Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

I perceive that in some minds, this statement of only two criteria sounds like Epicurus was referring to "the pleasures of the moment" and "the pains of the moment." ... etc...

Fully agree with all this in your number 2 paragraph. Well stated, Cassius. My understanding is that the "pleasures/pains of the moment" considerations are more inline with the Cyrenaic position.

Quote from Cassius

All the discussion of "natural" and "necessary" is *contextual*, and cannot be reduced to universals that apply to all people at all times and all places. Even breathing can be postponed if by holding your breath to swim out of a cave you save your life. As Torquatus said, the classification has a principle, that things which are most natural and most necessary are generally going to be the easiest to obtain, and therefore can generally be obtained with the least resulting pain, but that is **not** a general statement that nature universally demands that you eat bread and drink water and live in a cave. It is only a general consideration that can serve as a guide when you don't have enough information to be confident that what you can do will be achievable, but over time you learn to know what is and is not possible, so you move out of the cave and you start eating more than bread and drinking more than water, unless circumstances demand it.

I don't think "natural" and "necessary" are as contextual as you're trying to make out. The literal translation of the pertinent Menoikeus section (127-128) is:

Quote from Epicurus - Letter to Menoikeus, 127-8

Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself. [128] The steady contemplation of these things equips one to know how to decide all choice and rejection for the health of the body and for the tranquility of the mind, that is for our physical and our mental existence, since this is the goal of a blessed life.

The 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones' uses ΚΕΝΑΙ which is a form of the same exact word Epicurus uses for the void in "atoms & void."

My reading is:

1. Natural Desires

A. Natural *and* Necessary Desires

i. Necessary for Eudaimonia

ii. Necessary for "Freedom from Disturbance in the Body" (πρὸς τὴν τοῦ σώματος ἀοχλησίαν)

iii. Necessary for Living Itself (πρὸς αὐτὸ τὸ ζῆν)

B. Only Natural Desires (αἱ φυσικαὶ μόνον)

2. Empty, Fruitless "Void" Desires

I find that "the ones which are only natural" interesting. I'm not sure how to interpret that, honestly.

To get back to Cassius' commentary, specifically: "All the discussion of "natural" and "necessary" is *contextual*, and cannot be reduced to universals that apply to all people at all times and all places. Even breathing can be postponed if by holding your breath to swim out of a cave you save your life."

A distinction has to be made between natural/necessary behaviors and "desires." It is a universal that we mammals find breathing, eating, sleeping, and shelter necessary to continue living. Of course, we'll postpone breathing when swimming out of a cave because we can't breathe water and we desire to continue living if at all possible. I don't see that as an example of a contextual desire.

"things which are most natural and most necessary are generally going to be the easiest to obtain, and therefore can generally be obtained with the least resulting pain, but that is **not** a general statement that nature universally demands that you eat bread and drink water and live in a cave."

Your water/cave metaphor seems to be a bit of a non sequitur here. If you're living in a cave, it is going to require quite a bit of effort to obtain bread and make sure you have sufficient water stored away... unless you're living directly beside a spring and have bread delivered to you... in which case you'll need a baker who's willing to trek up the mountain... but then you'll need... and so on.

My understanding is that nature provides sufficient amounts of what we need to live - if we were to be in dire straits - which is why Epicurus, from time to time, limited his food and drink to see how much he could live on and still be satisfied. Then, after his fasting experiment, went back to living "normally" until his next experiment.

Quote from Cassius

I laughed because I am supposed to but I am not sure I get it ? I can see the "pig" double-meaning, but why put the "vay" at the end?

Latin: Veni, vidi, vici (I came, I saw, I conquered)

"Old School" Pig Latin: eni-vay,...

English: Pigs can fly. > Igs-pay an-cay y-flay.

Seen on Facebook.... Made me chuckle...

Joshua : I'm definitely intrigued by the direction you're going. Sedley makes distinctions between singular and plural, but I don't believe in the way you're proposing. I do think some translators gloss over the singular/plural in those sections. I'd be curious to dig into the Greek in those and quantify singulars and plurals.

Thanks for a thought-provoking proposal!

For what it's worth, here is a relevant section from my Menoikeus commentary and translation:

τὸν θεὸν ζῷον "a god (is a) ζῷον. But what is a ζῷον?

ζῷον (zōon) is where English zoology comes from.

LSJ gives two primary definitions:

• living being, animal
• in art, figure, image, not necessarily of animals (or a sign of the Zodiac)

So, unfortunately, at this point in the Letter we can't necessarily resolve the question of what the nature of the gods (or of a god) is according to Epicurus. Some scholars think Epicurus believed the gods were material beings ("living being, animal") somehow living between the various world-systems (cosmos) in the universe. Some think Epicurus believed the gods were mental representations or personifications of the concepts ("figure, image, sign") of blessedness.

