Quote from Don

He also seems to have gone down an Epictetus/Stoic track after the initial interest in Epicureanism.

This is important to note, and to ask the question as to why this might have happened -- and could happen for anyone -- sort of a theoretical exploration as to why might someone study Epicureanism, but then later choose focus on Stoicism or modern stoicism.

Here are some reasons that come to me:

1) The given individual's lifestyle is not set up to be supportive or conducive to enjoyment in life, due to a busy or stressful schedule and/or a lack of friends to do enjoyable activities with.

2) The given individual's life situation is very unpleasant, making it difficult to relax and enjoy life -- a solitary lifestyle, difficult illness, mental illness, or poverty.

3) The given individual ideologically identifies more closely with "struggle" or self-advancement -- long hard hours of work to achieve recognition or fame -- in an attempt to improve one's financial well-being and/or to distract from # 1 and # 2 above.

Any other reasons not listed?

I myself feel that reason # 1 above applies to me -- though I will try to stick with Epicureanism for a little while longer.

This article covers a lot of background, here an interesting excerpt:

Quote

Yet it is not just the Epicurean aspiration for privacy that has led some to posit their exclusivist nature, but also the school’s communal nature. When the idea of the Epicurean desire for a quiet garden retreat is attached to their communal living it seems, to some, that the Garden must have been a self*sustaining, reclusive society. Although again we must caution ourselves by noting that we are left with surprisingly few primary sources from which to examine whether such an interplay or dynamic existed. Nor can we tell how such a format would define their understanding of those found outside of the Garden. Most comments referencing their communal life are allusions; such as Epicurus’ statement that: ‘the agreeable life [is] in each other’s society,’6 or when he references the insiders of the group as belonging to ‘the household.’7
Ancient commentators and historians of the Epicurean movement are equally laconic in their recording of the school’s communal nature. Diogenes Laertius, for example, remarked that: ‘friends indeed came to [Epicurus] from all parts and lived with him in his garden,’8

and in a subsequent statement he relayed for his readers the information that the members of the Garden enjoyed ‘the common life.’9 One of the only notable insights that we have received is that their goods were held individually, and were not communally shared*10 something that would have separated them from other communal philosophical groups such as the Pythagoreans, or, at least the portrayal of, Philo’s Therapeutae.11

I find the expressive painting and drawing of Art Nouveau to be very pleasureable and so wanted to start a thread on it in which anyone can post their favorites.

From Wikipedia, an excerpt from the overview:

"It was often inspired by natural forms such as the sinuous curves of plants and flowers."

Quote

Art Nouveau (/ˌɑːrt nuːˈvoʊ, ˌɑːr/; French: [aʁ nuvo]) is an international style of art, architecture, and applied art, especially the decorative arts, known in different languages by different names: Jugendstil in German, Stile Liberty in Italian, Modernisme català in Catalan, etc. In English it is also known as the Modern Style. The style was most popular between 1890 and 1910 during the Belle Époque period that ended with the start of World War I in 1914.^[1] It was a reaction against the academic art, eclecticism and historicism of 19th century architecture and decoration. It was often inspired by natural forms such as the sinuous curves of plants and flowers.^[2] Other characteristics of Art Nouveau were a sense of dynamism and movement, often given by asymmetry or whiplash lines, and the use of modern materials, particularly iron, glass, ceramics and later concrete, to create unusual forms and larger open spaces.^[3]

Also, I happened on this video which is quite magical and wanted to share, from the Savannah Botanical Gardens website:

Watch the "Art Nouveau" video:

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam [excerpt]

Edward Fitzgerald

1

Wake! For the Sun, who scattered into flight

The Stars before him from the Field of Night,

Drives Night along with them from Heav'n and strikes

The Sultán's Turret with a Shaft of Light.

2

Before the phantom of False morning died,

Methought a Voice within the Tavern cried,

"When all the Temple is prepared within,

Why nods the drowsy Worshiper outside?"

3

And, as the Cock crew, those who stood before

The Tavern shouted--"Open, then, the Door!

You know how little while we have to stay,

And, once departed, may return no more."

12

A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,

A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread--and Thou

Beside me singing in the Wilderness

Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!

13

Some for the Glories of This World; and some

Sigh for the Prophet's Paradise to come;

Ah, take the Cash, and let the Credit go,

Nor heed the rumble of a distant Drum!

14

Look to the blowing Rose about us--"Lo,

Laughing," she says, "into the world I blow,

At once the silken tassel of my Purse

Tear, and its Treasure on the Garden throw."

