Posts by Kalosyni

This has useful ideas and with some modifications it could become an "official" Epicurean phamplet.

Suggestions for a few changes and additions.

#7 - is there source material on this? (though it's true, yet it sounds a bit "dark")

#10 - delete "No matter how cute she is." (Or change it to: "No matter how cute they are.")

#11 - change the "pulling wings off flies" analogy to something else such as playing Pokemon.

#13 - add a bit more of an explanation on this point

Add something about natural justice (?)

Possibly site reference numbers to PD's, etc.

I listened to entire Episode 96. I found it enjoyable and intellectually stimulating. You are all contributing such interesting points. Was the "proof" adequately established? Not sure if I missed something. It seems proof is taken on the premise of a materialist framing of the world, and those who come from a supernatural or platonic absolute won't be convinced.

Cassius, I see PD19 and PD20 as addressing the nature of pleasure, and not helpful on how to alleviate fear of death.

Stoics vs. Epicurean philosophy:

Blog Article

A Comparison Chart: Stoic vs. Epicurean Philosophy

This chart comparing the major features of Stoicism vs Epicurean philosophy is a continuing work in progress! It is currently hosted at a Google Docs page to make editing easier. Feel free to make comments and suggestions in the Forum thread associated with this article. Click on this link to go to the chart: Reference: Comparison Chart of Epicurean and Stoic Views

Cassius

January 20, 2018 at 10:04 AM

Quote from Martin

Epicurus' philosophy is better characterized by the statement that peace of mind is required to experience maximum pleasure but is not equal to pleasure

This is good. This sheds light on things.

And so then:

Just as virtue is in the service of pleasure, so too peace of mind is in the service of pleasure.

"For there is nothing terrible in living for the one who truly comprehends that there is nothing terrible in not living"

So then, this is mostly in regard to the fear of a mythical religious afterlife? Not so much as simple fear of non-existence(?) since atheism is only a limited modern movement.

Fears of death:

1) fear of an imagined afterlife (hell or a purgatory)

2) fear of the end of one's existence (an innate grasping desire for self-existence)

3) fear of the painful experience of dying (will it be excruciatingly painful?)

4) fear of living through long moments when it is uncertain if one will live or die (during severe sickness, war, political unrest, famine).

I see this as a way to quiet ones fears and deal with uncertainty in life. It could pragmatically be applied to future unknowns such as climate change.

I regret using the word "tantra" as it has nothing to do with Epicurus. (btw...I was thinking "western tantra" and not "Eastern religious tantra").

Let's leave it at what Don said:

Quote from Don

any time you can be fully present and aware is going to increase your ability to tune into your experience of pleasure.

Quote from Martin

for quite some pleasures, we might spoil them if we analyze them while we experience them

This reminded me of the importance of moving fully into the body during the experience of short bursts of intense pleasure (eating chocolate or the moment of orgasm) by opening up the body and breathing in deeply and exhaling slowly to create a tantric experience.

Thank you for the reading recommendations Cassius.

For me the katastematic "pleasure at rest" is a mental sense of satisfaction and gratitude, a quiet feeling of joy...when everything is fullfilled. So it is like a cat sitting in the warm sun and purring, and enjoying the sense of aliveness. It isn't a permanent state. And many modern people might prefer to "keep busy" in life and so miss out on experiencing the quiet kind of pleasure. Modern life is noisy, and active entertainment is everywhere. I can imagine that back before modern technology, "pleasure at rest" was even more enjoyable when shared with good friends.

Perhaps my viewpoint comes from past dabbling in Zen meditation (and modified by a Theravadin approach of sitting for the feeling of bodily enjoyment). I admit that the "pleasure at rest" sense of satisfaction doesn't happen for me very often. But I wonder if Epicurus might have taught this in the Garden. And if it was lost, though it's not something that easily translates into words.

Quote from Diogenes Laertius

"He differs from the Cyrenaics with regard to pleasure. They do not include under the term the pleasure which is a state of rest, but only that which consists in motion. Epicurus admits both; also pleasure of mind as well as of body, as he states in his work On Choice and Avoidance and in that On the Ethical End, and in the first book of his work On Human Life and in the epistle to his philosopher friends in Mytilene.

So also Diogenes in the seventeenth book of his Epilecta, and Metrodorus in his Timocrates, whose actual words are: “Thus Pleasure being conceived both as that species which consists in motion and that which is a state of rest.” The words of Epicurus in his work On Choice are : “Peace of mind and freedom from pain are pleasures which imply a state of rest; joy and delight are seen to consist in motion and activity.”

He further disagrees with the Cyrenaics in that they hold that pains of body are worse than mental pains; at all events evil-doers are made to suffer bodily punishment; whereas Epicurus holds the pains of the mind to be the worse; at any rate the flesh endures the storms of the present alone, the mind those of the past and future as well as the present. In this way also he holds mental pleasures to be greater than those of the body."

"And as proof that pleasure is the end he adduces the fact that living things, so soon as they are born, are well content with pleasure and are at enmity with pain, by the prompting of nature and apart from reason. Left to our own feelings, then, we shun pain; as when even Heracles, devoured by the poisoned robe, cries aloud,

“And bites and yells, and rock to rock resounds,
Headlands of Locris and Euboean cliffs.”

"And we choose the virtues too on account of pleasure and not for their own sake, as we take medicine for the sake of health. So too in the twentieth book of his Epilecta says Diogenes, who also calls education recreation. Epicurus describes virtue as the sine qua non of pleasure, i.e. the one thing without which pleasure cannot be, everything else, food, for instance, being separable, i.e. not indispensable to pleasure."

Come, then, let me set the seal, so to say, on my entire work as well as on this philosopher's life by citing his Principal Doctrines, so to bring the whole work to a close and making the end of it to coincide with the beginning of happiness:"

Display More

So this highlights both the pleasure of rest and the pleasure of action...

....so both "the cake AND the frosting".

Thank you for your reply Cassius. I did feel a bit "reactive" earlier today as I was writing my previous post, which is not the best frame of mind to post dialog.

Yes, you are right about me. I at times slip into black and white thinking...I do need to work on catching and correcting it (and attribute slip-ups to Christian fundamentalist upbringing).

And finally, it comes down to our slightly different interpretations of Epicurean philosophy. I need to get clear about which Epicurean ideas are ambiguous...and I need to sit down on my own and write out my personal interpretation of Epicurean philosophy, plainly and with references to the PD's etc.

Quote from Cassius

Every aspect of Epicurean philosophy is geared toward focusing on pleasure as the goal, not at "keeping our desires at a minimum" as a goal.

Cassius that's too much of a black and white, all or nothing interpretation. The desires that should be kept to a minimum are those that lead to pain and difficulty.

Now as I read your comments, I would venture to say, that on this forum you, my dear Cassius...you are forging a new kind of Epicureanism, and in fact you are a "Neo-Epicurean" yourself...and it could be called "Cassianism".

And this very well might be it's formula:

Assertiveness + material wealth + daily enjoyment of using one's wealth = the goal of life is to enjoy your material riches in physical pleasure.

So those who have the wealth to do so may follow this hybrid interpretation.

Those of us who are less wealthy understand the benefits of not investing mental energy onto all the modern "dainties" that could be acquired if one had the money to buy them. And so we turn our attention to focus much more intently onto mental pleasures.

My words of advice: What the wise should cultivate desire for (and then take action on) is this: Friendship, companionship, camaraderie, good conversations, and time to be physically present with friends.

Cassius and all, I wish you well. And may you live in blessedness.

(Of course, any and all who wish to respond here, please do so).

Thank you Don for sharing the link. I find it worthwhile and new angles to explore, with regard to the balance of pleasure over a full life --- bodily (physical sensation) and mental (delight and tranquility).

Reposting link:

Epicurean versus Cyrenaic happiness

Epicurean versus Cyrenaic happiness

www.academia.edu

This might bring up some ideas for consideration and further exploration of the differences between the teachings of Epicurus and Aristippus.