...

θεοὶ εἰσιν. "Gods exist." "There are gods."

The implications of those two words have had entire essays written about them. We looked at this a little in 123b with ζώον. But Epicurus is not equivocating here: Gods exist. What he means by this we simply have to discover from his extant works and fragments. Again, if we take Sedley's position, each person has their own personal concept of a god. Many people, many individual gods. Those gods exist.

123f. ἐναργὴς γαρ αὐτῶν ἐστιν ἡ γνῶσις.

• Here's our δέ "on the other hand."
• ἐναργὴς [δέ] ἐστιν αὐτῶν ἡ γνῶσις

"And the knowledge (ἡ γνῶσις (gnōsis)) of them (θεοί "gods", note the plural here) is ἐναργὴς." But what does ἐναργὴς mean?

LSJ provides two primary definitions:

• visible, palpable, in bodily shape, properly of gods appearing in their own forms (in Homer); so of a dream or vision; ex., ἐναργὴς ταῦρος "in visible form a bull, a very bull"
• manifest to the mind's eye, distinct

Epicurus can't mean the first meaning since he's adamant that the gods don't interact with humans. But the second definition coincides with his contention (and the idea of the prolepsis of the gods) that the gods are apprehended by the mind only. In first Principal Doctrine's scholia (i.e., a note added to the text by a later author), we read τοὺς θεοὺς λόγῳ θεωρητούς "the gods are conceived of through contemplation by reasoning." We don't - can't! - see the Epicurean gods with our physical eyes as Homer describes seeing the Olympian gods "in visible form." Homer's gods were εναργής in one sense of the word; Epicurus's in the other sense. The truth of the gods' existence in Epicurus's philosophy takes place entirely in our minds by reasoning through their existence by means of contemplation. But through that contemplation, Epicurus asserts that their existence is εναργής "clearly discernible to us / manifest to us in our minds."

This emphasis on contemplation is interesting in light of the characteristic of the Epicurean sage in Diogenes Laertius Book X.30: μᾶλλόν τε εὐφρανθήσεσθαι τῶν ἄλλων ἐν ταῖς θεωρίαις. I continue to maintain that "in contemplation" is the best translation of ἐν ταῖς θεωρίαις for this characteristic of the sage: "The sage will also enjoy themselves more than others in contemplation, speculation, and theorizing." Many translators see this as referring to state festivals and spectacles. I've explored the use of the word elsewhere in Diogenes Laertius' work as well as in Aristotle online. https://sites.google.com/view/epicurean…tion?authuser=0 If the gods are "manifest" in contemplation, this seems consistent with that characteristic of an Epicurean sage.

Unfortunately, this does nothing to resolve our problem with puzzling out how a god is a ζώον. Are they physically-existent material beings? Are they existing only as mental perceptions manifest merely to the mind's eye? The ambiguous nature of εναργής doesn't necessarily help us fully. It does, however, set up some of Epicurus's clever wordplay contrasting his view with Homer's.

The Data Over Dogma guys did a whole episode debunking the Christian doctrine (not articulated until the 2nd c CE) of creation ex nihilo. It also seems important to note that ex nihilo creation was *not* the general consensus in the ancient world. Although a young Epicurus turned to philosophy when his "schoolmasters ... could not tell him the meaning of "chaos" in Hesiod," he substituted the eternally-existent atoms to explain "where" the universe came from. The pre-existing Chaos provided the building blocks for the cosmos/world-system in Greek mythology even if the elementary school teachers couldn't explain where that came from or what it was to little Epicurus. Schoolmaster there is γραμματιστής or one who literally teaches how to write the letters of the alphabet and other elementary-school level material.

I found the episode fascinating:

Okay, so this is about as close as I could find of κόσμος = modern cosmology. There's even some "fiery ramparts"...

CIRCULAR MAP OF THE UNIVERSE ALL VERSIONS - Pablo Carlos Budassi

other languages / other versions

pablocarlosbudassi.com

See also: https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-…-view-universe/

Quote from Bryan

(As we know, Epicurus uses "atomos" and translating that as "atom" means we use the word that is not the same as modern science. But, I think you would agree, not using "atom" when translating him certainly gives up too much ground. We can use "atom" in our school, and use in its proper and true meaning. )

Oh, I fully agree with using "atom" to translate atomos is fine. Even though they aren't completely analogous from ancient to modern ideas, they are closer, in my opinion, than world and kosmos. Both atomos and atom get at minute particles of matter that make up compound bodies and, for us, molecules. Yeah, I'm not getting on a soapbox over those. (Is that a collective sigh of relief I hear?)

