by focusing on being "in the present moment" to avoid dwelling on the past or being anxious about the future. I wonder how many other ways our culture encourages Epicurean lifestyles without naming it as such? Perhaps it would be an interesting exercise /discussion to make a list.

Agreed. I know we each are not what we do for a living, but rather we're people who do work or study or other pastimes that influence how we think. I like hearing other perspectives in the forum and knowing a bit more about other participants enhances my appreciation of their point of view, or expertise, and so on.

Cassius  Kalosyni I'm glad for the questions since it helps me clarify my own thinking.

Quote from Cassius

could you restate your ultimate conclusion or question?

I guess it is my inclination to look for clarity for modernity’s application of the ancient wisdoms that engendered my post. My tentative conclusion/question is: Why can’t we clearly state and attribute Epicurus’ teaching to his synthesis of the Greek culture he was raised in with his process of taking that culture of the ancient Virtues to the next level of WHY and HOW we attain happiness via minimizing pain and maximizing pleasure?

As Kalosyni pointed out in the Principal Doctrine she cited, there is no conflict in recognizing the Virtues of the ancients (and any virtues recognized by ourselves) and adhering to the Epicurean WHYs and HOWs to be happy.

You both do a wonderful job of clarifying the distinctions between the schools, full stop! Your work on the podcasts with Joshua illuminates so much for me and most likely many others. There’s so much there to learn about.

It bothers me somewhat to hear criticism of the other schools with a broad brush in response to their attacks on Epicurean thought. It might sound odd coming from a retired lawyer, but resolving one dispute needn’t solely focus on the misstatements and accusations of the opponents. That leads to arguments that never end (except in courtrooms where judgements can be final!)

So, my conclusion/question is the hope that we can sharpen the incorporation of virtues as described by the ancient Greeks with Epicurus’ concepts; how he took their ideas to the next step in the universally shared search for happiness for mankind. This, I hope, can happen by acknowledging how we simply can’t fully pursue pleasure unless we learn and incorporate the virtues of the society we choose to live in (or adapt for ourselves).

Wisdom (Prudence), Courage, Temperance, and Justice are ESSENTIAL root-tools for us to regulate our desires. We can recognize this and reject that they are eternal forms existing outside of the material world. That recognition is the genius of Epicurus, as he synthesized the earlier schools, taking what he agreed with and discarding the rest.

Cassius This closing item in the post seems so important to me. I'd like to pose questions on it BUT since you asked for comments on your summary, perhaps my reply ought to be somewhere else. Please move it if you think appropriate

Quote from Cassius

Understanding that the goal of life is happiness through pleasure allows us to see that virtue is necessary for happiness, but that understanding what virtue means is essential, in that virtue is not a set of absolute that is the same for all people in all places and at all times, but that virtue is contextual and is in fact whatever conduct that in practice leads to living happily.

Understanding that the goal of life is happiness through pleasure allows us to see that virtue is necessary for happiness, but that understanding what virtue means is essential, in that virtue is not a set of absolute that is the same for all people in all places and at all times, but that virtue is contextual and is in fact whatever conduct that in practice leads to living happily.

As I read the Summary, I looked for some sort of amalgam or a way to build Cicero’s Virtues into the above quote. For example, let me pose this question: What were Academic/Stoic Virtues? The Internet tells me they were Wisdom (prudence), Courage, Temperance, and Justice. I agree these virtues can change with cultures. Yet, in our school, we certainly must look to the culture we are actually living in for the definition of OUR virtues. A person won’t get far using deeply personal antisocial interpretations of virtues for himself and still find happiness via acquiring pleasure. More likely that person will end up incarcerated by the larger community.

So, given our Western Industrialized Educated Rich Democratic culture, which sets the guidelines for our behavior, assume that the four virtues are uniformly agreed upon. Now, can we not agree that those four virtues are the necessary, and I mean necessary, virtues we each need to pursue in order to find happiness as Epicurus defined it?

This gives us each an indispensable mechanism to pursue pleasure. It uses the virtues to help us define and use to acquisition of pleasure. Epicurus, as far as I understand him, has no problem acknowledging the usefulness of the virtue of Prudence to achieve his definition of happiness. So would he not object to the following statement?

As a practical matter, the Epicurean pursuit of pleasure DEPENDS on each of us gaining some measure of the four virtues in our private lives in order to experience pleasure.

Cassius I understand what you are saying and completely agree with your statements. Can I conclude that Prof Nail's essay under consideration here is not relevant to whether Lucretius ignored Epicurus' atomism? I think the answer is that it is not.

P.S. I think it was Degrasse-Tyson who said something like: our universe does not need God in order to exist.

PPS Also, I recently read that Karl Marx's doctoral dissertation some time in the 1840s was a comparison of Democritus' and Epicurus' atomism, finding Epicurus' teaching was consistent with the Young Hegalians philosophical views which he favored.