Posts by Kalosyni

A further comment in regard to:

Quote from Cassius

But in these things, I fear, you will suspect you are learning impious rudiments of reason, and entering in a road of wickedness. So, far from this, reflect what sad flagitious deeds Religion has produced. By her inspired, the Grecian chiefs, the first of men, at Aulis, Diana’s altar shamefully defiled with Iphigenia’s blood;

A new definition of "evil":

Evil is not only the harmful or hurtful act itself, but the "unreasonable" justification of the harm or injury by those commiting the act, and/or the unreasonable justification by those who are in the same tribe and/or who believe they benefit from the act.

Regarding the fear that "non-Epicureans" will misperceive us, and will say to us:

Quote from Cassius

Those views you are talking about sound pretty underground to me and actually bordering on evil.

This idea is something that needs to be "unpacked"...the fear that others will see Epicureans as evil. And it means we have more work to do, since there is a clear moral understanding within Epicureanism, which is that causing harm to others will most often result in less pleasure for ourselves and for those we love, as well as much more pain in the long-term. And so we act according to ethical values just like everyone else, however the understanding of "why" and "how" is slightly different.

Christianity is the source of the modern twisted concept of "evil". Otherwise we would simply say "causing harm". Is there a thread comparing Epicureanism with Christianity?

Buddhists when feeling a sense of "unsatisfactoriness" in oneself might cultivate indifference toward it.

Where as Epicureans when feeling "unsatisfactoriness" might put more effort into cultivating friendship and sharing pleasant and pleasureable experiences with others.

Which has me wondering...how often were festivals, celebrations, shared meal gatherings, etc. part of an ancient Epicurean lifestyle?

Quote from Cassius

does life have a goal or highest good in Buddhism, and if so what is it ?

There could be several goals:

1) the goal is Buddhist practice/meditation of "letting go" and realizing "aimlessness, signlessness, and emptiness" as the path to "nirvana"

2) to become a "bodhisattva of compassion" to help others (a Buddhist teacher)

Quote from Don

I think I should prioritize reading On Anger then read Tsouna's book.

Don, when you have read that, I would be so curious to find out how it compares to modern psychology. Here is a website, has four parts, all very good:

https://www.apa.org/topics/anger/control

Quote from Godfrey

in my first couple of highlights she touched on the pleasure/absence of pain controversy, which got me thinking about some of the issues involved in that debate.

Godfrey, that sounds interesting and am curious to hear more about that.

This is just off the top of my head...Is anything incorrect, or is anything missing?

Quote from Matt

There is nothing “special” about Buddhist doctrine, Its “various” doctrines can 100% be understood by non-Buddhists who can easily analyze it…if a person believes this isn’t the case then most likely they are far more Buddhist than Epicurean.

I don't agree...Buddhism isn't just "doctrine" because it is also a daily practice and how you live your life..You can't just "think" your way to "enlightenment". Enlightenment is for this present life. What all Buddhist schools have in common is dealing with the problem of suffering and dissatisfaction that seem to be part of the human inner experience.

A friend texted these words to me recently:

"I think it’s safe to assume that most of us (meaning all humans) are not overly happy people in general. Life allows for some pleasures here and there…the basics, but real joys are sometimes few and far between. I personally often feel a level of somberness that comes with a litany of experiences."

For myself I at times feel not only somber, but mildly depressed at times. So then Buddhism seeks to deal with this problem. It is a combination of doctrine and practice.

I would really like to see a side-by-side comparison of Buddhism and Epicureanism which shows the differences of how each one deals with feelings of "somberness" and "mild depression" (the kind of sadness which arises due to loss, grief, disappointment, loneliness, lack of freedom, lack of control)...as well as stressful feelings of anxiety, agitation, fear, and anger.

Buddhist meditation helped me with anxiety...but I left Buddhism because it wasn't helping me deal with my feelings of sadness. In fact I think that it made my feelings of sadness worse.

Anybody who had done Buddhist meditation at an organized Buddhist group...I would ask for help on creating this comparison.

And anyone who feels they have good Epicurean practices for dealing with sadness...please help, thank you

In the second paragraph of chapter 1:

Quote

Quote
Thus did Theon give vent to the indignation which the words of Timocrates had worked up within him. Timocrates had been a disciple of the new school; but, quarreling with his master, had fled to the followers of Zeno; and to make the greater merit of his apostacy, and better to gain the hearts of his new friends, poured forth daily execrations on his former teacher, painting him and his disciples in the blackest colours of deformity; revealing, with a countenance distorted as with horror, and a voice hurried and suppressed as from the agonies of dreadful recollections, the secrets of those midnight orgies, where, in the midst of his pupils, the philosopher of Gargettium officiated as master of the cursed ceremonies of riot and impiety

Could this paragraph be partially based on Diogenes Laertius Book X?