I know I've brought this up ad nauseum at this point and in this thread already, but Lucretius' talk about Epicurus going beyond the "fiery ramparts" of the "mundus" ("world") tells me their concept of the structure of their "world-system" included a fiery "shell or dome" through which Epicurus was able to think beyond and to imagine other such world-systems throughout The All, the entirety of the whole universe. There really is no applicable analogy in modern cosmology unless, in my opinion, one wants to go down the "bubble universe" track. We can assert that "other worlds" is like Star Trek's "strange new worlds" in other solar systems, but I don't believe that was Epicurus's or Lucretius's image of a κοσμος/mundus. Now, could the ancient Epicureans be made to understand the modern concept of solar system, galaxy, etc.? Sure. Given enough evidence, they could probably accept or at least entertain the ideas that modern cosmology provides. But trying to map κοσμος/mundus onto modern concepts is going to be fraught with complications and requiring an ancient culture to adhere to our modern ideas. I think that does a disservice to them and us.

IF we want to think of "other kosmoi" as other planets in other solar systems, that's fine IF we're honest and acknowledge that's most likely not how Epicurus nor Lucretius nor Diogenes of Oenoanda nor the other ancient Epicureans conceived of it.

Quote from Bryan

" is correct, but I do wish for a more elegant solution.

LOL Completely agree, although to quote the philosopher Mick Jagger "You can't always get what you want..."

Quote from Bryan

I agree we should not "update" or add ideas when translating -- but do we have any good arguments or objections to using "galaxies" for "kosmoi"? (We all know the difficulty with the English "world," which now means only one planet).

I agree "world" is problematic, but using "galaxy" obscures the ancient Greek understanding of what a kosmos was. I prefer "world-system" or something like that. Kosmos is not directly translated into a modern idiom.

Quote from Martin

Quote

10. Epicurus includes something that looks a lot like the “Dichotomy of Control” clearly showing they didn’t come up with it but gave it a catchy title.

It seems, "Stoics" or "Stoicism" should be included in this item from Session 4, e.g.

"10. Epicurus includes something that looks a lot like the “Dichotomy of Control” of the Stoics clearly showing they didn’t come up with it but gave it a catchy title."

Agreed! And added. Thanks!

It does have a new intro. I thought it was a good opportunity for anyone who missed the first time around (like new forum members).

Below is my VERY ROUGH first draft of an outline for a week-long (ie, 7 sessions) study session of the letter. Aspirational at this point! I envision a PowerPoint presentation with audio narration. Again, aspirational but I'm putting it online to keep my feet to the fire so to speak. This is also to be read in conjunction with my translation and commentary.

Thoughts welcomed.

