Posts by Don

Quote from EricR

I personally am quite comfortable with a supernatural god being invoked if it draws someone's attention to gratitude. I don't know what may or may not lay beyond, but I do know that being grateful for my days promotes a happier time here. I realize that is anathema to this site, but I gotta be me!

I can understand where you're coming from on that, and Epicurean philosophy certainly makes room for "gods" as everyone knows from the long threads on this site. However, Steindl-Rast - a Christian monk - successfully demonstrates that we can be grateful without bringing in God/god.

From my perspective, one danger of seeing a supernatural god/God as the recipient of gratitude sets up the possibility that thinking God/god can decide to take it away, to punish one for not being grateful to him/her. I think it's better to be grateful to "blessed Nature" or better other people and leave out the divine middleman.

That said, of course, I respect your right for you to be you

Spot on, @EricR . Thank you for that. Ευχαριστώ.

I would note, too, that there was no invocation of a supernatural god in that video. Just be grateful for the day and the experience of life and nature and our fellow human beings.

Fragment 469. Praise be to blessed Nature: she has made what is necessary easy to get, and what is not easy to get unnecessary. χάρις τῇ μακαρίᾳ φύσει ὅτι τὰ ἀναγκαῖα ἐποίησεν εὐπόριστα, τὰ δὲ δυσπόριστα οὐκ ἀναγκαῖα.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, χάρις

Sorry, I can't let this go now.

I do see that all three words could be parsed as being in the accusative case: αὐτὸν Πλάτωνα χρυσοῦν but I'm still not convinced that χρυσουν has to be parsed that way but that could just be due to my ignorance. Regardless, I think Joshua has brought up some interesting connotations of "golden" whether or not we're looking at an accusative case noun or a participle.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, χρύσεος

Socrates is still a jerk btw.

Forgot to add

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, χρυ_σόω

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - χρυσόω - to gild (v.)

Look at Joshua parsing the Greek! That makes me so happy!! (It's kind of fun, isn't it?)

At first read, I don't see anything wrong with your parsing of χρυσοῦν. Here's the Wiktionary entry for the Attic form of χρῡ́σεος

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=χρυσοῦς&oldid=55002924

But if it's from χρυσόω, the present active neuter participle would be χρυσοῦν with the same circumflex over the upsilon. So you're spot on there from my meager knowledge.

Joshua 's analogy of "flat" Plato to "gold-leaf, gilded' Plato is intriguing! Gold leaf is really flatter than flat. It's barely there.

Another possible source *could* be, since we're blue-skying it - or even a complement to Joshua's idea - is that Plato just gilded himself with his teacher Socrates' ideas or used Socrates to gild his own ideas.

Since it would be a present active neuter participle, it would probably be translated as "Gilding" I think, so "Gilding Plato"? The one who is gilding? "... And Plato himself gilding." Even so, no matter how that sentence is parsed, the χρυσοῦν < χρυσόω option raises some intriguing possibilities!

Thanks for the food for thought!! Great job!

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

Epicurus gets at what her looked like writing to Menoikeus.

Do you think it's safe to presume that letter was written soon after arrival in Athens?

I know people say the style is different and we can presume something from that, but frankly I'm not sure how to interpret that.

Safe as any literary critical analysis. My main point was simply to urge us to remember that Epicurus was a living, breathing human being who lived a full life from youngster with his parents through old age.

Something to keep in mind with the images:

Epicurus was around 35 when he moved to Athens for good.

He died around 71/72 years old.

So, a younger (yes, 30s is younger! ) Epicurus gets at what her looked like writing to Menoikeus.

Grey-haired Epicurus is when he's established and celebrating his birthday with everyone in the Garden.

I believe I posted this paper to another thread, but I'm putting it here for its pertinence to this topic:

Lucretius on the Divine: DRN 3.17-30, 5.1161-93, and 6.68-79

Lucretius on the Divine: DRN 3.17-30, 5.1161-93, and 6.68-79

www.academia.edu

He's Eckerman's info. He may be someone to explore further.

