Posts by Kalosyni

Welcome to the forum Lua050904 !

Here are some things you might want to check out if you haven't already:

Frequently Asked Questions - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

...and two YouTube videos by Cassius:

Overview of Epicurean Philosophy (Major Aspects)

11 Key Doctrines

Cassius posted this over in another thread:

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I wish we had some shorthand way of indicating a reasonable level of confidence for a particular passage of text. Maybe we ought to create a thread to explore some kind of ranking system that would include factors like:

....

Thread

Possibilties For Shorthand Rating System For Indicating Reliability Of Texts

I doubt that I will pursue this myself much further, but since I wrote this up as a comment to graphic I thought I would post it separately in case someone thought it was helpful for their own thinking. I'm not at all sure that such a thing would be practical, but thinking about the factors that would go into any such system is probably a good exercise:

I wish we had some shorthand way of indicating a reasonable level of confidence for a particular passage of text. Maybe we ought to create a…

Cassius

September 21, 2024 at 7:01 AM

Once again trying to do some filing of threads posted in General Discussion. If you were the originator of a thread and believe that it should have been filed in a different location, please let me know by private message.

Also, if you can't find a thread that was previously in the General Discussion, you might try Google search and type in:

-EpicureanFriends.com and the topic or title-

...(which sometimes works better than the forum search function).

Quote from Don

And that drachma line has A LOT of holes.

In all studies, when there are so many holes, I think it is important to categorize which texts are complete and can be trusted vs. which are incomplete and therefore not to be trusted. (I am saying this in regard to all found ancient texts).

Quote from Don

Call me a skeptic

If we don't have a complete text (ie we just have fragments with missing lines and missing words) then we should hold off on making judgements because the evidence is incomplete -- and an incorrect understanding of what was written could arise, because missing words change the meaning.

At most we can state a label of the subject matter.

Happy Birthday to Tgonzalez3790 !

More thoughts, and still thinking about creating an Epicurean heirarchy or wheel.

From the Letter to Menoeceus:

"Third, keep in mind that some desires are natural whereas others are groundless; that among the natural desires some are natural and necessary whereas others are merely natural; and that among the necessary desires some are necessary for happiness, some for physical health, and some for life itself. The steady contemplation of these facts enables you to understand everything that you accept or reject in terms of the health of the body and the serenity of the soul — since that is the goal of a completely happy life." (Peter Saint Andre translation).

------> "serene" - calm and free from agitation, distress, fretting, restlessness, or irritability

------> "happy" - pleased and free from sadness, disappointment, hopelessness, or lethergy

------> The word "necessary" can be thought of as a human need.

We also see from the Principal Doctrines:

PD29 "Among desires, some are natural and necessary, some are natural and unnecessary, and some are unnatural and unnecessary (arising instead from groundless opinion)."

PD30 "Among natural desires, those that do not bring pain when unfulfilled and that require intense exertion arise from groundless opinion; and such desires fail to be stamped out not by nature but because of the groundless opinions of humankind."

------> necessary desires are relieved by nature -- desires that arise because of our animal nature can be relieved by simple and natural means.

------> but unnecessary desires can't be relieved by nature -- desires invented because of the consequences of wealth (the desire for continuous variations of sensation), power (the desire for protection by trying to find security against political violence or murder or by making unsavory alliances with unwise/tyrants against a greater enemy), or status (the desire to be admired or worshipped)

PD27 says: "Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life, by far the greatest is friendship." And in PD28 it says: "...security amidst the limited number of dreadful things is most easily achieved through friendship."

------> Friendship should be included in an Epicurean wheel of needs.

Coming up next Monday evening is our First Monday!

Agenda: Welcome and introductions, discuss current popular forum threads, discussion on topic, and time for questions.

The topic of discussion is the second major doctrine of Epicurean philosophy and here is a description as it is presented on our front page:

Once Epicurus determined that the universe results from atoms moving naturally through void, he reasoned that the universe could not exist if the atoms were infinite in number but space were limited in size. If that were so, everything would be close-packed and nothing could move. Likewise, the universe could not exist if the atoms were limited in number but space were unlimited in size, If that were so, the atoms would never combine into bodies, any more that debris floating on a vast ocean could ever come together to form solid objects. Epicurus therefore deduced that universe is infinite in size - both the number of atoms and the extent of space are infinite.

