Posts by Kalosyni

A few snipets from the video:

"There is no all encompassing perspective that gives me all of the information about a situation."

--"transpersectivism" - "the way to seek an understanding of truth through other perspectives/traditions and incorporating them into our own"

Also it goes on to say: "Science's belief in objective truth works."

And then toward the end says "asking different questions requires different ways of processing the underlying reality" and this is in regard to understanding the human mind.

To the question: "Do we see the world accurately?" This thought came up for me: watching the scene with a man walking through an alley that has graffiti covered walls -- as we observe reality, can we separate our feelings (pleasure or aversion) and judgements of "right/wrong" or "good/bad" about an observation...can we separate this from our sensory observation of the barest of facts about the situation? So this would be analogous of "What does the video camera see?" --- and this would be a kind of objectivity that could be corroborated with other human beings. (This was not in any way addressed in the above video).

@Cassius...Does Epicurean philosophy say anything about "objectivity separate from judgement"? (In the way I just explained in the above paragraph).

And if so, how would you very briefly state that?

I just happened upon this thread, and thought it might be good to cross reference it here, as it tells a story about addiction and it's consequences, and also gives some Epicurean principles and potential wisdom to help anyone who might be dealing with addiction or who knows someone dealing with addiction. (Addiction is a very complex issue, and may of course need the help of an addiction counselor or therapist).

Thread

“Love and Marriage, Real Series”

Although we are now forced to devote much of our attention to the nature of viruses, and how to prevent or defeat the pain that comes from them, we should also keep in mind the nature of pleasure, the goal for which we endure the possibility viruses and all other kinds of pain.

Just as we study the details of how viruses operate, and how we can minimize our danger from them, we should remember too that pleasure operates through natural mechanisms, and we should study the details of how…

Elli

March 30, 2020 at 12:02 PM

I'll go ahead and do a description of a simple breath awareness meditation.

You begin as you say to yourself: "Breathing in, I know I am breathing in. Breathing out, I know I am breathing out." This can be your starting thoughts, then you can drop this and move to watching the sensations as they arise in the body...

Focus your awareness on air moving in through the nose (with mouth closed). Notice the feeling of the air as it flows inside the nostrils. Notice the feeling as your chest expands and fills with air. Gently let the air come all the way down into the diaphragm, and notice as it expands. Let the speed of this be at whatever speed feels good. Then watch as you naturally breathe back out at whatever speed feels best. Let your body relax and loosen any tension at you exhale. Repeat this process, and just let it happen at whatever speed feels good. This will vary, sometimes fast, sometimes slow. Check to feel if your sitting posture (on chair or cushion) is both relaxed and supported, so that your spine in a good alignment, head and neck comfortably aligned. Again relax your neck and shoulders as you exhale. As you continue, let your breathing become smooth, let it feel like it is become smooth on it's own accord. No need to force anything. If you feel tightness at any point or place in your body just notice it. Breath into it with gentleness, and let it relax on its own terms. You can then "play" with aspects of your breathing, including letting your exhale have some audible sound, as well as opening your mouth as you exhale (always breath in through nostrils). Gradually allow your breathing to relax toward going slower and deeper, feeling and enjoying the smoothness. Experiment with eyes open to increase energy (gently focused on a spot about three feet in front of you), or try with eyes closed (to increase relaxation and as a sleep aid, in which case you could do this laying down in bed).

This is a very good topic, in my opinion. There are so many forms of meditation out there, and everyone has individual preferences for what feels pleasurable. Now that I am personally identifying as "Epicurean" I am very much enjoying the idea of "doing what is pleasureable" rather than doing meditation for "stoic-discipline" reasons.

The Buddhist teacher Thich Nhat Hanh has a very simple approach, and he says: "Enjoy your breath" and so now I periodically remind myself to do that (with a little note posted on my refigerator). So from my earlier times studying meditation, I have taught myself a certain way of inhaling and exhaling which I find pleasureable. It is very simple and involves the full experience of feeling the body, and it can be a kind of "medicine". Perhaps I will blog on it soon, and then add link to here.

Quote from Joshua

4. Have lunch with an old friend. Pleasure is the good of life, and friendship the very best of that good. Tell them about that bird you were staring at the other day.

Yes, some people here on the forum might find that their "friendship needs" are easily met, where as others might find that this it isn't as easy as it "ought" to be, or used to be in the past.

Right now the world is still in the midst of the covid pandemic, which may be less of an issue in some places than others. Things have "opened up" again where I live, however there seems to be much less happening as far as public meetings, gatherings, and social meet-ups.

