Posts by Don

Quote from waterholic

I still have LOTS to read

LOL! Welcome to the club

Welcome!

Welcome, Goblin!

Your mention of IDRlabs encouraged me to look it up online. Here's what I can up with in the philosopher test.

Here's the text below the image:

Epicurus: Epicurus advised his followers to live simple lives. For example, their food and drink consisted mainly of bread and water, with cheese as a rare indulgence. Having been much misunderstood by posterity, Epicurus actually counseled that intense pleasures were to be avoided because they were often followed by pain – either from overindulgence or from losing access to the pleasures again. Likewise, Epicurus held that stronger and more uncommon pleasures would, at the same time, make common and less potent pleasures less pleasant, thereby robbing the man who indulges in the rarefied pleasures of the opportunity to enjoy a simple, quiet life.

***

Not the best description of the philosophy, but hey at least he was in the list! Plus, I may have gamed a few questions to get the answer I wanted.

Quote from Cassius

Democritus' statement as worded is easy to understand as nihilistic - as saying that nothing exists unless we agree it exists other than atoms and void.

For me, it doesn't read that way. I've always taken it as a bare statement of fact. To try and imbue existence - let's get personal, your existence or mine - with some transcendent or ultimate meaning is, by definition, a meaningless endeavor. We're ALL, at the core, temporary patterns of atoms in the void. But not JUST atoms and void. We do have a real life and interact with real things in a real cosmos at the macro level of everyday existence. We don't experience ourselves as atoms and void, but we should keep that thought at the back of our minds, especially when we hear "God has a plan for me" or "The Universe is showing me a path." We give our lives meaning, and we can experience a pleasurable existence. But that doesn't mean we aren't, at our foundation, atoms moving in the void (or whatever modern paraphrase one wants to use).

I was going to go back and quote and respond directly, but this thread has grown. So, I'll just add my two drachmas worth. Those is my understanding after talking with Dr Glidden:

I really liked Dr. Glidden's "sensations are true*to their cause*." That is the best, succinct explanation of "all sensations are true" that I've heard. It makes perfect sense. Epicurus was "dogmatic" in the sense that we can make statements about the world, we can take a stand. Why? Because our senses are reacting to real things in the world. Our sensations are the result of our bodies being impacted by real things external to us. Those things impact our senses. Our sensations are true to their causes *out there in the real world external to us.*

But sensations are just raw data. Light hitting our retinas. Vibrations in the air. Molecules on the breeze. And so on. Prolepseis allow the recognition of patterns to be pulled out of the chaos. A prolepsis is a particular pattern, initially vague then reinforced over time. It's important to repeat that Forte Lab blog: "What the mind is doing when it “recognizes” an image is not matching it against a database of static images." Don't ask me to explain yet! Still trying to understand. But they important point is that prolepseis involve neither discursive thought nor conceptual thinking. It's quick, and gets quicker as we mature. But we recognize faces, for example, well before we "know" what a face is. And I think our pattern recognition faculty can be seen to work automatically when we see how it can be short circuited with the snake/stick example or the fact of Pareidolia:

Pareidolia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We see faces everywhere!!! We can't help ourselves.

I'll leave it there for reactions.

This is your brain detecting patterns: It is different from other kinds of learning, study shows

Detecting patterns is an important part of how humans learn and make decisions. Now, researchers have seen what is happening in people's brains as they first…

www.sciencedaily.com

Maybe pertinent...

A Pattern Recognition Theory of Mind - Forte Labs

In 2006, inventor Ray Kurzweil released the book The Singularity Is Near (Amazon Affiliate Link), with a bold prediction that by the year 2049 we'd enter

fortelabs.com

The best source I've found for transcriptions and images of papyri is:

PN Search

For example...

I looked up the titles of the papyri numbers (p.herc.#) elsewhere.

Oh that link is cool!!

FYI:

P.Herc. 89 = Philodemus, On God's.

P.Herc. 118 = Philodemus, On Epicurus.

P.Herc. 1005= Philodemus, To... (This is the one with the Tetrapharmakos in)

P.Herc. 1044 = Life of Philonides of Laodicea

Fu Manchu

Philodemi Peri tou kath' homeron agathou basileos libellus; editit [.] Alexander Olivieri : Philodemus, ca. 110-ca. 40 B.C : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

26

archive.org

"On the Good King According to Homer" in Greek and Latin.

Not the most helpful for us, but posting here to provide an idea of the condition of the papyrus. You can take a look at the Greek text and see the are fragments at the beginning but a good amount of in relatively good shape.

Also:

23.1.Fish | Society for Classical Studies

Jeffrey Fish

www.baylor.edu

The Closing Columns of Philodemus’ ON THE GOOD KING ACCORDING TO HOMER, PHERC. 1507 COLS. 95-98 (= COLS. 40-43 DORANDI)

This article presents a reedition of the nal columns of Philodemus’ On the Good King According to Homer (columns 95-98 = cols. 40-43 Dorandi). In the nal…

www.academia.edu

Odysseus and the Epicureans

Odysseus was one of the classic role models for the Stoics. And he was my favorite mythological hero when I was a kid. Both excellent reasons for this…

howtobeastoic.wordpress.com

Quote from Kalosyni

I would recommend studying and discussing the Letter to Menoceus, the Principal Doctrines, The Vatican Sayings, and the Torquatus section of Cicero's On Ends.

If I may, in addition to the more scholarly/narrative translations, I'll offer my translation and commentary of the Menoikeus letter if you're interested:

File

Epicurus's Letter to Menoikeus - A New Translation with Commentary

An in-depth translation and commentary of Epicurus's Letter to Menoikeus.