About historical cultural context...wondering what life was like back in ancient Greece...

Here is an article on courtesans in ancient Greece,

"hetaira" which translated as "female companion":

https://theconversation.com/ph…e-mind-body-divide-168940

On homosexuality in ancient Greece:

Deviance, if you like | Guardian daily comment | guardian.co.uk

Regarding higher education in ancient Athens:

What Were the 5 Great Schools of Ancient Greek Philosophy?

Five great philosophical traditions originated in ancient Greece: the Platonist, the Aristotelian, the Stoic, the Epicurean, and the Skeptic.

www.thoughtco.com

Education in ancient Greece - Wikipedia

"Buddhism in America"...is very much eclectic. At the Zen Buddhist Temple I attended there were rituals which were "more" Japanese Zen than what most lineages in Japan practice, and so monks from Japan would occassionally come to the Temple to study and practice under the head priest to learn the forms.

When people asked questions about "rebirth" the head priest's answer was very much in line with what Joshua wrote. But yet the head priest never forced or required anyone to hold to any one belief of "rebirth", so that people often interpreted it with a modern twist. Also, in Zen Buddhism rituals are very important and are considered to be the gateway to enlightenment (which goes against the Theravada avoidance of the fetter of attachment to rites and rituals). So Buddhism isn't so cut and dry, even if that would make it easier to talk about, and as Matt appears to hope for.

And this should be a lesson here for Epicureanism: It is really difficult to make people conform to one view of something. Everyone will have their own unique understanding of various points within the doctrine, and even that understanding may evolve and change over time.

So for example: there are now the two "camps"...one who's goal is "tranquil pleasures" vs. the other's goal is "all pleasures which do not lead to greater pains" (and which is our school). This will continue to be an issue and so we probably need to "make peace with it"...reach across this divide and make a truce, because it will be up to each person to decide their goal and also which interpretations best suit their temperament.

And something similar may happen for people within Epicureanism as with Buddhism. (Many people try out multiple schools of Buddhism (Theravada, Zen, Tibetan) before they find the one that feels right to them. Although in Epicureanism right now we don't have the formal level of development, other than what is online, but to me there appears to be two "camps".

Of course we still need to be clear about exactly where we stand here in this forum.

@Cassius...looking forward to hearing what you think?

Another good article for people with mild depression:

Quote

The evidence is clear that social isolation increases a person's risk of depression and can make symptoms more severe and longer-lasting. Of course, when you are depressed, socializing is even more difficult. One solution is to join a group devoted to something for which you have a strong passion.

"For instance, volunteering for a favorite cause can keep you connected with others on a regular basis, plus you have the extra motivation to engage because of your personal interest," says Dr. Mehta. Another way is to join a team that plays a sport you like, such as golf, bowling, or tennis.

The no-drug approach to mild depression - Harvard Health

While antidepressants can relieve and control symptoms of mild or moderate depression, they are not the only option. Many nondrug options are available to help…

www.health.harvard.edu

Okay! So we need to add an option to "volunteer" here on the forum!

Maybe this: "Volunteer to host an Epicurean Zoom Party"...togas optional (but of course some form of clothing required).

Here is a really good article that everyone should read, on the importance of community and mental health, including tips on finding community:

Quote

Mental health heavily influences our quality of life. So it makes sense that mental health, just like physical health, needs to be taken care of and maintained. And one way that it can be maintained is through finding a sense of community.

Community can be defined in many ways, but when simplified down to its most important element, community is all about connection. Community is not just an entity or a group of people, it’s a feeling. It’s feeling connected to others, feeling accepted for who you are and feeling supported. Having connection can help us feel wanted and loved

The Importance of Community and Mental Health | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness

Quote from Cassius

We don't have a FAQ entry on depression. Should we? If we can develop a good strong answer here we can create a FAQ entry and point it to this thread.

I searched online about depression, and the differences between mild depression and major depression. Found some science/medicine based sites...but it was so "depressing" to read, that I can hardly recommend.

Since Epicureans hold science as the favored way of seeing the world, then all we can do is point to modern science, which for moderate and severe levels of depression uses a combination of talk therapy and medication.

The following excerpt is from an article that covers three levels of depression: mild, moderate, and severe:

Quote

Despite the challenges in diagnosis, mild depression is the easiest to treat. Certain lifestyle changes can go a long way in boosting serotonin levels in the brain, which can help fight depressive symptoms.