Christopher Eckerman | College of Arts and Sciences

Chris Eckerman | University of Oregon - Academia.edu

There are several Lucretius papers posted at his Academia page!

Kurzgesagt on "up and down" and frames of reference.

Thank you! Ευχαριστώ!

Here's one of the papers in that paper's bibliography:

The Epicurean Philosopher as Hellenistic Poet

The Epicurean Philosopher as Hellenistic Poet

www.academia.edu

I haven't read it yet, but if the current one is any indication, it may be interesting.

PS: Joshua may be particularly interested in this one.

I forgot to remind everyone of @Nate 's compilation of all the PDs first:

Thread

Kuriai Doxai - A Compilation of Translations by Nathan Bartman

This thread is being set up for discussion of Nate's tremendously valuable work in compiling various translations of each of the Principal Doctrines , which can be found here:

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/filebase/file/44/ For the purpose of ongoing discussion of this work, including suggestions, corrections, proposed additions, etc -- please post those comments here in this thread.

Thank you to Nate, and thanks to all who assist in this project!

Cassius

December 29, 2021 at 1:57 PM

For anyone who's interested, here are my personal notes on PD3 and PD4...

PD3 Ὅρος τοῦ μεγέθους τῶν ἡδονῶν ἡ παντὸς τοῦ ἀλγοῦντος ὑπεξαίρεσις. ὅπου δ’ ἂν τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐνῇ, καθ’ ὃν ἂν χρόνον ᾖ, οὐκ ἔστι τὸ ἀλγοῦν ἢ τὸ λυπούμενον ἢ τὸ συναμφότερον.

• Ὅρος limit, rule, standard. A boundary or marker stone Masc. 2nd declension.
• μεγέθος of degree, greatness, magnitude.
  • παντός genitive singular masculine and neuter of πᾶς
  • (in the plural) all, every, each
  • (in the singular) whole
• άλγος pain (of either mind or body), sorrow, trouble, grief, distress, woe
  • LSJ: bodily pain
• ὑπεξαιρέω
  • I. to take away from below, αἷμα ὑπ. to drain away blood, Soph.
  • 2. to make away with, to destroy gradually, Eur.; τοὐπίκλημʼ ὑπεξελών having done away with the charge, Soph.:—Pass., Hdt., Thuc.
  • II. Mid. to take out privily for oneself, steal away, Il.
  • 2. to put aside, except, exclude, Plat., Dem.

εως, ἡ, A removal, τοῦ ἀλγοῦντος Epicur.Sent.3 (ἐξαίρεσις a better reading, acc. to Demetr.Lac.Herc.1012.23); τοῦ ἀλλοτρίου Gal.14.681; τῶν ἀποφατικῶν Stoic.2.84; μεθ' ὑπεξαιρέσεως with a reservation, Epict.Ench.2.2, M.Ant.4.1, Stoic.3.149, cf. D.S. 12.21 (pl.), Artem.1.52; καθ' ὑπεξαίρεσίν τινος S.E.M.8.479; εἶχεν ὑ. τοῦ μὴ ὅμοιον εἶναι . . A.D. Adv.205.21: hence in Rhet., a treating as exceptional, Alex.Fig.1.7. 2 refutation, opp. πίστις, Phld.Rh. 1.202 S. (pl.). ὅπου where ἥδομαι

• to be pleased, enjoy oneself

ἡδόμενον neuter participle λυπούμενον neuter middle/passive participle of λυπεω

• I. to give pain to, to pain, distress, grieve, vex, annoy, Hdt., Trag., etc.; ἡ θώραξ λ. distresses by its weight, Xen.:—absol. to cause pain or grief, Soph.
• 2. of marauders, to harass, annoy by constant attacks, Hdt., Thuc., etc.
• II. Pass. with fut. mid. to be pained, grieved, distressed, Theogn., etc.; μὴ λυπέεο be not distressed, Hdt.:—c. acc. cogn., λύπας λυπεῖσθαι Plat.:—also c. acc. rei, to grieve about a thing, Soph.:—absol. to feel pain, Eur., etc.

