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I think I'll learn a lot from this first attempt at a live meetup. I'll have to manage the conversation, make sure it's not just generic chat, and prevent anyone (including myself) from talking too much.
Perhaps this...using a book on Epicurean philosophy.
Probably the best "user-friendly" book is Emily Austin's book: "Living for Pleasure: an Epicurean Guide to Life"
Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life - Emily Austin
Al-Hakiim von Grof That looks like a good brochure! ...and perhaps AxA may want to use it (or something like it) for the Epicurean Meet-ups group he is starting.
kochiekoch Wishing you a Happy Birthday! 
AxA Welcome to the forum!
That's great that you are starting a meet-up in Toronto.
And looking forward to meeting you at the next First Monday Zoom. I'll be posting the discussion topic about a week before. I will go ahead and add you to the group conversation - the meeting link will be sent out the day before the meeting.
sowhataustin Welcome to the forum!
"The wise man always has more reason for joy than for vexation."
You could almost use this as an additional "criteria" when you ask yourself: What will happen to me if I get what I want and what will happen if I do not get what I want. (paraphrase of VS71)
The lighthouse is always there. We steer our little boat towards the lighthouse. We steer away from the rocks and shoals by the beacon of the lighthouse. We choose to keep going through storms and rocks to get to safety. We don't sit out the storm, unless we're too far out to see when we have to heave to.
How does pain, pleasure, homeostatis, satisfaction in the feeling of being alive (Chrysippus' hand), doing what needs to be done for good longterm outcomes, etc. fit into this metaphor?
Pleasure exists as the omnipresent end-point of all our actions. We don't have to run the race to achieve pleasure. It is here, now, in every decision, every action, IF we're willing to admit that that is - in every moment - the final cause of all our actions.
Don it sounds like you are saying that the telos is the same as saying: "pleasure is the guide of life". (?)
Which then is very similar to saying: When the sky is clear it is blue - basically, an observation.
Many people have goals beyond their own pleasure — some give too much of themselves, others take too much for themselves, while almost all seek unnecessary change of some sort — and this leads them into many unpleasant and unnecessary circumstances!
Bryan it sounds like you are saying duty to "virtue" sometimes overrides pleasure as a guide of life. (?)
And what you said about: "while almost all seek unnecessary change of some sort — and this leads them into many unpleasant and unnecessary circumstances" - this may be worth a new thread discussion, to explore (if you have more to say?)
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What comes up for me now is that we really ought to be saying that both pain and pleasure are the guides of life. Because if you watch yourself during an entire day, how much of the time are you motivated by the desire to remove pain?
Of course the next thing that would be said is: "pleasure is the removal of pain". But this is doing word gymnastics (redefining words). If I go outside to pick some camellia flowers and put them in a vase and put them on my dining table, then this is done for pure pleasure. But if I drink water because I feel thirsty and it relieves my thirst, then I am motivated by the removal of pain.
I have thoughts on the word "goal" for τέλος ... But that'll have to wait until this evening
Just to flesh out a bit more about the "goal": "What does an Epicurean focus on doing?"
Because either you are 1) choosing for yourself and being intentional; or 2) you are just going along with what other people around you are doing (i.e. letting them choose for you or going along with their random whims); or 3) giving in to your own random whims and urges.
So if you are choosing your actions with intention, you need to know how much importance to put onto each option that comes your way.
I don't see a way around explaining what Pleasure means in full, which is more than just sensual stimulation.
I firmly believe that Epicurean philosophy should be easily explained without having to re-define a common word.
In English the word "pleasure" currently has a specific meaning. And to the average person who has not studied the philosophy, it ends up conveying an idea that Epicureans just are just out to have a good time, and it very much is first understood as sensual stimulation or sensual gratification.
We use a different word for mental pleasure - it's called "enjoyment". And I feel like the phrase "pleasant experiences" encompasses both physical and mental pleasure.
Also, what is left out of "pleasure" is the use of reason to banish wrong opinions about the nature of life, the soul, death, etc.
So a goal could be to state all of that (enjoyment, prudence, and reason) in one succinct sentence.
This excerpt from the Letter to Menoeceus got me thinking...
"For it is not continuous drinkings and revelings, nor the satisfaction of lusts, nor the enjoyment of fish and other luxuries of the wealthy table, which produce a pleasant life, but sober reasoning, searching out the motives for all choice and avoidance, and banishing mere opinions, to which are due the greatest disturbance of the spirit."
We need to pay attention to how we hear and understand words. If we say "Pleasure is the goal of life" it ends up leading to a skewed understanding of Epicurean philosophy, by putting too much emphasis on food/drink/sex...and because there are those people who function that way even now in our current times.
So my idea is saying this instead: "Pleasant experiences are the goal of life" which can still include enjoyment of food, etc. and has a more grounded feeling (and includes prudence) compared to "pleasure is the goal of life" which has a "swinging from the chandeliers" connotation (or the sex/drugs/rock-n-roll").
"Pleasure is the goal of life"
------------VS-------------
"Pleasant experiences are the goal of life"
On the topic of Valentine's Day...I was just reading about "Palentine's Day" and "Singles Awareness Day"...
Which brings up the idea of also adding in the topic of friendship.
So to broaden the upcoming First Monday night discussion, we could also add that in...and also this: "What place does "virtue" have in relationships and friendships...kindness, generosity, etc, etc.
Regarding geometry, I found this article, which says Pappus of Alexandria talked about the hexagon, and it would also be Pythagoras who talked about the ideas of the hexagon as the perfect shape of nature.
( Cassius if there is a better place for this article please move this)
Coming up next Monday night is our First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Discussion - Via Zoom, at 8pm ET. We especially want to invite any new members to join in the discussion, as this meeting provides time for meet-and-greet.
Agenda:
If you have not yet attended a First Monday but are interested, please post here to let us know (or send a private message to Cassius or myself). The Zoom link goes out by private message the day before the meeting.
Hope to see you there!
Here is another way to word the title of this episode:
"Virtue is a means for pleasure, and not an end in itself."
- and -
"Good is that which causes pleasure or is pleasurable, evil is that which causes pain or is painful"
Thinking about ways to bring more pleasure into my life, and found this list, which has an assortment of items (but many of these are a matter of personal taste, not all of these would work, and... there could be many more things besides just these 50)...
50 Enjoyable Activities:
- Go for a walk
- Listen to music
- Take photographs
- Read a newspaper or magazine
- Take a bath
- Sit in the sun
- Watch a movie
- Laugh
- Write in a journal
- Work on a puzzle
- Recall a happy memory
- Coloring
- Gardening
- Spend time with friends
- Do yoga
- Swimming
- Singing
- Dancing
- Go to a flea market
- Drawing or doodling
- Painting
- Buy fresh flowers
- Join a book club
- Go to a farmer’s market
- Be affectionate with a loved one
- Play a musical instrument
- Crafting (crochet, model building)
- Get a manicure or pedicure
- Cooking
- Jogging or running
- Play a sport
- Go sightseeing in your own town
- Read a book
- Meditate
- Watch a sunrise or sunset
- Enjoy a cup of tea
- Have a picnic
- Visit a museum
- Sudoku or a crossword puzzle
- Play a board game
- Look at old photos
- Light a scented candle
- Call a friend or family member
- Hiking
- Get a massage
- Volunteer
- Go to the library
- Go to a park
- Stargazing
- Explore somewhere new
And here is another list from another website:
List Of Pleasurable Activities On Your Own:
Spending time in your own company can be an easy way to increase pleasure – as long as your time is focused on some useful things. Here are some ‘you-time’ activity ideas…
– Read a trashy book
– watch a favourite movie
– Eat something that you haven’t tried for a while
– take a walk and really focus on what’s around you, rather then what’s in your mind
– Play a game or puzzle
– Doodle or draw a picture
– cook a favourite meal
– do an activity that will switch your body on such as a brisk walk or swim.