Helpful lifestyle changes include:

• exercising daily
• adhering to a sleep schedule
• eating a balanced diet rich in fruits and vegetables
• practicing yoga or meditation
• doing activities that reduce stress, such as journaling, reading, or listening to music

Other treatments for mild depression include alternative remedies, such as St. John’s Wort and melatonin supplements. However, supplements can interfere with certain medications. Be sure to ask your doctor before taking any supplements for depression.

A class of antidepressants called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) may be used in some cases. However, these tend to be more effective in people with more severe forms of depression. Recurrent depression tends to respond better to lifestyle changes and forms of talk therapy, such as psychotherapy, than medication.

While medical treatment may not be needed, mild depression won’t necessarily go away on its own. In fact, when left alone, mild depression can progress to more severe forms.

https://www.healthline.com/health/depression/mild-depression

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Quote from Cassius

It is a certainty that Nature gives us nothing other than pleasure and pain as the ultimate foundation of all choice and decision making.
Since I am going to be here for only a short time, I want to experience as much pleasure, and as little pain, as possible.
I consider it to be a certainty that it takes effort to remain alive, and effort means pain, and so I am ready and willing to accept some amount of pain as the price for achieving pleasure.

I think this generally makes sense for me, but yet there are times where I feel physical discomforts and then it becomes a matter of surviving the pain/discomfort. Which brings up the idea that Epicureanism may work best for people with a strong and healthy physical constitution. Unless there is some allowance for the pleasure of release from pain, some people will be left out. Also, sometimes pain or the fear of pain is a greater motivator, and if we can endure a little bit of pain now, to make sure that we don't have greater pain in the future, then that makes sense.

After reading about Jefferson's beliefs (in the above article) I find that he make have somewhat of an eclectic take in his Epicurean perspectives.

Would be curious if any one else has thoughts around this?

https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs

It is important here, that we all see that there are various views begin presented on this thread that are coming from individual opinions, some of which are not based on the deep study of Buddhism.

When it came to my Buddhist understanding, I began to feel that either something was lost in time or lost in translation, or the Hindu religious understanding crept back into Buddhism (and which stamped out Buddhism in India after a certain number of years).

In Buddhism there is the understanding of the present moment experience...of understanding the components of present moment experience...there are objects, and there are sensory organs, and there are the sensory experiences. And consciousness arises from these sensory experiences.

Because if you follow the logic, then actually Buddha was ending the idea of endless reincarnation. In fact, his idea may have been so far out there that very few people actually got it. Basically this: that conciousness depends on the body. This is what I got from studying the Pali Suttas, and reading between the lines so to speak...but basically taking the ideas of Buddha to their logical conclusions.

As for the emphasis on suffering, maybe that too got taken out of it's original teaching. Buddha says in the Pali Suttas..."I teach dukkha (suffering) and the end of dukkkha". And so it originally was a kind of "self-help" teaching. And Buddha tells the story of the raft...you use the raft to cross the river, but once you reach the other side you don't start carrying the raft around, you leave it behind.

So as I think about it, an entire religion formed around Buddha, but evolved way beyond what Buddha intended. (hmm...that happened in Christianity also).

But the main take away here is that Buddhism has as it's goal the removal of suffering.

And Epicureanism has as it's goal the experience of pleasure. So it is a very different orientation. And I am still learning.

Quote from Cassius

But do you FIRST understand WHY this path makes sense?

Someone who skips right to the "application" without understanding may be apt to give up when the going gets tough, or when, as Lucretius says, that person is confronted by the scary or intimidating tales of the religionists or idealists, who suggest that you are following the path of evil by not heeding their definition of "the good."

In short it's important to understand why and how Epicurus embraced pleasure as the good so that you won't be shaken from the course in the inevitable storms of life.

Yes, thank you Cassius! I will carry on with my Epicurean studies

Here is a texting conversation that I had with an Epicurean friend recently (edited for clarity):

Me:

I've been thinking about the complexity of friendship...

1) First you have to meet people and have a conversation (or text conversation).

2) Then you have to discover commonality/common interests.

3) Then you have to discover overlaping needs/goals (a need for a certain goal in friendship).

4) Then a common motivation to mutually engage with each other must arise, which also depends on both people having a certain amount of free time to devote to one another. People who are married in long-term relationships have much less need for friends and also much less time.

Friend's Reply:

I think what we are finding is that a friendship just doesn't happen spontaneously but is frequently the result of a shared "project" on which you are working with another person. There probably has to be a joint goal to keep it all together or else even friendship can be "pointless."

So I think that joint projects are probably the key to at least let a friendship get started at the beginning. Of course in male/female relationships there is the attraction part which can start things, but unless there is a joint project even that will fall apart.