Menoikeus Study Outline

1. Session 1: Background/Context
   1. What is the Letter to Menoikeus?
      1. Who is Epicurus?
      2. Who is Menoikeus?
         1. LOL! How do you even pronounce Menoikeus/Menoeceus!
   2. How did the Letter survive? Where is it found?
      1. Include Manuscripts?
   3. General themes
   4. Why study the Letter?
      1. Most complete surviving exposition of Epicurean ethics from Epicurus
   5. Epicurean ethics is built on a foundation of Physics and Epistemology
      1. Diogenes Laertius includes Herodotus letter (physics) first
         1. Stick to sensations and feelings
         2. Nothing comes into being out of what is non-existent.
         3. τὸ πᾶν ἐστι σώματα καὶ κενόν - The Universe (The All) is bodies and void/space/emptiness
         4. There are atoms and bodies composed of atoms.
         5. The Universe is infinite.
      2. And so on… Primary take-away: We live in a material universe.
2. Session 2: The Time to Study and Practice Philosophy Is Always Now! (Verses 121-123)
   1. Greeting
   2. The time to study philosophy is always right now!
      1. Why do we study?
         1. For the health/soundess of the mind/soul/”animating life principle” (πρὸς τὸ κατὰ ψυχὴν ὑγιαῖνον)
      2. Never too young or too old
      3. Never untimely or out of season
         1. Can’t say the season has not yet arrived
         2. Can’t say the proper time has not yet arrived or has passed
      4. Saying it’s not time is the same as saying the time for eudaimonia has not yet arrived or has passed
         1. What is eudaimonia?? We’ll see this again soon below.
            1. Eudaimonia is often translated “happiness”
               1. My opinion: This falls far short!
                  1. IF we use modern positive psychology’s definition of “happiness” = “subjective well-being” maybe.
            2. The Stanford philosophy site gave an explanation of eudaimonia as “The term is perhaps best understood in connection with the success or good fortune a person would enjoy when under the protection of a guardian angel." To me, the concept is better understood as "fortunate, having an inner sense of well-being, resilient, "rich" in the metaphorical sense, confident in one's self-reliance, content (BUT not milquetoast doormat-y contentment), able to appreciate "the little things" and so on. To me, "happy" doesn't fit that semantic hole neatly. Maybe "happiness" or a "sense of happiness." If we can agree that *that* is what "happy" means, I can use the word... but I won't be "happy" about it (From EpicureanFriends post)
   3. Both the young and the old must pursue the love of wisdom (philosophy)
      1. The old can “become young again”
         1. By means of gratitude for all the good things in the past
            1. Bailey:"'by the grateful recollection of the past', ie. of the philosophic truths which he learnt in earlier life."
            2. Boozer: by feeling gratitude for past pleasures!
               1. Bailey is too narrow!
            3. Vatican Saying 17: It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of.
            4. Vatican Saying 19: He who forgets the good things he had yesterday becomes an old man today.
               1. τοῦ γεγονότος ἀμνήμων ἀγαθοῦ γέρων τήμερον γεγένηται.
      2. The young can “at the same time be old/venerable”
         1. "by means of/through the fearlessness of what is intended to be done, what is to come."
         2. The young can get the benefits of being older without living the years yet by being fearless in looking ahead and weighing the consequences of their actions in the future, i.e., seeing themselves as being older and experiencing the consequences of their actions.
   4. “You must study and meditate upon that which produces eudaimonia.”
      1. A life of pleasure leads to eudaimonia. It is a natural result of making pleasure your goal.
         1. Eudaimonia is simply another way of expressing what a life of pleasure is.
   5. For if indeed that is present, we have everything;
   6. if that is not present, we do anything to have it.
   7. “And, Menoikeus, I was continuously exhorting you to practice, to study, and to meditate (καὶ πρᾶττε καὶ μελέτα) on those things which I state distinctly to be the essential elements of living nobly, beautifully, and virtuously. (στοιχεῖα τοῦ καλῶς ζῆν).”
      1. Στοιχεῖα = elements, principles, components, etc.
      2. τοῦ καλῶς ζῆν = of living “kalos”-ly
         1. What is καλος “kalos”?
3. Session 3: First Step to a Good Life - A Correct Understanding of the Gods (123-124)
   1. Πρῶτον - Often translated as “first (in a list)” but better understood as “first” as in “foremost, most prominently”
      1. Understand as “this takes precedence first in your steps to a ‘noble’ life”
   2. the god is a blessed and imperishable thing
      1. τὸν θεὸν ζῷον ἄφθαρτον καὶ μακάριον νομίζων
   3. as is the common, general understanding of the god.
      1. ὡς ἡ κοινὴ τοῦ θεοῦ νόησις ὑπεγράφη
         1. Ὑπεγράφη - an interesting choice of words
   4. believe everything about which a god is able to preserve its own imperishability and blessedness for itself
      1. Do not attribute anything foreign to its incorruptibility or incongruous with the blessedness of the god!
         1. Later in 123: The gods do not exist in the way that the 'hoi polloi' believe them to, because they do not perceive what maintains the gods.
   5. Gods exist!
      1. THIS is a bold, clear statement but entire papers and books have been written on what it means!
      2. Why does Epicurus say “gods exist”?
         1. the knowledge of them is manifest to the mind's eye.
            1. Go into discussion of εναργης
   6. Impiety:
      1. One isn’t “impious” if you believe like the hoi polloi!
         1. You’re “impious” if you take on the beliefs of the hoi polloi.
      2. Why was piety/impiety of importance to Epicurus?
         1. What is ἀσεβὴς?
            1. From ἀ- (a-, “un-”) +‎ σέβομαι (sébomai, “I feel awe”)
      3. Impiety = ᾰ̓σέβειᾰ; Piety = εὐσέβειᾰ (eusebeia)
         1. Philodemus wrote a book titled On Piety (PHerc. 1428)
            1. Authorship is disputed; could be Phaedrus - Philodemus attribution is traditional at this point