From this Epicurus concluded that there can be nothing "outside" the universe as a whole, and so everything that exists is a part of the universe if it exists at all. This conclusion eliminates the possibility of supernatural forces existing "over" or "outside" the universe, and it focuses our attention on the tremendous implications of infinity. Given the infinity of atoms and space, all combinations of atoms which are possible can be expected to come into existence an infinite number of times and places. This does not mean that "anything" is possible, because some combinations of atoms are physically impossible. We know, for example,that there are no "Centaurs," or "Supernatural Gods," because it is Nature itself which sets the limits between what is possible and what is impossible.

As Epicurus wrote to Herodotus: "These brief sayings, if all these points are borne in mind, afford a sufficient outline for our understanding of the nature of existing things. Furthermore, there are infinite worlds both like and unlike this world of ours. For the atoms being infinite in number, as was proved already, are borne on far out into space. For those atoms, which are of such nature that a world could be created out of them or made by them, have not been used up either on one world or on a limited number of worlds, nor again on all the worlds which are alike, or on those which are different from these. So that there nowhere exists an obstacle to the infinite number of the worlds." (Bailey, at 45).

Read about more about the topic in our forums here.

***

If you are interested but have not previously attended a First Monday, let us know so we can get the link to you. All others will receive link reminder as usual.

Also, any previous attendees who have been absent from the forum for some time or have not attended within the last 6 months, please send private message to be added back into the link conversation.

Quote from TauPhi

Accusation that he's cherry picking makes no sense. This lecture is exactly about cherry picking.

The antidote to cherry picking is making a personal outline AND that outline needs to be backed up with references to specific quotes in specific texts.

In this video he makes statements that are not backed up by specific quotes from the texts.

Every person should study the textual sources themselves rather than take anyone's interpretation (even a professor's interpretation).

Quote from TauPhi

It's about questions like: Can I take 3 types of desires as described by the philosophy and use this knowledge in everyday life successfully? Do I need something else or is it sufficient to make good decisions? Did Epicureans got friendship right? Should I change something in my approach towards my friends? What are the personal implications of acknowledging pleasure as the good?

These are good questions to include in a personal outline.

I just don't have time to go through that video and list everything that seems incorrect to me.

It's like we are one step away from having quite an assortment of "Epicureans" or "Epicurean beliefs" such that there are three blind men in a room with an elephant and one feels the trunk, one feels the tail, and one feels the leg.

The antidote to this situation is that folks ought to create an outline of what they believe are the Epicurean tenets, and include the sources in the texts. Also updating the outline when there is a change in how one sees things. I myself need to do a better job of outlining with sources.

And then there would be no need to post outside videos on the forum, as we could be making our own videos instead.

This seems like something modern day Epicureans would enjoy: "Friendsgiving"... looked it up on Wikipedia:

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Friendsgiving is a Thanksgiving-themed feast meal typically eaten prior to or instead of a family Thanksgiving dinner in the United States. Gathering are typically a group of close friends, often millennials, although participation has broadened.

The meal began as an additional holiday or as an alternative to the traditional family Thanksgiving gathering for people who could not or did not want to go home for the holiday. For some celebrants, Friendsgiving has evolved from a pre-Thanksgiving gathering to replace traditional Thanksgiving entirely. Most celebrate it as a separate event during the Thanksgiving season.

Read more on Wikipedia

Here are some thoughts on anger:

---Get clear about who or what you are angry at:

A person? What exactly did they do? -- describe as objectively as possible as if a video camera had recorded it.

A situation or event that occurred? -- this could involve multiple people, yourself, plus unforseen circumstances, describe as objectively as possible as if a video camera had recorded it.

An idealogy or group of people? -- perhaps something political or religious that feels morally wrong and beyond control -- get clear about what you believe and value, as well as what is and isn't in your control.

Yourself? -- this could be a particular standard of competence that you thought you "should" be able to maintain -- Shift to seeing that we are all human and make mistakes, and then see the situation as a learning experience by taking note of what you would do differently next time.

---Get clear about your feelings of anger what (level of intensity and where in your body you feel it) and if you are also feeling frustrated or disappointed.

Anger is motivating but if you are too angry (out of control) or not clear about what the problem is then it isn't very useful.

---Understand the root causes of anger:

1) you think that something should or ought to be different than it is -- because it is unfair, immoral, or "wrong"/"incorrect" -- and you are judging a situation according to your internal principals (which may be different than the other party involved).