15

And those who husbanded the Golden Grain,

And those who flung it to the winds like Rain,

Alike to no such aureate Earth are turned

As, buried once, Men want dug up again.

19

I sometimes think that never blows so red

The Rose as where some buried Caesar bled;

That every Hyacinth the Garden wears

Dropped in her Lap from some once lovely Head.

20

And this reviving Herb whose tender Green

Fledges the River-Lip on which we lean--

Ah, lean upon it lightly! for who knows

From what once lovely Lip it springs unseen!

21

Ah, my Belovéd, fill the Cup that clears

Today of past Regrets and future Fears:

Tomorrow!--Why, Tomorrow I may be

Myself with Yesterday's Sev'n thousand Years.

22

For some we loved, the loveliest and the best

That from his Vintage rolling Time hath pressed,

Have drunk their Cup a Round or two before,

And one by one crept silently to rest.

23

And we, that now make merry in the Room

They left, and Summer dresses in new bloom,

Ourselves must we beneath the Couch of Earth

Descend--ourselves to make a Couch--for whom?

24

Ah, make the most of what we yet may spend,

Before we too into the Dust descend;

Dust into Dust, and under Dust to lie,

Sans Wine, sans Song, sans Singer, and--sans End!

71

The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,

Moves on; nor all your Piety nor Wit

Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,

Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

72

And that inverted Bowl they call the Sky,

Whereunder crawling cooped we live and die,

Lift not your hands to It for help--for It

As impotently moves as you or I.

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam [excerpt] by Edward Fitzgerald - Poems | poets.org

The following is from Wikipedia:

"FitzGerald emphasized the religious skepticism he found in Omar Khayyam.^[10] In his preface to the Rubáiyát, he describes Omar's philosophy as Epicurean and claims that Omar was "hated and dreaded by the Sufis,..."

Quote

The extreme popularity of FitzGerald's work led to a prolonged debate on the correct interpretation of the philosophy behind the poems. FitzGerald emphasized the religious skepticism he found in Omar Khayyam.^[10] In his preface to the Rubáiyát, he describes Omar's philosophy as Epicurean and claims that Omar was "hated and dreaded by the Sufis, whose practice he ridiculed and whose faith amounts to little more than his own when stripped of the Mysticism and formal recognition of Islamism under which Omar would not hide".^[11] Richard Nelson Frye also emphasizes that Khayyam was despised by a number of prominent contemporary Sufis. These include figures such as Shams Tabrizi, Najm al-Din Daya, Al-Ghazali, and Attar, who "viewed Khayyam not as a fellow-mystic, but a free-thinking scientist".^{[7]: 663–664} The skeptic interpretation is supported by the medieval historian Al-Qifti (ca. 1172–1248), who in his The History of Learned Men reports that Omar's poems were only outwardly in the Sufi style but were written with an anti-religious agenda. He also mentions that Khayyam was indicted for impiety and went on a pilgrimage to avoid punishment.^[12]

Omar Khayyam, painting by Adelaide Hanscom (c. 1910).

It takes a balance. I might have already posted this before, but this is very good in that it shows that happiness is both short term and long term -- "the riddle of experience vs. memory".

Quote

“We live and experience many moments, but most of them are not preserved,” Kahneman said. “They are lost forever. Our memory collects certain parts of what happened to us and processes them into a story. We make most of our decisions based on the story told by our memory.

Read the article

Watch a Ted talk:

This article from the above website looks good: dealing with stress.

omg -- I just found this very interesting website:

“Dear Venus”: Praying to an Ancient Goddess at the Getty Villa

21st-century prayers to an ancient goddess.

blogs.getty.edu

Quote

For, indeed, it were better to follow the myths about the gods than to become a slave to the destiny of the natural philosophers: for the former suggests a hope of placating the gods by worship, whereas the latter involves a necessity which knows no placation.

This seems to point toward the retaining of hope that prayer (or sacrifices to the gods) would be effective, rather than believing in a destiny which cannot be changed.

So perhaps I should pray to Aphrodite? -- lol

Quote from Cassius

PD27. Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.

Yes! And then also this Vatican saying:

34. The use of friends is not that they are useful, but that we can trust in their usefulness.

So then I take this as meaning to have friends in which we can rely on. And of course friends whom I enjoy being around and spending time with. And it takes time and effort to nurture these kinds of friendships.

Moving away from the REBT (of this thread) -- this morning I remembered being a kid and in 2nd or 3rd grade, a woman came into our classroom to have us do sing-alongs of various songs to her guitar accompaniment.