Me:

I think the joint project idea is good...and it also depends on the needs of the people involved...and also the ways that they find pleasure within friendship.

Because if the conversation is -ONLY- about the project then it doesn't really lead to a deeper friendship.

Friend's Reply:

I agree, but it is difficult to assess what friendship really is. You obviously have enjoyment in dealing with a friend, but it isn't just contemplation [conversation?]

- there is action involved "doing things together" is probably the key.

And enjoyment and pleasure are not static. Not everyone can or will be our friend.

Friendship itself is not a goal. Epicurus is right, it is pleasure alone that is intrinsically good. And what can appear to be friendship can die if it does not remain enjoyable.

Me:

More about finding commonalities...it is about what we find enjoyable in friendships. And there is what we can give, but also what we want to get.
And I very much enjoy conversation, the kind that is mutually fullfulling...a back and forth conversation...about anything and everything...no-holds-barred.

But of course some topics I might not know enough about, so then you would have to seek out someone else on those topics (obviously)...and same for you, you might not know enough on certain topics so then I would have to seek out someone else on those other topics.

Friend's Reply:

I think this is where your sister and I would agree that there are personality types among people and that there are good matches and bad matches

Me:

Okay, so are you saying that a certain kind of disposition and attitude toward life makes for a better conversational partner?

Friend's Reply:

Sort of. I think I am saying that conversational styles may exist where some people may understand some people much better than others. And it's not just a matter of being considerate or inconsiderate.

Me:

Yes I do agree. I think it is both conversational style and also each individual has drives and goals which shape how they view the world.

****

Here is what I would add: That there is some kind of pull that we feel toward people that we find conversationally engaging and who also have a pleasant and enjoyable disposition. Over time a common history of shared experiences will build up and this will lead to a feeling of a long-term friendship bond. Yet it seems that there still needs to be a personal dedication to putting in the time and energy to maintain the friendship. In a busy world, that means people would need to prioritize friendship. Not only knowing that pleasure comes from friendship, but actively shaping one's life so that one has time for friendships. Also, when you do find a genuine friend with shared mutual understanding and shared mutual goals, it can be somewhat of a rare situation, and so it would be a very precious pleasure indeed.

Here is my understanding of Buddhism, based on my study and practice:

I think that for many people who go into the study and practice of Buddhism, they are unhappy and they hope to find an answer as to what to do to have a better life. So Buddhism looks at what is causing the suffering, the "dukkha", in life.

From the Pali Sutta, ancient text:

Quote

"Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."

— SN 56.11

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sac…ca1/dukkha.html

And they say that the suffering is due to clinging to unrealistic expectations...and then they say why do people cling? ...because they crave, and why do they crave? ...because they have greed.

The unrealistic expectations are that they want to hold onto things, or that they wish to permenently possess the things that they want, but actually the nature of everything is impermenence, and there is nothing that can be held onto. And then when unpleasant things happen, the urge to resist them and the feeling of aversion or anger arises, but things like being subjected to unpleasant things, and old age, sickness, and death are all inevitable.

So through the disciplined practice of meditation, within Zen Buddhism, they practice "letting go"...and "choiceless awareness"..."not picking or choosing" and also come to "realize" the "true nature of everything" which is "emptiness". And they practice by simplifying one's life and cultivating and practicing Buddhist virtues...the Buddhist precepts and the paramitas (perfections)...

Zen paramitas:

Quote

The six are (1) generosity (dāna), (2) morality (śīla), (3) patience (kṣānti), (4) vigor (vīrya), (5) concentration (dhyāna), and (6) wisdom (prajñā).

Zen Buddhist Precepts:

Quote

The Three Refuges

• I take refuge in the Buddha (the source of the teaching)
• I take refuge in the Dharma (the Buddha’s teaching)
• I take refuge in the Sangha (those who practise the teaching)

The Three Pure Precepts

• Cease from evil. By refraining from that which causes confusion and suffering, the truth will shine of itself
• Do only good. Doing good arises naturally when we cease from evil
• Do good for others. To train in Zen is to devote one’s life to the good of all living things

The Ten Precepts

• Do not take life
• Do not steal
• Do not indulge in abusive or inappropriate sexuality
• Do not lie
• Do not abuse intoxicants
• Do not criticize others
• Do not boast of your attainments and belittle others
• Do not be mean [stingy] in giving Dharma (teaching) or wealth
• Do not harbour anger
• Do not defame the three treasures (do not deny the Buddha within yourself or in others)

https://zenways.org/take-the-zen-precepts/

And for Buddhist "emptiness" there are different ways of explaining this...there is no inner and no outer, there is no center and no edge. All things are empty of intrinsic existence and nature. As for nhilism...this can come from the teaching of "no self" which is the understanding that there is no fixed innate "inner self" because the self arises dependent on many causes and conditions which are in flux.