The following paragraphs are quoted from:

Epicurus | | Mt. San Antonio College

Quote

"In opposition to Aristippus, Epicurus maintains that the duration of pleasures is more important than their intensity in achieving happiness. Consequently, he argues that the mental pleasures are in general superior to the physical pleasures, because they are longer-lasting, albeit less intense. Although he finds the physical pleasures unobjectionable in themselves, he contends that the pursuit of them for their own sake leads not to happiness but to its opposite. Experience shows us that the desire for a life filled with intense pleasures will be frustrated, because there are not enough of them in the ordinary course of events. What is more, the pleasures derived from such objectives as fame, wealth, and the like are usually outweighed by the pains necessary to procure them, and the pains consequent upon such activities as feasting, drinking, and merrymaking either cancel the pleasures or leave a balance of pain. From these considerations, Epicurus can only conclude that Aristippus’ standard of judging what is good - that is, "the most intense, sensual pleasure of the moment" - is entirely self-defeating."

"The chief difference between Cyrenaicism and Epicureanism lies in their divergent conception of the nature of true pleasure. Fundamental to their disagreement is the distinction between active or positive pleasure, which comes from the gratification of specific wants and desires, and passive or negative pleasure, which is the absence of pain. Aristippus sets as the goal of life a constant round of active pleasures, whereas Epicurus maintains that the active pleasures are important only insofar as they terminate the pain of unfulfilled desires. For Epicurus, the passive pleasures are more fundamental than the active, because it is through them that happiness is gained. A human being’s ultimate goal is not a constant succession of intense sensual pleasures, but is rather the state of serenity, ataraxia, characterized by "freedom from trouble in the mind and pain in the body."

"Epicurus assures us that the calm and repose of the good life are within the reach of all. It is necessary that we keep our desires at a minimum, however, and distinguish the natural and necessary desires from those that are artificial - for example, longings for wealth, excitement, fame, and power. The latter are not merely unnecessary to health and tranquility but are in fact destructive of them. By contrast, the satisfaction of the natural desires (the desires that must be fulfilled to preserve bodily health and mental peace) and the freedom from pain that accompanies such satisfaction lead to happiness."

"Epicurus tells us that our good can be realized through philosophy, the quest for knowledge. It must be understood, however, that the function of philosophy is preeminently practical:

Vain is the world of a philosopher which does not heal any suffering of man. For justis there is no profit in medicine if it does not expel the diseases of the body, so here is no profit in philosophy either, if it does not expel the suffering of the mind."

"By nature men seek pleasure, but by knowledge they are guided to the choice of the true pleasures. Without deliberation, we cannot hope either to forestall needless and artificial desires or to secure the pleasures required for happiness. In addition, without knowledge of the nature of things, we cannot rid ourselves of the fears and superstitions that destroy tranquility."

Display More

So considering things for their long term pleasure...

A habit of eating candy has a high likelihood of resulting in tooth decay and a trip to the dentist (not fun!).

Instead of "moral rightness or wrongness" would replace that with "joy and enjoyment vs. "pain".

Just throwing this into the mix for your consideration.

Excerpt from Wikipedia:

"The felicific calculus is an algorithm formulated by utilitarian philosopher Jeremy Bentham (1747–1832) for calculating the degree or amount of pleasure that a specific action is likely to induce. Bentham, an ethical hedonist, believed the moral rightness or wrongness of an action to be a function of the amount of pleasure or pain that it produced. The felicific calculus could, in principle at least, determine the moral status of any considered act. The algorithm is also known as the utility calculus, the hedonistic calculus and the hedonic calculus.

To be included in this calculation are several variables (or vectors), which Bentham called "circumstances". These are:

1. Intensity: How strong is the pleasure?
2. Duration: How long will the pleasure last?
3. Certainty or uncertainty: How likely or unlikely is it that the pleasure will occur?
4. Propinquity or remoteness: How soon will the pleasure occur?
5. Fecundity: The probability that the action will be followed by sensations of the same kind.
6. Purity: The probability that it will not be followed by sensations of the opposite kind.
7. Extent: How many people will be affected?

Felicific calculus - Wikipedia

*Can you

Can post a link to the text you used, thanks.