This was one song:

lyrics: "Hush Little Baby"

or listen:

Researching this I see that it was a folk song lullaby orginating from Virginia/North Carolina. And the idea is that there is always something else in which to find enjoyment, though this is rather materialistic in that it is relying on material objects.

As adults there is no Papa to take care of us anymore, nor is there a "Papa in the sky" to whom we pray. So it is up to us to do what we need to do. And sometimes first the pain before we can get to the pleasure, as Cassius wrote in another thread:

**"Because Epicurus might well listen to a person's story and their particular set of problems and prescribe something that leads first to "Pain" before only later leading to "Pleasure."**

And it comes to me, I wonder what might we say from a wise Epicurean point of view -- sort of a grown-up lullaby. What kind of words would we sing to ourselves when things seem difficult? This is something I will ponder, and perhaps write a song

Quote from Cassius

In my view, Epicurean views need to be thought of first as a "philosophy" of life - a world view. Yes Epicurean philosophy is practical, and yes it will lead in many practical directions, but Epicurean philosophy is not first and foremost a "therapy" as modern Stoicism has become.

I think a kind of "therapy" can come out of a worldview -- which for Epicureanism is enjoyment of life and friendships which support the enjoyment of life.

And this is something that I want to blog and post about in the future - as I feel there are many therapuetic aspects within Epicureanism.

Especially this link is good, lots of good points of "therapeutic" value:

Post

RE: A Post At Facebook Relevant to Activism And Living As An Epicurean

[…]

I think sometimes we might get caught up in the notion of philosophy involving only mental exercise: study and discussion, thoughts on how to apply a hedonic calculus (or a "virtue calculus" for the Stoics), mind-focused meditation practices (and practices to "condition the mind," as Nate says), etc. The physical comes up more in terms of food and drink, sometimes sex, maybe taking a walk in nature.

But physical exercise can be free (unconditioned) in practice -- and as a practice. Socrates…

Pacatus

May 2, 2022 at 1:48 PM

Quote from Cassius

You yourself are the only person who can decide how best to spend your time and what goals are appropriate.

So to further elaborate on my idea of a "recipe for a happy life" - I will be more open about what that is - the idea of being in a long-term relationship (which I was in the past, but am no longer) and having the joys of intimacy (both emotional and physical). Statistically women over the age of 50 are much less likely to partner up again (I have researched this. Often any men who are single in older age are either not in the mindset for wanting a relationship, or they have "attachment-avoidance" behaviours and are therefore unfit for long-term relationships.)

So my second "recipe for a happy life" is to create an in person Epicurean philosophy group - this would be my consolation for not being able to cook up my first desired recipe. This would need to be something which would give the emotion intimacy of friendships. But this is a very big project which is proving to be more difficult to get going, and logistically I feel a bit flummoxed. But I do realize that by putting my mind more firmly on my goal of an "Epicurean Garden" then I do start to feel a bit...happier, lol.

So then I must focus on this, and doing what needs to be done to create that.

Quote from Cassius

VS46. Let us utterly drive from us our bad habits, as if they were evil men who have long done us great harm.

Cassius from what you are writing then it seems there is a subtle overlap between modern Stocism and Epicureanism (but not in ancient Stocism), especially as seen with this Vatican Saying.

It is hard to say how the idea within my mind of a particular story regarding the "best life" or the kind of life that will be most pleasurable, came to be. Perhaps it was past moments of a time in which everything seemed right in my life, but now my life is different and uncertain. My particular idea -- sort of a life "recipe" for happiness -- may never come to be again.

So it seems that I may have to settle for a lesser recipe -- one which is rather bland -- no salt or spices -- sure I won't keel over and die -- and maybe I will at times find pleasure. But I suppose this is why some people end up in Buddhism and doing meditation.

Quote from Cassius

We haven't talked about cognitive behavioral therapy in a long while, and i am not up on the details. In general, it's definitely more related to Stoicism, and in fact the leading internet Stoic, Donald Robertson, is primarily (from what I gather) a CBT teacher.

Oh wow, I didn't know that.

For myself, I just notice that occassionally I get caught in some kind of circular thinking which makes me feel sad. And it has to do with something that I want, but it is difficult to get, or it is something that I may never be able to have. And then I might think: "If I can't have (xyz) then I can't be happy in life." Which is followed by "And there is probably something wrong with me and that is why I can't get it/have it."

So REBT is a way to talk yourself out of your false beliefs about reality. And yet it leaves a sort of empty feeling.