Don

July 19, 2023 at 11:25 PM

It's been around for awhile, but it keeps falling off my radar.

https://www.amazon.com/Epicureanism-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/019968832X

Has anyone read Catherine Wilson's other book? I'll admit I have not. Any reviews welcomed.

Quote

Product Description

Epicureanism is commonly associated with a carefree view of life and the pursuit of pleasures, particularly the pleasures of the table. However it was a complex and distinctive system of philosophy that emphasized simplicity and moderation, and considered nature to consist of atoms and the void. Epicureanism is a school of thought whose legacy continues to reverberate today.

In this Very Short Introduction, Catherine Wilson explains the key ideas of the School, comparing them with those of the rival Stoics and with Kantian ethics, and tracing their influence on the development of scientific and political thought from Locke, Newton, and Galileo to Rousseau, Marx, Bentham, and Mill. She discusses the adoption and adaptation of Epicurean motifs in science, morality, and politics from the 17th Century onwards and contextualises the significance of Epicureanism in modern life.

ABOUT THE SERIES: The Very Short Introductions series from Oxford University Press contains hundreds of titles in almost every subject area. These pocket-sized books are the perfect way to get ahead in a new subject quickly. Our expert authors combine facts, analysis, perspective, new ideas, and enthusiasm to make interesting and challenging topics highly readable.

The Pocket Epicurean

The Pocket Epicurean

www.amazon.com

Quote

Product Description

A short, smart guide to living the good life through the teachings of Epicurus.

As long as there has been human life, we’ve searched for what it means to be happy. More than two thousand years ago, the Greek philosopher Epicurus came to his own conclusion: all we really want in life is pleasure. Though today we tend to associate the word “Epicurean” with indulgence in the form of food and wine, the philosophy of Epicurus was about a life well lived even in the hardest of times. As John Sellars shows in this concise, approachable guide, the ideal life envisioned by Epicurus and his followers was a life much more concerned with mental pleasures and the avoidance of pain. Their goal, in short, was a life of tranquility or contentment.

In The Pocket Epicurean Sellars walks us through the history of Epicureanism, starting with the private garden on the edge of ancient Athens where Epicurus and his students lived in the fourth century BC, and where women were as welcome as men. Sellars then moves on to ancient Rome, where Epicurean influence flourished thanks to the poet Lucretius and his cohort. Throughout the book, Sellars draws on the ideas of Epicurus to offer a constructive way of thinking about the pleasures of friendship and our place in the world.

Review

"I recommend Sellars’s book to anyone who wants a short, plainly stated introduction to Epicurus’s primarily ethical thought. . . . For someone with this desire, I know of no book more suitable than Sellars’s The Pocket Epicurean." ― Metascience

“Lucid and scholarly.” ― Independent, on the UK Edition

“Sellars expertly expounds Epicurean ideas. . . . and he knows the Greek and Latin Epicurean texts thoroughly.” ― Guardian, on the UK Edition

“Not only an excellent introduction to the history of Epicurean philosophy, but also a helpful guide to facing the manifold anxieties of modern life.”

― The Idler, on the UK edition

“In this brief and eloquent book, Sellars takes us through the basic arguments of Epicureanism with wonderful clarity, distilling the essence of an ancient philosophy that speaks with increasing urgency to our troubled times. It is an exemplary guide, and I recommend it enthusiastically to readers of all ages and all walks of life.” -- David Konstan, New York University

"By the end of the volume, one has a good sense both of the importance of Epicureanism in the Hellenistic and Roman eras, its primary goals, and the ways in which one could still effectively apply Epicurean ideas to one’s own modus vivendi."

― Bryn Mawr Classical Review

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Agreed that Dr. Austin's book is the best starting place currently. If you don't want to make people buy her book, my suggestion would be to start with the several podcasts she's done both here and on other shows. If you need links, I think we've added them to the podcasts/modern books section but I can try to consolidate of that would be helpful.

If you're looking for free resources, DeWitt is available on Internet Archive:

Epicurus And His Philosophy : Epicurus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Epicurus And His Philosophy

archive.org

But, honestly, I'm not as big a fan of his than some on this forum. I think his content is fine, his scholarship is first rate, but his style and vocabulary (and other details) can be a bit off-putting for me. He's not always an easy read. For me **personally** : on his organization and general direction. on writing style, expanding references beyond what they say, and Christianity around every corner. That said, he's what we have (or had, until Emily's book).

As an aside: I've recently become interested in Dr. Michael Rucker and his work on including more "fun" in our lives. I've listened to the audiobook of his "The Fun Habit" and even bought the print book and am slowly going though it. I hope to make a (positive) Epicurean response to it some day. He also has a website:

A counterintuitive method to ensure 2023 is your most fun year ever.

michaelrucker.com

with a lot of resources.

*I* think it is an eminently Epicurean book albeit without mention of Epicurus. It could easily have been called The Pleasure Habit, because I think both pleasure and fun have been maligned in our culture, at least in North America.

I also want to re-read Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry since Dr. Austin brought up the Epicurean example of Augustus "Gus" McCray in that book, set against his friend Woodrow Call, the Stoic.

Early morning thought. Good luck on your project!!!

Quote from Cassius

we are born with some faculty within us that makes us better at this, and carry it further, than dogs and cats and the like

But remember, some animals are born with more ability for pattern "appreciation" than us in some senses, like dogs and the patterns in smells, for example. Read An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Around Us by Ed Yong.