I think that this understanding of the "no self" can lead to problems. It can lead to a quiet acquiescence in which a person engages with the world in a very passive way. This may work in the communal life of a Zen monastery, but doesn't translate well for the modern Western lifestyle. And then this could lead to a sense of "giving up" on life, for people who are introverted and lack social skills and lack adequate social connections.

So to answer a question that Cassius asked in the very first post...Yes, I think Buddhism leads people to cultivate passivity.

The understanding of pleasure in Buddhism is that it should not be "relied upon", because it is impermenent and ephemeral and therefore it will always lead to more suffering, because try as you might you just can't "hold onto" pleasure.

So.....now to contrast Buddhism with Epicureanism....

The antidote to all the unhealthy passivity of Buddhism....is Epicureanism!

For me....first it is important to understand what the natural and necessary pleasures of life are...and getting clear on what those are...then diligently (and patiently) working toward getting those pleasures. This is my list:

1) eating healthy food

2) an adequate place to live

3) good sleep

4) some form of regular exercise

5) making and maintaining good friendships (could include a life partner)

6) study of Epicurean wisdom philosophy

7) right type of career/job/craft

And...also there is the experience of pleasureable sensations and pleasureable memories, and yet the basics of one's life is a priority and is also the place where the all the sensory enjoyments arise.

Also...there is the anticipation that the basic pleasures will always be there to enjoy. For example, there is ample food to eat and so the pleasure of eating will continually occur every day. There is no need to over-eat, because in a few hours I will be hungry again and can enjoy eating all over again...which also means that there is a way to interact with food so as to bring the most pleasure...eat in a beautiful way...slowly/enjoyably and with pleasureable respect for the food.

In light of the Epicurean goal of a pleasurable life...here are some further ideas about romantic relationships, since a well functioning intimate relationship leads to more enjoyment in life. Here is an interesting article about the importance of common interests in long-term relationships. And so putting in time toward cultivating fun shared activities would be a good investment toward the well-being of a relationship.

Quote

...couples that have similar interests to a similar degree tend to have healthier relationships. These partners show interest in one another, think alike, share passion, enjoy similar adventures, and in the end, bond. These couples fight less because they generally agree on how to invest their energy and finances. Life is better in so many ways for couples who share interests.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/magnet…n-relationships

The Importance of Shared Interests in Relationships

One way to get and remain close to your partner.

www.psychologytoday.com

More tips...Here is a small-talk method called 'FORD'.

Small talk is good for conversations at parties, or meeting new people in new situations, with the goal to make people feel more comfortable. From these kinds of questions, you can begin to see what kinds of things you have in common, which might lead to a friendship. Tip: keep it light and easy, and take turns asking and answering, so that it is a back-and-forth conversation.

F - Family:

"Where are you from originally?"

"Where did you grow up?"

"Do you still have family there?"

"Do you have any brothers or sisters?" or "Did you come from a big or small family?"

If applicable: "How did you meet your _______?"(husband/wife/partner).

If applicable: "Do you have kids? How old are you children?"

"Do you have pets?" "What is your dogs name?" "How old is your dog?"

O - Occupation

"What keeps you busy these days?" (this is a good way to ask, in case they are unemployed).

After they answer then: "Oh, that's interesting, how did you get involved with that?" (or How did you get started with that? How did you get involved with that company?)

How long have you been in your field?

What's the best part of your job?

(or if in school, What's the best part of school? Your favorite course/subject?)

R - Recreation (interests and hobbies) (Make sure you don't take over the conversation... Remember you are looking for similarities).

"What do you do for fun?"

"Do you play any sports?"

"Have you seen any good movies lately?"

"Do you have any hobbies?"

"How did you become interested in that?"

"What do you like to do on weekends?"

"Have you heard the new song by ______?"

"Do you have a favorite restaurant that you like to go to?"

D - Dreams (goals) -- (Smile, listen, learn) (What gets them up in the morning) (motivation and goals, short-term dreams, long-term dreams)

"Any plans for the summer?"

"Have you traveled before?" or "Is this your first trip?

"If you could travel any where in the world where would you go?"

(Ask about what they want to see and do)

If they are working on a project (or taking a course) - "How did you get interested in that?" "What will you do once you finish this project?" (or course)

(If they just finished reading a book) "What did you like about the book?" "What do you want to read next?"

(Source: