Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from DaveT

So, who was Cicero trying to convert to his Platonic belief that eternal virtues are the highest good?

Was he succeeding in his goal? And is that the reason he kept at it, sensing that he was winning the game?

From an article regarding virtues this, on Plato vs. Aristotle.

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Even though there were different Greek philosophers following the same moral view of virtue ethics, their interpretation was slightly different. For example, Plato and Aristotle treated virtues differently. Plato viewed virtue as an end to be sought for, where relations such as friendship could be a means. Aristotle, on the other hand, saw virtue as a means for happiness that safeguarded human relations.

Epicurus' stance seems to me to be built upon Aristotle's ideas, but yet adding in that "pleasure" is beneficial, and the ultimate end.

Philodemus wrote on virtues and vices:

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Philodemus of Gadara wrote extensively about virtues and vices, with surviving fragments from works like On Vices and On Flattery detailing various vices such as arrogance, envy, greed, flattery, and anger, and contrasting them with their opposite virtues. He discussed how vices stem from false beliefs and habits while virtues arise from true beliefs and connection to Epicurean pleasures. Philodemus also explored the therapeutic methods for dealing with vices, such as the "therapy of vice," and the interconnectedness of vices and emotions within the soul.

Source: Google search, AI summary

Here is a scholarly article by Tsouna:

https://ancphil.lsa.umich.edu/-/downloads/osap/21-Tsouna.pdf

I find it interesting the differences in Cicero's "On End" compared to the "Tusculan D."

It is important to note that the virtues are referred to as "the virtues", and indicates the commonly understood set of ancient virtues of prudence, justice, temperance, and courage.

Here is a simple article for reference:

---->The Four Cardinal Virtues in Ancient Greece

(Also, about the wall: The inscription has been assigned on epigraphic grounds to the Hadrianic period, 117–138 CE. (Source: Wikipedia)

Perhaps this thread needs to be renamed to: "Using your own brain instead of AI".

Some are some of my own personal reflections (without external aids) on the above text:

• Happiness and pleasure are the same thing.
• The virtues are the means toward happiness/pleasure.
• Pleasure is the end goal of the best mode of life, not virtue.
• The virtues benefit humans, not animals.
• Nature supplies birds with the ability to fly well, and they don't desert this natural ability.
• Humans need the virtues to bring them back to nature.
• Each virtue points toward the understanding of a particular set of desires, and the ability to discern which desires are natural and which are not.

In the inscription on the wall of Oinoanda it says this:

"I shall discuss folly shortly, the virtues and pleasure now.

If, gentlemen, the point at issue between these people and us involved inquiry into «what is the means of happiness?» and they wanted to say «the virtues» (which would actually be true), it would be unnecessary to take any other step than to agree with them about this, without more ado. But since, as I say, the issue is not «what is the means of happiness?» but «what is happiness and what is the ultimate goal of our nature?», I say both now and always, shouting out loudly to all Greeks and non-Greeks, that pleasure is the end of the best mode of life, while the virtues, which are inopportunely messed about by these people (being transferred from the place of the means to that of the end), are in no way an end, but the means to the end.

Let us therefore now state that this is true, making it our starting-point.

Suppose, then, someone were to ask someone, though it is a naive question, «who is it whom these virtues benefit?», obviously the answer will be «man.» The virtues certainly do not make provision for these birds flying past, enabling them to fly well, or for each of the other animals: they do not desert the nature with which they live and by which they have been engendered; rather it is for the sake of this nature that the virtues do everything and exist.

Each (virtue?) therefore ............... means of (?) ... just as if a mother for whatever reasons sees that the possessing nature has been summoned there, it then being necessary to allow the court to asked what each (virtue?) is doing and for whom .................................... [We must show] both which of the desires are natural and which are not; and in general all things that [are included] in the [former category are easily attained] ...."

The inscripion

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Unfortunately there are lost sections, but it might be a good exercise to summarize what we can...and perhaps bring in other material from PDs, VSs, etc.

(will post more soon)

Welcome to the forum nkulinka

You might like these two overviews, by Cassius:

Happy Birthday DerekC !

Quote from Kalosyni

searching out the motives for all choice and avoidance,

I'm thinking now that there is a difference between motives behind desires, and motives for all choice and avoidance.

Desires are impulses and thoughts.

Choice and avoidance is thinking about pros and cons for a specific action.

But the motive for making choices and avoidances is motivated by understanding the need to make good decisions that lead to good outcomes.

The motive behind all desires is to move toward pleasure or to move away from pain. But the list I've been considering (here in this thread) is a big mash-up of causes of desires, desires, and motivations.

Welcome to the forum ontologix

Quote from ontologix

One of my aims will be to rectify outside this forum the millenium old defamation of Epikuros as a hedonist.

Perhaps more specifically...Epicurus was a hedonist, but he was not a profligate.

Update: At present, it looks like we'll not be having a Meet and Greet Zoom meeting tonight.

If any new participants happen to read this thread and would like to meet up with us, reply to the thread and if we have enough time we'll be glad to sign on if possible.

Hello JMGuimas , please if you are willing to introduce yourself, here in this Welcome thread. It is a necessary step for anyone here on the forum to progress to a higher ranking level.

Quote from Cassius

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and any background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

Also, if you had any other previous reading or studying of other philosophy before discovering Epicurean philosophy. And now, any current studies you doing with Epicurean texts or books. Thank you

Quote from Adrastus

something real, tangible and in their interest that both people are seeking from the other

VS23: Every friendship is an excellence in itself, even though it begins in mutual advantage.

It seems that whether or not friends are Epicurean or not Epicurean, there is still a reason behind any friendship - and both parties need to have an interest in maintaining the friendship.

Quote from Adrastus

cheap childcare or accomplices in board game nights

This sort of points to how everyone has differing reasons for friendship, and some people may feel that they don't have time for creating a deeper friendship (or maybe they are not interested in emotional connection aspects).

Quote from Adrastus

I've got about a half dozen really good friends whom I have, or am courting to be friends, at the Epicurean level of mutual defense and partners in philosophy and that we more or less connect beautifully. Most of them are friends with each other, and talk and plan of deeper communalism, so I suppose this is fairly tribe-like.

Wow, that sounds great!

Quote from Patrikios

Another source to motivate action is our perceived need to react to something received by our senses (e.g. sudden flash, loud noise, unpleasant odor, request from a friend, etc.).

Thank you Patrikios, I'll add those to the list (and will make revised list maybe tommorrow).

I also thought of another one: opinions of others - can work as a motivating factor - but depends on the person and the situation (fear of being shamed or kicked out of a group, or opinions of experts (such as doctors).

Also, empty opinions (unnatural and unnecessary things).

Quote from Kalosyni

So these two things motivate action:

• discontent (physical pain or mental discontent/subtle fear)
• curiousity (wanting to try out a physical sensation or learn something)

Any others?

I just thought of another thing that motivates...

...the memory of something being pleasurable in the past (a natural desire to repeat pleasurable activities).

Also, of importance is starting and maintaining good habits and ending bad habits - which does require reasoning through the advantages and disadvantages.

I just been contemplating how a subtle discontent is actually a motivating force for action. And another motivator is curiousity.

And in the Letter to Menoeceus (as Don pointed out) that the sweet life is brought forth by self-controlled reasoning...as it says in the letter:

"searching out the motives for all choice and avoidance"

So these two things motivate action:

• discontent (physical pain or mental discontent/subtle fear)
• curiousity (wanting to try out a physical sensation or learn something)

Any others?

This post and the one following (by Don) have been copied over from a different thread...to start a discussion on motivation for action.

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Quote from Rolf

That said, sitting on a sun lounger at a resort sipping piña coladas for the rest of my days sounds absolutely awful and would certainly not leave me content.

Letter to Menoeceus:

[132] "For it is not continuous drinkings and revelings, nor the satisfaction of lusts, nor the enjoyment of fish and other luxuries of the wealthy table, which produce a pleasant life, but sober reasoning, searching out the motives for all choice and avoidance, and banishing mere opinions, to which are due the greatest disturbance of the spirit."

Quote from Rolf

I forget who on here said it, but this reminds me a bit of something along the lines of “the perfect/best life is for the gods”. Us mortals are always going to have to compromise like this, and while we can live like the gods for certain periods, we must expect that pains will arise.

From Diogenes Laertius, "wise man sayings" section:

"They say also that there are two ideas of happiness, complete happiness, such as belongs to a god, which admits of no increase, and the happiness which is concerned with the addition and subtraction of pleasures."

Quote from Rolf

That said, sitting on a sun lounger at a resort sipping piña coladas for the rest of my days sounds absolutely awful and would certainly not leave me content.

Letter to Menoeceus:

[132] "For it is not continuous drinkings and revelings, nor the satisfaction of lusts, nor the enjoyment of fish and other luxuries of the wealthy table, which produce a pleasant life, but sober reasoning, searching out the motives for all choice and avoidance, and banishing mere opinions, to which are due the greatest disturbance of the spirit."

Quote from Rolf

I forget who on here said it, but this reminds me a bit of something along the lines of “the perfect/best life is for the gods”. Us mortals are always going to have to compromise like this, and while we can live like the gods for certain periods, we must expect that pains will arise.

From Diogenes Laertius, "wise man sayings" section:

"They say also that there are two ideas of happiness, complete happiness, such as belongs to a god, which admits of no increase, and the happiness which is concerned with the addition and subtraction of pleasures."

From the Letter to Pythocles:

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[95] For on earth too we see many things shining with their own, and many with reflected light. Nor is any celestial phenomenon against these explanations, if one always remembers the method of manifold causes and investigates hypotheses and explanations consistent with them, and does not look to inconsistent notions and emphasize them without cause and so fall back in different ways on different occasions on the method of the single cause.

Epicurus' Letter to Pythocles - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

Welcome to the forum O2x Ohio !