I think this forum can function as a helpful place until we can all get back on our "friendship-feet" again.

Perhaps Cassius the phrase "agreeable motion"?...which just last night found, because I was reading about creating Epicurean outlines: Thomas Jefferson's Epicurean Outline

And then my mind starting thinking about how someone who enjoys both pleasure and reason, might not very often find themselves in the midst of the ecstatic dance crowd (What would Thomas Jefferson say about ecstatic dance, if he time-traveled and observed it?)

And then it came to me...

Epicureans would more often than not, would dance with their eyes fully open!

So much of group ecstatic dance is done with the eyes closed, however I very rarely felt the need to do so when I danced. Also in my Buddhist meditation - eyes open, not closed.

Because Epicureans fully accept the world, fully enhabit the pleasure of life, take responsibility for personally navigating through pleasure and pain (responsible action) then there is an enjoyment of the experience of life...and so we enjoy dancing with our eyes wide open.

I found this article about ecstatic dance and wanted to share. This is something that I used to do a few years back. (Now with covid still happening, it only occurs on a very scaled back level).

My question is this: How does dance fit with Epicureanism, as it is something which creates a certain level of passion and excitement.

Do we know if dancing did occur at Epicurus' Garden? Or would the focus be more on the philosophy, so everyone focused on learning and discussion of philosophy? Or perhaps later Gardens in Roman times had dancing?

How would dancing fit with a modern Garden? (I know there are different types of social dance and this is just one modern type of dance).

Excerpt from article:

Quote

We all know what happens when a baby hears music.

If you haven’t witnessed it firsthand, you’ve likely encountered a YouTube video (or, if you’re in the majority, many videos) that captures a child’s reflexive physical reaction to music. Viral videos show babies instinctively scrunching up their faces and nodding their heads to a dubstep track, or flailing their arms and legs from the confines of a car seat when the chorus kicks in on a pop song. (And, if YouTube observations aren’t evidence enough, there’s research like this 2010 study that found babies are predisposed to move to music.)

Turn some tunes on for a kid and the results are not only adorable, they are telling: humans are born to dance.

Yet, even though this innate need to move doesn’t go away as we grow up, few of us adults let loose like our inner child would. When we do dance, it is often in a set way — in a dance class, for instance — or, if in more loose settings like the lusty dance floor of a nightclub, our movement can be filtered through the lenses of social norms and desires. Even as someone who relishes the opportunity to leave it all on the dance floor, my opportunities for truly liberated dance — the kind where you stop thinking and let your body go — are relegated to the dusty desert dance floors of Burning Man, the occasional concert and solo dance parties in my living room. (Of which there are many.)

So what happened to us from tot-hood to adulthood that tampered with our freedom to groove?

Quote from Cassius

And although I have not heard Kalosyni read anything, I bet she could read well too

I would be up for doing some audio reading (as long as I know beforehand how to correctly pronounce some of the proper names)...and would enjoy the process of making something enjoyable to listen to.

I just added this:

--Avoid using white font color in your postings as this completely disappears in some situations and with some themes.

I want to still add something about setting up notifications, but may not get to that for a few more days.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I would love to visit such a garden with a smiling Epicurean and a lot of good friends in it!

We can each make it happen, where-ever we live!

Or...we all decide to move to one particular city and create one.

Since I live in the U.S., then that is where I would want to set up a Garden.

Everytime I say that I want to start a Epicurean Philosophy Garden, it sounds rather "grandiose"...and yet everything must first start with an idea.

I've decided I want to start one on the East Coast...now I have only to determine the best location...I am open to feedback on that by anyone who reads this.

Don the above outline you made is great!!!!!!!

Quote

Quote

Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself

If you visualize this as a flowchart...this shows that there are three catagories underneath both "natural and necessary":

1) necessary for eudaimonia

2) necessary for freedom from disturbance for the body

3) necessary for life itself

So "necessary for eudaimonia" could encompass a great number of things (things such as friendship...and you could then go as far as including such things a "sexual expression" as necessary for happiness -and- freedom from disturbance of the body).

I feel certain that back in time, this was much more clearly and exactly explained in Epicurus' teachings, but so much of the written teachings didn't survive. Is there anything in Epicurus' writings where we can gain more detail about what is "necessary for eudaimonia"?

Maybe the only way through all of this is to apply common sense and to "scientifically" test it and to make a list of things, and decide which of the three catagories we think they might fall into.