               1. peri eusebeias
   7. Prolepses
      1. What is a prolepsis?
         1. What is the relation to hypolepsis, etc?
      2. The hoi polloi are not following prolepses of the god
         1. The hoi polloi have “false, hasty assumptions”
            1. ὑπολήψεις ψευδεῖς = hypolepseis pseudeis
               1. ἀλλ᾽ ὑπολήψεις ψευδεῖς αἱ τῶν πολλῶν ὑπὲρ θεῶν ἀποφάσεις
   8. Don’t believe the gods favor those who worship them or punish those who are “impious” (according to the hoi polloi)
      1. Acknowledge the ambiguity around this section of the text!
4. Session 4: Second Step to a Good Life - Death is Nothing to Us! (124-126)
   1. Nothing does NOT mean trivial!
   2. all pleasure and pain are in perception of the senses and the mind
      1. death is the absolute negation of perception
   3. makes the mortality of life enjoyable
      1. not gaining an endless lifetime for oneself
      2. but taking away the yearning for not dying or immortality.
   4. Take pleasure in life!
      1. there is nothing terrible in living for the one who truly comprehends that there is nothing terrible in not living.
      2. the one who says death is to be feared is foolish, not that there will be pain and distress when it is present but that there is pain in anticipation
         1. because that which is present does not trouble, disquiet, or annoy,
         2. and anticipation itself pains and distresses one fruitlessly.
   5. Death as it is understood by the hoi polloi is nothing to us. They believe death is…
      1. that which causes utter horror,
      2. which causes one to shudder,
      3. that "most utterly horrifying of pains", then is nothing to us.
   6. For us: On the one hand, at the time when we are (that is while we are living), death is not present;
      1. on the other hand, whenever death is present, then we are not (i.e., we don't exist).
         1. Death is neither a concern for those who are living
         2. nor for those whose lives are ended.
   7. The hoi polloi, on the one hand, flee from death as if it is the greatest evil, then,
      1. on the other hand, they desire for themselves an ending of the evil (pain) in living.
   8. the wise one neither begs nor craves for living nor fears not living: Neither to set oneself against living, nor to imagine that it is evil to not live.
      1. Just as the most food is not chosen but that which brings the greatest pleasure;
      2. choose as well not the longest time but that in which one enjoys the fruits of that which bring the greatest pleasure.
   9. So, the one who exhorts, on the one hand, for the one who is young to live nobly; and, on the other hand, the one who is old to come to an end nobly is a good-hearted simpleton not only because life is to be welcomed but also because the practice of living well, nobly, and beautifully and the practice of dying well, nobly, and beautifully are the same.
      1. But far worse is the one who says, on the one hand, it is well not to be born; or, on the other hand,
         1. QUOTED PASSAGE: "failing this, to pass through the gates of Hades as soon as possible."
      2. [127] On the one hand, if what they say is persuasive, how does one not depart from life?
         1. For this is readily at hand, if indeed one was to resolve oneself steadfastly to this.
         2. If, on the other hand, this is in jest, one is foolish for making fun of things which do not admit of this.
   10. Epicurus includes something that looks a lot like the Stoic's “Dichotomy of Control” clearly showing the Stoics didn’t come up with it but just gave it a catchy title. Marketing evidently wins (egads)
       1. Remember that what will be is not completely within our control nor completely outside our control, so that we will not completely expect it to happen nor be completely disappointed if it does not happen. (Saint-Andre)
5. Session 5: Third Step to a Good Life - Understand Your Desires And Their Role in Pleasure (127-130)
   1. Division of the “Desires” (NOTE: Not Pleasures!!)
      1. Natural and groundless/empty φυσικαί, αἱ δὲ κεναί
         1. Brief digression on “natural” and “empty”
         2. among the natural desires
            1. some are natural and necessary
            2. others are merely natural
               1. among the necessary desires
                  1. some are necessary for happiness
                  2. some for physical health
                  3. some for life itself.
      2. The division of desires provides criteria for ALL the choices we make
         1. All choices are “
            1. The steady contemplation of these facts enables you to understand everything that you accept or reject in terms of the health of the body and the serenity of the soul — since that is the goal of a completely happy life.
         2. Our every action is done so that we will not be in pain or fear.
            1. As soon as we achieve this, the soul is released from every storm, since an animal has no other need and must seek nothing else to complete the goodness of body and soul.
            2. Thus we need pleasure only when we are in pain caused by its absence; but when we are not in pain then we have no need of pleasure.
               1. NOTE: This needs to be parsed and explained, especially the “no need of pleasure” οὐκέτι τῆς ἡδονῆς δεόμεθα.
   2. This is why we say that pleasure is the beginning and the end of a completely happy life.
      1. For we recognize it as the primary and innate good, we honor it in everything we accept or reject, and we achieve it if we judge every good thing by the standard of how that thing affects us
      2. And because this is the primary and inborn good, we do not choose every pleasure.
         1. we pass up many pleasures when we will gain more of what we need from doing so.
         2. And we consider many pains to be better than pleasures, if we experience a greater pleasure for a long time from having endured those pains.
            1. So every pleasure is a good thing because its nature is favorable to us,
               1. yet not every pleasure is to be chosen
               2. just as every pain is a bad thing,
                  1. yet not every pain is always to be shunned.
                  2. It is proper to make all these decisions through measuring things side by side and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages, for sometimes we treat a good thing as bad and a bad thing as good.
6. Session 6: Fourth Step to a Good Life - Self-Reliance & the Meaning of Pleasure (Verses 130-132)
   1. we believe αὐτάρκεια is a great good.
      1. What is we αὐτάρκεια?
      2. It’s not being satisfied with ONLY a few things..
         1. But knowing you COULD be content with few things even if we were to have many possessions.
            1. If this is the case, extravagance can be enjoyed when it becomes available… but we don’t NEED it t be happy.
      3. A simple meal of hearty, wholesome bread and spring water delivers the most extreme pleasure whenever food and drink have been brought to bear against hunger and thirst; and, when extravagant experiences do come up every once in a while, they are experienced more intensely by us, and we are better able to fearlessly face the vicissitudes of fortune.
         1. To emphasize again, Epicurus is not advocating asceticism in these passages and is not requiring us to shun extravagant, lavish, or expensive experiences. First, he calls us to learn to really take pleasure in a simple, everyday meal. Meditate on the fact that if you're really hungry, some barley bread or porridge brought to bear against your hunger can truly be the height of pleasure.
      4. So, when we say REPEATEDLY “pleasure is the goal”...
         1. λέγωμεν (subjunctive) - The subjunctive mood has several uses. I believe what's going on here is the subjunctive with λέγωμεν in the indefinite clause is an exhortation "referring to repeated actions in indefinite present time." So what Epicurus is saying is that "we repeatedly say 'pleasure is the τέλος' all the time" when he uses λέγωμεν. Yes, you can say all that with one word in Greek.
         2. We do NOT say:
            1. the pleasure of those who are prodigal
            2. The pleasure of those stuck in delighting in pleasures arising from circumstances outside of ourselves like those who are ignorant,
            3. The pleasure of those who don't agree with us
            4. The pleasure of those who believe wrongly
         3. What we MEAN is that which neither pains the body nor troubles the mind.
         4. It is NOT:
            1. an endless string of drinking parties
            2. (and endless string of) festivals
            3. Taking advantage of slaves and women
            4. An extravagant table of fish and other delicacies.
         5. A Sweet Life is brought forth by “self-controlled reasoning and examining the cause of every choice and rejection and driving out the greatest number of opinions that take hold of the mind and bring confusion and trouble.”
7. Session 7: The Foundation of all is Practical Wisdom & Epicurus’s Final Instructions (132-135)
   1. The foundation of “all these” (these steps to a good life) is practical wisdom
      1. Φρόνησις - phronesis
         1. What is phronesis?
      2. from practical wisdom springs forth all the remaining virtues (wisdom, morality, and justice), teaching us that a pleasurable life does not exist without the traits of wisdom, morality, and justice; nor do the traits of wisdom, morality, and justice without pleasure: because the virtues grow together with a pleasurable life and the pleasurable life is inseparable from these.
         1. This is a restatement of Principal Doctrine 5!
   2. whom do you consider is better or more powerful than:
      1. one who holds pious beliefs concerning the gods;
      2. one who has absolutely no fears concerning death;
      3. one who has rationally determined the τέλος of one's natural state; and the
      4. one who grasps that, on the one hand, good things (namely pleasures) are both easily attained and easily secured, and, on the other hand, evil things (or pains) are either short in time or brief in suffering;
      5. someone who laughs at Fate which is introduced onto the stage of life by many as the mistress of all things?
         1. For that person, even though some things happen
            1. by necessity,
            2. some by chance, and
            3. some by our own power, for although necessity is beyond our control,
         2. they see that chance is unstable and there is no other master beyond themselves, so that praise and its opposite are inseparably connected to themselves. (NOTE: BACK TO AUTARKIA!)
      6. Because of this (having self-reliance as explained above):
         1. it is better to follow the stories of the gods than to be enslaved by the deterministic decrees of the old natural philosophers,
            1. because necessity is not moved by prayer;
         2. and such a one accepts that Fortune is not a god, as the hoi polloi understand (for a god does nothing in a disorderly or haphazardly manner); And it is not the uncertain cause of everything, for one cannot think it can grant good or evil for a person’s blessed life; however, it does furnish for oneself the starting point of great goods and great evils,
            1. [135] believing that it is better to be unfortunate rationally than fortunate irrationally because it is better to have been deciding the noble way in accomplishing one's actions and to have been foiled than having decided the bad way and to succeed by means of chance.
   3. Epicurus’s Final Instruction to Menoikeus (and so to us)
      1. Meditate day and night then on this and similar things
         1. by yourself as well as together with those like yourself.
         2. And never, neither awake nor in sleep, throw yourself into confusion, and
         3. you will live as a god among humans; because no person who lives among eternal pleasures is like a mortal being.
            1. WHAT ARE ETERNAL PLEASURES (Good things)?
               1. ἐν ἀθανάτοις ἀγαθοῖς "in the midst of everlasting good things (pleasure)." - the word is athanatois - “undying”
   4. Closing thoughts and additional resources (books, EpicureanFriends, etc.)

Finite time and infinite time contain the same amount of joy, if its limits are measured out through reasoning. [Saint-Andre translation; Also VS22, by the way]

Unlimited time and limited time afford an equal amount of pleasure, if we measure the limits of that pleasure by reason. [Hicks]

See also:

Thread

VS22 - Source in Vat.gr.1950

Same as PD19 (supposedly)...

PD19 (Saint-Andre translation):

Finite time and infinite time contain the same amount of joy, if its limits are measured out through reasoning.

ὁ ἄπειρος χρόνος ἴσην ἔχει τὴν ἡδονὴν καὶ ὁ πεπερασμένος, ἐάν τις αὐτῆς τὰ πέρατα καταμετρήσῃ τῷ λογισμῷ.

VS22 from manuscript: https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1950.pt.2/0256

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/3965/

(Big red capital omicron) ὁ ἄπειρος χρόνος καὶ ὁ πεπερασμένος…

Don

July 15, 2023 at 4:32 PM

I don't necessarily like "joy" instead of pleasure. The word is ἡδονὴν and I feel it's important to show it is one of the feelings: pleasure and pain, which led Joshua (I believe) to ask the insightful question that he did.

I also think it's important to disregard the PD numbers. They weren't in the original. And I believe we need to read the full text on this topic in context:

As soon as the pain produced by the lack of something is removed, pleasure in the flesh is not increased but only embellished. Yet the limit of enjoyment in the mind is produced by thinking through these very things and similar things, which once provoked the greatest fears in the mind. Finite time and infinite time contain the same amount of joy (pleasure), if its limits are measured out through reasoning. The flesh assumes that the limits of joy (pleasure) are infinite, and that infinite joy can be produced only through infinite time. But the mind, thinking through the goal and limits of the flesh and dissolving fears about eternity, produces a complete way of life and therefore has no need of infinite time; yet the mind does not flee from joy, nor when events cause it to exit from life does it look back as if it has missed any aspect of the best life. One who perceives the limits of life knows how easy it is to expel the pain produced by a lack of something and to make one's entire life complete; so that there is no need for the things that are achieved through struggle.

Now, if we would switch pleasure and pain, how does that affect the meaning of this section? Can we even do it? From the first line:

As soon as the pain produced by the lack of something is removed...

There is no "pleasure produced by the lack of something" unless it is the pleasure of the lack of pain. So, it seems to me that the "the same amount of joy (pleasure)" can't be substituted for "the same amount of pain" because pain seems, by definition, to be produced by a lack of something? So while the question can be asked semantically, it can't really be asked due to the parameters being set out. The question is a sensible question on its face, but it can't really be asked or answered in reality. I think??

I guess we'd have to ask what is the limit of pain? The complete lack of pleasure, I suppose? If we do try that experiment:

As soon as the pleasure produced by the lack of something is removed, pain in the flesh is not increased but only embellished. Yet the limit of pain in the mind is produced by thinking through these very things and similar things, which once provoked the greatest joy in the mind. Finite time and infinite time contain the same amount of pain, if its limits are measured out through reasoning. The flesh assumes that the limits of pain are infinite, and that infinite pain can be produced only through infinite time. But the mind, thinking through the goal and limits of the flesh and dissolving fears about eternity, produces a complete way of life and therefore has no need of infinite time; yet the mind does not flee from pain, nor when events cause it to exit from life does it look back as if it has missed any aspect of the worst life. One who perceives the limits of life knows how easy it is to expel the pleasure produced by a lack of something and to make one's entire life complete; so that there is no need for the things that are achieved through struggle.

LOL It's getting late... so I'll leave this as a writing prompt if nothing else. Look forward to others' thoughts!

In commemoration of tonight's anniversary:

Apollo 11 - NASA

The primary objective of Apollo 11 was to complete a national goal set by President John F. Kennedy on May 25, 1961: perform a crewed lunar landing and return…

www.nasa.gov

The Apollo 11 moon landing, in photos | CNN

www.cnn.com

(and to answer Cassius question during tonight's conversation: The photographs from the Moon were in color, the video feed was B&W)

Glad I could join the conversation this evening. Blessed Twentieth. Η ΜΑΚΑΡΙΑΣ ΕΙΚΑΣ !