2) the situation seems very unpleasant or unbearable.

3) there is a problem that seems difficult to change and you feel a lack of power to implement changes or it feels like it is out of your realm of control.

---Shift the anger into solving a problem:

Get clear about what the problem is and what you would want instead. Get specific about what you would want, but also come up with several options for solving the problem.

Get clear about what the other side feels and wants -- sometimes they want the same end result but just have a different strategy for getting there. Find a solution that both sides can feel good about (there are a lot of modern resources on conflict mediation).

If you were harmed, decide if you want to ask for acknowledgement or restorative justice. (Remember that vengeful punishment will most likely result in perpetuating a cycle of violence, which will bring more harm than good. And trying to "teach" someone will only result in that person digging in their heals furth to defend their position).

Happy Birthday @Taverne !

In this video he emphasizes mental pleasures, but we have in both Diogenes Laertius and Cicero's Torquatus section that it is both physical and mental. (and there are other sources).

I give this video: ...because it has a number of incorrect concepts...and it seems to be saying that the goal is to avoid distress.

Quote from Matteng

1. Desires for happines ( eudaimonia )
2. Desires for Life

3. Desires for body/health

I am thinking that there is a difference between "needs" and "desires". A human needs healthy and nutritious food but they may not desire to eat greens or vegetables. "Needs" are what humans evolved with as animals - it would be an innate feeling that something is "off" when something goes unfulfilled. Also, there may be some people who don't desire happiness (because they think they don't deserve it, they have given up on it, or they think that self-sacrifice is more important.)

I am thinking that a wheel could work rather than a pyramid. Here are some ideas, will organize this better tomorrow:

Survival needs

Safety/security needs

Physiological needs - food, water, shelter, movement, etc.

Competence/self-assurance

Social group connection and recognition

Flow in work and living environment

Mate and/or family/group

...

This is interesting (from that link):

Quote

Problems With the Pyramid

One interesting fact to note is that Maslow himself never presented his theory as the famous pyramid with which we are all familiar. He did not view these needs as levels or stages you reach before moving on to the next. Maslow instead believed that people move within the hierarchy and that we are often driven by multiple needs simultaneously.

I need to add that if one picks out certain quotes or excerpts from texts of Epicurus then that will result in a particular emphasis on implementing moderation/minimalism in a kind of "black/white--either/or" manner, when in actuality there is a longer process involved which involves learning how to use prudence as a tool which leads to a pleasant and pleasurable life.

And it is important to take in a big picture view, rather than only quick snippets. The quick snippets may work as a starting point, but the next step is understanding the big picture view, which leads to developing practical applications in the modern world that we live in.

What is good about the play and the dialog is that it presents many of the basic ethics of Epicurus, which are taken from the Letter to Menoeceus and the Principal Doctrines.

Yet, there are several ways to "enter" the study of the philosophy, and each way with have differing results:

1) study the ethics only - this is a quick way to try to study, and yet it may end up requiring a kind of "faith" (similar to religion) because the underpinnings of the philosophy may not be fully studied and then the reasons for "why" are not fully understood. This may also lead to "short-cut" ideas like "moderation", "minimalism" and "bread-and-water Epicureanism".

2) study the "way things are" and the ethics at the same time - Epicurus presented a worldview based on "philosophical materialism" and emphasized the utmost importance of understanding the "seeds" and causes of things. We can see this in Lucretius' De Rerum Natura. When we apply the method of studying the causes of things to our everyday lives, then our ethics is more fully informed.

Life does not unfold with a "black/white" or "either/or" set of choices -- we need to test things out, and see what feels good (pleasant/pleasurable) and what feels bad (painful/stressful). From the outside to others it may appear that we practice "moderation", but on the inside we are continually sensitive to what works best based on the unique unfolding of circumstances -- such that what many may think is pleasurable actually is no longer pleasant to us, and we discover that it has no place (and no necessity) for us -- and we aren't giving anything up at all, but instead we are gaining pleasure by abstaining.

Like-wise for pursuing pleasure and "going for it" - we must each evaluate the situation based on our own resources and on our unique physiological needs, again with a kind of "trial-and-error" (and when we are certain that the risks aren't going to bring a terrible outcome).

Implementing the philosophy of Epicurus takes time and effort -- there is a learning curve to making good choices in life and moving toward a pleasant/pleasurable/joyous life.