συναμφότερον accusative singular masculine < συν + ἀμφότερον

• of two or more things taken together + both together

[Don translation - "The limit of the magnitude of pleasure (is) the whole of the removal of that which causes pain. Where that which gives pleasure exists, during the time it is present, there is neither pain nor that which causes pain in body or mind nor either of these together." (Clunky translation, but a start.)]

Hicks translation

3The magnitude of pleasures is limited by the removal of all pain. Wherever there is pleasure, so long as it is present, there is no pain either of body or of mind or both.

Saint-Andre translation

3The limit of enjoyment is the removal of all pains. Wherever and for however long pleasure is present, there is neither bodily pain nor mental distress.

[St-Andre note 3] The word ἡδονή is often translated solely as "pleasure"; however, depending on the context I also translate it as "joy", "delight", "enjoyment", or even "happiness" in the modern sense because the Greek word ἡδονή refers to any physical, emotional, or mental state that is filled with sweetness (ἡδύς), whereas the English word "pleasure" carries stronger connotations of a purely physical state (although compare phrases such as "the pleasures of philosophy"). Furthermore, although there is no hard and fast distinction between ἄλγος as bodily pain and λυπούμενος as mental distress, the former word tends to be used more in relation to the body and the latter more in relation to the mind or emotions; see also Principal Doctrine #10. For other texts that emphasize the concept of a natural limit to enjoyment, see Principal Doctrines #11, #15, #18, #19, #20, as well as Letter to Menoikos, Section 133, Vatican Saying #35, and Fragment #548.

Fragment 68. To those who are able to reason it out, the highest and surest joy is found in the stable health of the body and a firm confidence in keeping it. [note] τὸ γὰρ εὐσταθὲς σαρκὸς κατάστημα καὶ τὸ περὶ ταύτης πιστὸν ἔλπισμα τὴν ἀκροτάτην χαρὰν καὶ βεβαιοτάτην ἔχει τοῖς ἐπιλογίζεσθαι δυναμένοις.

Vatican Saying 33. The body cries out to not be hungry, not be thirsty, not be cold. Anyone who has these things, and who is confident of continuing to have them, can rival the gods for happiness. [note] σαρκὸς φωνὴ τὸ μὴ πεινῆν, τὸ μὴ διψῆν, τὸ μὴ ῥιγοῦν· ταῦτα γὰρ ἔχων τις καὶ ἐλπίζων ἕξειν κἂν <διὶ> ὑπὲρ εὐδαιμονίας μαχέσαιτο.

Fragment 70. Beauty and virtue and such are worthy of honor, if they bring joy; but if not then bid them farewell! [note] τιμητέον τὸ καλὸν καὶ τὰς ἀρετὰς καὶ τοιουτότροπα, ἐὰν ἡδονὴν παρασκευάζῃ· ἐὰν δὲ μὴ παρασκευάζῃ χαίρειν ἐατέον.

PD4 Οὐ χρονίζει τὸ ἀλγοῦν συνεχῶς ἐν τῇ σαρκί, ἀλλὰ τὸ μὲν ἄκρον τὸν ἐλάχιστον χρόνον πάρεστι, τὸ δὲ μόνον ὑπερτεῖνον τὸ ἡδόμενον κατὰ σάρκα οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας συμβαίνει· αἱ δὲ πολυχρόνιοι τῶν ἀρρωστιῶν πλεονάζον ἔχουσι τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ ἤ περ τὸ ἀλγοῦν.