ἄξομεν ἐκ λιτῆς εἰκάδα πιοτέρην.

"From simple fare, we will richly celebrate the Twentieth."

That's my take on the paraphrase of the last line of Philodemus' epigram. I don't particularly like the usual "instead of simply." I think the "out of.." gets at enjoying friends and food without needing a banquet.

Happy Twentieth y'all!

Mentions of ἄπειρόν (infinity) in Principal Doctrines: These are a little more hidden by translations that the Herodotus references. The etymology of the word is important to point out: From ἀ- (a-, “not”) +‎ πεῖραρ (peîrar), πέρας (péras, “end, limit”).

[χιιι.] Οὐθὲν ὄφελος ἦν τὴν κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπους ἀσφάλειαν κατασκευάζεσθαι τῶν ἄνωθεν ὑπόπτων καθεστώτων καὶ τῶν ὑπὸ γῆς καὶ ἁπλῶς τῶν *ἐν τῷ ἀπείρῳ.*
13. It is useless to be safe from other people while retaining suspicions about what is above and below the earth and in general *about the infinite unknown*. (Saint-Andre)
13. There would be no advantage in providing security against our fellow-men, so long as we were alarmed by occurrences over our heads or beneath the earth or in general by whatever happens *in the boundless universe* (ἐν τῷ ἀπείρῳ). (Hicks)

[χϝ.] Ὁ τῆς φύσεως πλοῦτος καὶ ὥρισται καὶ εὐπόριστός ἐστιν: ὁ δὲ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν *εἰς ἄπειρον* ἐκπίπτει.
15. Natural wealth is both limited and easy to acquire, but the riches incited by groundless opinion *have no end.* (Saint-Andre)
15. Nature's wealth at once has its bounds and is easy to procure ; but the wealth of vain fancies recedes *to an infinite distance*. (Hicks)

[χιχ.] Ὁ ἄπειρος χρόνος ἴσην ἔχει τὴν ἡδονὴν καὶ ὁ πεπερασμένος, ἐάν τις αὐτῆς τὰ πέρατα καταμετρήσῃ τῷ λογισμῷ.
19. Finite time and infinite time (Ὁ ἄπειρος χρόνος) contain the same amount of joy, if its limits are measured out through reasoning. (Saint-Andre)
19. Unlimited time (Ὁ ἄπειρος χρόνος) and limited time afford an equal amount of pleasure, if we measure the limits of that pleasure by reason. (Hicks)

[χχ.] Ἡ μὲν σὰρξ ἀπέλαβε τὰ πέρατα τῆς ἡδονῆς ἄπειρα, καὶ ἄπειρος αὐτὴν χρόνος παρεσκεύασεν. ἡ δὲ διάνοια τοῦ τῆς σαρκὸς τέλους καὶ πέρατος λαβοῦσα τὸν ἐπιλογισμὸν καὶ τοὺς ὑπὲρ τοῦ αἰῶνος φόβους ἐκλύσασα τὸν παντελῆ βίον παρεσκεύασεν, καὶ οὐθὲν ἔτι τοῦ ἀπείρου χρόνου προσεδεήθη: <οὐ> μὴν ἀλλ᾽ οὔτε ἔφυγε τὴν ἡδονήν, οὐθ᾽ ἡνίκα τὴν ἐξαγωγὴν ἐκ τοῦ ζῆν τὰ πράγματα παρεσκεύαζεν, ὡς ἐλλείπουσά τι τοῦ ἀρίστου βίου κατέστρεφεν.
20. The flesh assumes that the limits of joy are infinite (τῆς ἡδονῆς ἄπειρα), and that infinite joy can be produced only through infinite (ἄπειρος) time. But the mind, thinking through the goal and limits of the flesh and dissolving fears about eternity, produces a complete way of life and therefore has no need of infinite time (τοῦ ἀπείρου χρόνου); yet the mind does not flee from joy, nor when events cause it to exit from life does it look back as if it has missed any aspect of the best life. (Saint-Andre)
20. The flesh receives as unlimited (ἄπειρα) the limits of pleasure ; and to provide it requires unlimited (ἄπειρος) time. But the mind, grasping in thought what the end and limit of the flesh is, and banishing the terrors of futurity, procures a complete and perfect life, and has no longer any need of unlimited time (τοῦ ἀπείρου χρόνου). Nevertheless it does not shun pleasure, and even in the hour of death, when ushered out of existence by circumstances, the mind does not lack enjoyment of the best life. (Hicks)