Here is my response to the Atlantic article...another article (lol)...this is about decision making, which I think has good information for all modern Epicureans to consider (provides a bigger picture of decision making)...some excerpts:

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Chocolate or strawberry? Life or death? We make some choices quickly and automatically, relying on mental shortcuts our brains have developed over the years to guide us in the best course of action. Understanding strategies such as maximizing vs. satisficing, fast versus slow thinking, and factors such as risk tolerance and choice overload, can lead to better outcomes.

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What is informed decision-making?

The ability to think critically is key to making good decisions without succumbing to common errors or bias. This means not just going with your gut, but rather figuring out what knowledge you lack and obtaining it. When you look at all possible sources of information with an open mind, you can make an informed decision based on facts rather than intuition.

Quote from Marco

8. If a desire appears to be insatiable, it is likely because a person is otherwise unhappy or because the desire is for something impossible.

9. When a person is focused on an impossible desire, such as to live forever, the poor fit of substitute pleasures makes them feel their ordinary desires are insatiable.

(This quote by Marco was originally from Elaine)

I've joined in here a little late...but wanted to say that this really makes sense for me.

Here a helpful analogy from Marshall Rosenberg (originator of Nonviolent Communication):

...Don't go to the hardware store if you want to buy eggs.

So by "empty" we actually mean impossible to fullful.

So much of mental suffering comes when we try to pursue "empty" desires. Some people have stronger habits around pursuing things that are "empty" and are unable to reason what is "empty" and what is real.

About the word "empty" - both the same usage in English and Greek - the word can appy to physical objects or to mental ideas.

Objects that can hold things (boxes, cups, etc.) can at times be empty.

Ideas that can hold things (truth, validity, reason, accuracy) can at times be empty.

Quote from SimonC

I registered an account because the common-sense interpretation of pleasure as opposed to bread-and-water ataraxia made sense to me, and in order to learn more.

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I just finished listening to the podcast...enjoyed it hearing many of the ideas presented, even though there were some hard topics presented (the torture description which I had never heard of before).

It seems to me that this podcast points to tranquil pleasures as being very important.

Quote from Cassius

"We refuse to believe, however, that when pleasure is removed, grief instantly ensues, excepting when perchance pain has taken the place of the pleasure; but we think on the contrary that we experience joy on the passing away of pains, even though none of that kind of pleasure which stirs the senses has taken their place; and from this it may be understood how great a pleasure it is to be without pain." --Cicero, paragraph #56

This explains the importance of absense of pain in Epicureanism.

And there was a comment about Cyrenaics...didn't take notes, so can't restate the exact quote. Instead, I will give this description from Wikipedia:

Quote

"The Cyrenaics taught that the only intrinsic good is pleasure, which meant not just the absence of pain (as it did for Epicurus), but positively enjoyable sensations. Of these, momentary pleasures, especially physical ones, are stronger than those of anticipation or memory. They did, however, recognize the value of social obligation and that pleasure could be gained from altruistic behaviour. The school died out within a century and was replaced by the philosophy of Epicureanism."

I just feels like there is so much in common between the two schools. Because even mental pleasures of anticipation or memory exists "in time" and so has a momentary quality.

It is possible that my own belief leans more toward the Cyrenaics. Memory might become more important for me if I grow old and infirm. But for now I both need and want to "indulge" in pleasurable activity...and I choose healthy activities that don't bring pain or problems.

Have to share my feelings about "The Good Place" clip...on one level it is comedy, and on another level it illustrates how modern civilization might be "devolving" as evinced by the petty thoughts of the characters, and the story line. A few years ago with a friend...watched a few of the very early episodes of "The Good Place" and found it unappealing. Watching this clip reminds me that I can both laugh at comedy and feel disgusted by the underlying ideas presented. Perhaps some people find that internal discord entertaining. I would guess that it was presented here simply as a way to quickly illustrate the "trolley problem".

I haven't listened to the podcast yet...will have more to say after listening.

For anyone who feels that studying Epicureanism (and the resources on this website) is like an "independent study college course"...then these study tips might be a way of going about it:

Bloom's Taxonomy - remember, understand, appy, analyze, synthesize, evaluate, create:

Concept Maps – Learning Center

What are concept maps? Concept maps are visual representations of information. They can take the form of charts, graphic organizers, tables, flowcharts, Venn…

learningcenter.unc.edu

Just an idea... Maybe we need to collaboratively work on creating more documents in the lexicon section... "wikipedia" type pages... where we organize by topic, using the information presented in the best posts. We could have a simple glossary and links would open to an one or two page overview of each glossary entry. So this would by-pass the complexity of multiple threads. Already there is so much here that it would fill many books.