Parsed:

• τὸ ἀλγοῦν συνεχῶς Οὐ χρονίζει ἐν τῇ σαρκί,
  • Continuous pain does not linger in the body,
  • ἄλγος I. pain of body, Il., Soph. 2. pain of mind, grief, distress, Hom. II. anything that causes pain, Bion., Anth.
  • συνεχως continuously
  • χρονίζω I. intr. to spend time, Hdt.: to take time, tarry, linger, delay, be slow, Aesch., Thuc.; c. inf. to delay to do, NTest. 2. of things, χρονίζον μένειν to remain long, Aesch. II. Pass. to be prolonged or protracted, id=Aesch.
• μὲν ἀλλὰ τὸ ἄκρον τὸν ἐλάχιστον χρόνον πάρεστι
  • but, on the one hand, the highest point is present for the shortest time,
  • ἐλάχιστος Sup. of ἐλαχύς, comp. ἐλάσσων, I. the smallest, least, οὐκ ἐλ. Hhymn., Hdt., etc.; ἐλαχίστου λόγου of least account, id=Hdt.; περὶ ἐλαχίστου ποιεῖσθαι Plat. 2. of Time, shortest, διʼ ἐλαχίστου [sc. χρόνου] Thuc.; διʼ ἐλαχίστης βουλῆς with shortest deliberation, id=Thuc.
  • παρεστι to be present in our at παρά + ειμι
• δὲ τὸ μόνον ὑπερτεῖνον τὸ ἡδόμενον κατὰ σάρκα οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας συμβαίνει·
  • on the other hand...that which is only extends
  • That which is only pleasurable extends Through the body not many days
  • μονος alone, only, unique
  • ὑπερ + τείνω < 1. to stretch, extend, 2. to spread, 3. to exert, push to the limit, strain
  • ἡδόμενον neuter participle: being pleased, enjoying oneself
  • κατα + acc = through
  • σάρκα f (plural σάρκες) nom & acc
    • (biology) flesh
    • (botany) pulp, flesh
  • κατὰ σάρκα = through the body

συμβαίνει

• II. metaph. to come together, come to an agreement, come to terms, Lat. convenire, τινί with another, Hdt., attic; c. inf., ς. ὑπήκοοι εἶναι Thuc.; Pass., of the terms, to be agreed on, id=Thuc.
• 2. of things, to coincide or correspond with, c. dat., Hdt., attic:—absol., Trag., etc.

δὲ αἱ πολυχρόνιοι τῶν ἀρρωστιῶν πλεονάζον ἔχουσι τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ ἤ περ τὸ ἀλγοῦν. (2 prepositional phrases) πολυχρόνιος

• I. long-existing, of olden time, ancient, Hhymn., Hdt., Xen.
• II. lasting for long, Arist.:—comp. -ώτερος, Plat.; Sup. -ώτατος, Xen.

αἱ πολυχρόνιοι τῶν ἀρρωστιῶν = the long-lasting days of sickness ("illnesses of long duration") περ intensifies following word "very" αρρωστιών f Genitive plural form of αρρώστια

• malady, sickness, illness
• disease

πλεονάζω

• to presume on
• to be superfluous, more than enough
• (of a writer) to be prolix or tedious

Hicks translation

4Continuous pain does not last long in the flesh, and pain, if extreme, is present a very short time, and even that degree of pain which barely outweighs pleasure in the flesh does not occur for many days together. Illnesses of long duration even permit of an excess of pleasure over pain in the flesh.

Saint-Andre translation

4Pain does not last continuously in the flesh; instead, the sharpest pain lasts the shortest time, a pain that exceeds bodily pleasure lasts only a few days, and diseases that last a long time involve delights that exceed their pains.

Translation from attalus:

4 Pain does not abide continuously in the flesh, but in its extremity it is present only a very short time. That pain which only just exceeds the pleasure in the flesh, does not last many days. But long diseases have in them more that is pleasant than painful to the flesh.

Translation from Epicurus.info

4) Continuous physical pain does not last long. Instead, extreme pain lasts only a very short time, and even less-extreme pain does not last for many days at once. Even protracted diseases allow periods of physical comfort that exceed feelings of pain.

LOL! That is one HAPPY pig!

Quote from Cassius

"pink" includes all shades of pink

I like that, too.

So, by definition: "Pleasure" includes all shades of pleasure in this analysis (which I think is the right one).