– Write a bucket list
– Find out more about something that makes you curious.
– dress up in your best clothes, just for the fun of it
– spend an hour spotting local wildlifeList Of Pleasurable Activities To Do With Friends:
Connecting with people that are important to you can be pleasurable in itself, but sharing a common task or goal and keep your mind focused. If this focus is on something pleasurable then you can get two benefits in on!
– Go for a walk together
– Cook a meal for them
– Write or call a friend you have lost touch with
– have a mini fun competition together
– play an old fashioned board game
– sign up to an evening class together
– have a spa day togetherList Of Pleasurable Activities To Do With Your Family and Partner :
Spending quality time with your family or partner is a key way to increase your psychological wellbeing. However it is also one of the things that tends to get forgotten about first. Here are some ideas that don’t just mean you are together, but that you actually get to enjoy being together…
– Talk about something you’ve never spoken about before
– Eat a meal together
– visit somewhere new
– plan a holiday together
– Ask or offer a massage
– Do an indoor camping trip in your front roomThings To Keep In Mind About Increasing Opportunities For Feeling Enjoyment And Pleasure…
Remember that when you start increasing pleasurable activities in your life, that it is unlikely that you will experience a sudden and extreme change in emotion. Rather, by doing small and regular amounts of pleasurable activities intentionally, your mind will begin to learn to identify moment by moment times in which you get get enjoyment. The big picture here is that you increase you mind’s ability to experience pleasure – and whether you are happy with life, or are having difficulties currently, this can only be a positive change to make.
This is an article about newly recommended limits on alcohol:
Excerpt:
On the heels of the surgeon general's warning about the cancer risks of alcohol, there's a growing consensus that less is better.
But this doesn't mean that people who choose to drink should give it up entirely. Though there's no precise answer on how much alcohol can be consumed without increasing health risks, many experts say an acceptable amount ranges from about one drink per week to no more than seven drinks per week.
This is significantly less than what is currently recommended. A review underway may lead to changes to U.S. guidelines this year. And many experts agree the current advice, which is up to 14 drinks a week for men and seven for women, is out of date and may be too high.
"I do think a change is needed," says Dr. Aashish Didwania, a primary care physician and medical educator at Northwestern University.
A growing body of research points to a link between alcohol consumption and an increased risk of seven types of cancers, stroke and premature death. But what's still debatable is the exact threshold at which risks increase. This likely varies from person to person based on their genetic risks and other lifestyle habits.
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All I can say is listen to your body and how you feel. Also, perhaps as one gets older the body is less efficient in clearing out alcohol, so then at a certain point deciding not to drink any more alcohol - that's were I am now.
Happy Birthday EricR
This morning as I was looking at a much needed cleaning project (needing to straighten up my house), it came to me that perhaps I have too much "stuff".
After listening to the video presentation by Don (and recall talked about the "simple" diet of most people living in ancient Greece), I was thinking about the definition of the word "simple", and found this online dictionary entry.
So often self-help websites give out a recommendation to return to a simple lifestyle, as an antedote to the "too much" of modern life (too much noise, too much traffic, too much commotion, too much stuff).
And yet, it seems this is an individual issue, as it is really about what feels right for each person - Epicurean philosophy says to pay attention to what feels pleasant and pleasurable. So some people may not need "simplicity".
What stuck out for me from the dictionary entry of the word "simple"...was the definition: ordinary. (Don may have talked about the word ordinary in his presentation, I'll need to re-watch it).
And I think we can end up cognating words in slightly different ways (as sometimes the word "simple" can be applied to a lack of intelligence, which gives it a negative connotation).
Another meaning is: easy ...(which does echo that what is necessary is easy to get).
I wanted to start this thread to discuss:
What place does "simple" have in Epicureanism?
So feel free to share your thoughts