But if this particular "thing" that I want is something which I feel would fall into the Epicurean category of "necessary for happiness" -- and if there was an Epicurean community, then someone could step forward to help resolve the situation, or as a community everyone could put their heads together to figure out a solution. So if we are living in this modern isolated world, and thus there is CBT to deal with the modern world problems, problems coming out of consumerism and individuality, and divisive or guilting political and religious ideologies. And people go through life with way too serious of an attitude.

In addition to the above post, here is more. There isn't anything in Epicureanism like this, but this could be helpful for dealing with feelings of worry which can get in the way of the enjoyment of pleasures.

Quote

Here are the questions to ask yourself, outlined in our Disputing Irrational Beliefs Handout:

1. What is the self-defeating irrational belief I would like to dispute and reduce?
2. Am I able to support this belief with objective facts?
3. What proof is there that this belief is false?
4. Is there any proof that this belief is true?
5. What is the worst possible outcome that could occur if I fail to get what I believe I must? What’s the worst possible outcome if I do get what I believe I mustn’t? What other negative things could happen to me?
6. What positive things could I cause to happen if my undesirable scenarios pan out?

Source: https://positivepsychology.com/rebt-technique…ses-worksheets/

In the past I studied this mode of therapy and attempted to apply it to myself. One is supposed to do this with a certified therapist rather than on one's own. But I did find some benefit from it from studying it. I think this might be compatible with Epicureanism? ( even if it might be more likely associated with stoicism). What do you all think?

Here is an brief over-view:

Quote

REBT is the pioneering form of cognitive behavior therapy developed by Dr. Albert Ellis in 1955. REBT is an action-oriented approach to managing cognitive, emotional, and behavioral disturbances.

According to REBT, it is largely our thinking about events that leads to emotional and behavioral upset. With an emphasis on the present, individuals are taught how to examine and challenge their unhelpful thinking which creates unhealthy emotions and self-defeating/self-sabotaging behaviors.

REBT is a practical approach to assist individuals in coping with and overcoming adversity as well as achieving goals. REBT places a good deal of its focus on the present. REBT addresses attitudes, unhealthy emotions (e.g., unhealthy anger, depression, anxiety, guilt, etc.) and maladaptive behaviors (e.g., procrastination, addictive behaviors, aggression, unhealthy eating, sleep disturbance, etc.) that can negatively impact life satisfaction. REBT practitioners work closely with individuals, seeking to help identify their individual set of beliefs (attitudes, expectations and personal rules) that frequently lead to emotional distress.

REBT then provides a variety of methods to help people reformulate their dysfunctional beliefs into more sensible, realistic and helpful ones by employing the powerful REBT technique called “disputing.” Ultimately, REBT helps individuals to develop a philosophy and approach to living that can increase their effectiveness and satisfaction at work, in living successfully with others, in parenting and educational settings, in making our community and environment healthier, and in enhancing their own emotional health and personal welfare.

https://albertellis.org/rebt-cbt-therapy/

I wouldn't want to say that anyone should do this on their own, so this is just a reference to a possible mode of therapy. And I am re-visiting it now, due to feeling some life stressors and circumstances which have me feeling off-kilter.

In some sense this is like "worm-wood" medicine. But as Epicureans we need to use some honey with it -- so to be gentle and kind and give oneself some Epicurean pleasure, while applying this.

This link has more specifics: REBT

Hi reneliza,

Welcome to the forum!

There is so much material and interesting threads here that you will find of help in the study of Epicurean Philosophy.

You might like to check out the FAQ section for quick answers to common questions, and short summaries as well:

Frequently Asked Questions - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

Quote from Pacatus

"The sweetest kind of life"!!!

The trick is figuring out how to do it when you don't live in Italy, lol -- "Le dolce vita!"

Spending more time outdoors:

This is good stuff! And I can imagine it all being assembled into a short Epicurean reader -- titled as "Epicurean Pharmakos" (will put this on my to-do list).

Quote from Cassius

"I will read his works," said Theon, "and question the writer.

This brings up a question, which may be answered somewhere else already, yet here it is --

Back then it was said that Epicurus did not teach publicly. And we know he wrote many books, and copies were given out (or sold?) And this was a way to convey the teachings, and also this might have served the purpose of preventing errors in understanding, or errors in incorrect repetition. [Think of the game of "telephone" in which children sit in a circle and whisper a sentence into the ear of the person sitting next to them, and by the end of the circle that phrase is very different than the original].

The question is: Did Epicurus actually have people read the teachings themselves instead of giving lectures?