Which then follows on that where there is pleasure, there is not pain.

So, it's not the "removal of pain" that is the focus - as some commentators (and academics) want to do. The addition of pleasure *IS* the removal of pain ONLY because the two can't co-exist. Where there is pleasure, there is not pain. It is the addition of more pleasure - putting the focus on pleasure - that makes a statement the following possible...

Quote from Cassius

Wherever pleasure is present, as long as it is there, there is neither pain of body, nor of mind, nor of both at once.

Bah! I'm just prattling on like Epicurus at the end of Book 28!   reneliza did a much better job and was much more succinct!

reneliza I think you're analysis is spot on and well articulated.

accident | Etymology, origin and meaning of accident by etymonline

ACCIDENT Meaning: "an occurrence, incident, event; what comes by chance," from Old French accident (12c.), from Latin… See definitions of accident.

www.etymonline.com

accidence | Etymology, origin and meaning of accidence by etymonline

ACCIDENCE Meaning: "non-essential or incidental characteristic," also "part of grammar dealing with inflection" (mid-15c.),… See definitions of accidence.

www.etymonline.com

Definition of ACCIDENT

an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance; lack of intention or necessity : chance; an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or…

www.merriam-webster.com

3. : a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance

the accident of nationality

Quote from Cassius

Lucian is a tremendous source of information.

And fun to read! (not belly laughing funny maybe, but I've gotten a chuckle out of him on numerous occasions as well as "Ha! Good one" too. He certainly didn't suffer fools or look kindly on pomposity.)

Lucian: Sale of Philosophers

19

Her. What name?

Fifth D. Dion; of Syracuse.

Her. Take him, and much good may he do you. Now I want Epicureanism. Who offers for Epicureanism? He is a disciple of the laughing creed and the drunken creed, whom we were offering just now. But he has one extra accomplishment — impiety. For the rest, a dainty, lickerish creed.

Sixth D. What price?

Her. Eight pounds.

Sixth D. Here you are. By the way, you might let me know what he likes to eat.

Her. Anything sweet. Anything with honey in it. Dried figs are his favourite dish.

Sixth D. That is all right. We will get in a supply of Carian fig-cakes.

Sale of Creeds | Vitarum auctio [The Lucian of Samosata Project]

Although this is interesting and maybe completely irrelevant:

Chrysippus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He died during the 143rd Olympiad (208–204 BC) at the age of 73. Diogenes Laërtius gives two different accounts of his death. In the first account, Chrysippus was seized with dizziness having drunk undiluted wine at a feast, and died soon after. In the second account, he was watching a donkey eat some figs and cried out: "Now give the donkey a drink of pure wine to wash down the figs", whereupon he died in a fit of laughter. His nephew Aristocreon erected a statue in his honour in the Kerameikos. Chrysippus was succeeded as head of the Stoic school by his pupil Zeno of Tarsus.

47. One of Alexander's acts in this connection was most comical. Hitting upon the "Established Beliefs" of Epicurus, which is the finest of his books, as you know, and contains in summary the articles of the man's philosophic creed,37 he brought it into the middle of the market-place, burned it on fagots of fig-wood just as if he were burning the man in person, and threw the ashes into the sea, even adding an oracle also:

"Burn with fire, I command you, the creed of a purblind dotard!"

But the scoundrel had no idea what blessings that book creates for its readers and what peace, tranquillity, and freedom it engenders in them, liberating them as it does from terrors and apparitions and portents, from vain hopes and extravagant cravings, developing in them intelligence and truth, and truly purifying their understanding, not with torches and squills and that sort of foolery, but with straight thinking, truthfulness and frankness.

Lucian of Samosata : Alexander the False Prophet

I don't see anything about "favorite food."

PS. Just to be clear: that reference to "Established Beliefs" *is* the Principal Doctrines or kyriai doxai

Lucian, Alexander, section 47

Have something on this for later.

What's the other "shout" or triumph-song passage in the texts?