1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Epicurean Art And Symbolism
  4. The "School of Athens" - By Raphael (1509 ce) - Where Is Epicurus?
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

"School of Athens" - The grouping to the right of center

  • Cassius
  • May 23, 2021 at 3:08 PM
  • Go to last post
Sunday Weekly Zoom.  12:30 PM EDT - This week's discussion topic: "The Nature of Divinity." To find out how to attend CLICK HERE. To read more on the discussion topic CLICK HERE.
Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    104,011
    Posts
    14,241
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • May 23, 2021 at 3:08 PM
    • #1

  • Eikadistes
    Garden Bard
    Points
    14,774
    Posts
    872
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    94.7 %
    Bookmarks
    10
    • May 23, 2021 at 10:49 PM
    • #2

    Without invoking any symbolic imagery, two of this figures SCREAM as being in accordance with two busts that I recognize, immediately.

    I don't know of anyone with such a characteristically long, pointed beard as ZENO OF CITIUM. This was a well known bust, and Zeno's features are strong.

    Screen Shot 2021-05-23 at 10.42.41 PM.png

    The same is true of the wide nose and shaggy face of ANTISTHENES.

    Screen Shot 2021-05-23 at 10.43.50 PM.png

    In another post, I suppose that the couple pointing to the bald, longe-bearded man in orange strike me as Crates of Thebes and his wife Hipparchia, so the inclusion of Zeno and Antisthenes would strongly indicate that these are Cynics and Stoics.

  • Eikadistes
    Garden Bard
    Points
    14,774
    Posts
    872
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    94.7 %
    Bookmarks
    10
    • May 23, 2021 at 10:56 PM
    • #3

    If I didn't know better, I'd say that stoic MARCUS AURELIUS had his arm around the shoulder of ZENO OF CITIUM, the founder of Stoicism. Perhaps it's even PYRRHO?

    Screen Shot 2021-05-23 at 10.50.55 PM.png

    At the same time, I think those two characters are also also distant candidates for Lucretius and Epicurus. I'd guess Zeno and Marcus Aurelius, as an impulse.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    104,011
    Posts
    14,241
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • May 24, 2021 at 5:38 AM
    • #4

    As to "Zeno" I agree about the beard, but doesn't Raphael have the figure as largely bald, which Zeno was not?

    As to the possibility of a figure being Marcus Aurelius, do we have any other examples of someone other than from pre-Christian Greece being in the fresco?

    Your reference to the colors has me asking this: I guess it's inevitable that colors are re-used, but I wonder if there is any pattern to the coloring of any of the outfits? (EDIT - I see Nate anticipated and at least partly answered my question here.)

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    104,011
    Posts
    14,241
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • May 24, 2021 at 4:52 PM
    • #5

    Nate (or anyone) is there any historical or other reason to portray Zeno as fat as this orange-clad figure is shown? I agree about the beard, but the bald head combined with the very large size would seem to me to need some correlation too, or else they point in a different direction.

  • Eikadistes
    Garden Bard
    Points
    14,774
    Posts
    872
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    94.7 %
    Bookmarks
    10
    • May 24, 2021 at 5:16 PM
    • #6

    The figure's baldness is interesting, and also severely narrows our search.

    I only know of several Greek figures that are depicted as balding.

    Hippocrates:

    Archimedes:

    Xenocrates:

    There appear to be ten bald, or balding men in the School of Athens. Three of whom are Socrates, Plato, and Diogenes, so that leaves seven unidentified bald men:

    a. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.06.41 PM.png

    b. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.07.56 PM.png

    c. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.08.00 PM.png

    d. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.06.29 PM.png

    e. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.06.13 PM.png

    f. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.06.25 PM.png

    g. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.06.18 PM.png

    Nothing jumps out at me. I think though, that we can cross-reference the bald and balding figures, because there are significantly fewer of them, both in the painting, and in the history of philosophers, who generally seem to sport a shaggy hairstyle.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    104,011
    Posts
    14,241
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • May 24, 2021 at 8:13 PM
    • #7

    Good sleuthing to count the balding ones in the painting. We'd have to ask Elli about this, but I wonder if anything can be said about whether Greek men (ancient or modern) have a more or less tendency to go bald than Romans or other Europeans(?) I am by no means expert on the racial characteristics of Greeks but I wonder if anything can be said about their relative baldness. Maybe the number of balding men in this picture is an indication of using local figures as models rather than the busts - and maybe the sculptors tended to embellish the amount of hair?

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    104,011
    Posts
    14,241
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • May 24, 2021 at 8:18 PM
    • #8

    Nate what about that pronounced downward pointed nose on the orange-balding figure. Of course we have to keep in mind Don's caveat, but the nose on the bust of Zeno doesn't seem to be so pronounced in pointing downward (?)

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources 20

      • Like 1
      • Cassius
      • April 1, 2022 at 5:36 PM
      • Philodemus On Anger
      • Cassius
      • July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
    2. Replies
      20
      Views
      6.8k
      20
    3. Kalosyni

      July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
    1. Mocking Epithets 3

      • Like 3
      • Bryan
      • July 4, 2025 at 3:01 PM
      • Comparing Epicurus With Other Philosophers - General Discussion
      • Bryan
      • July 6, 2025 at 9:47 PM
    2. Replies
      3
      Views
      375
      3
    3. Bryan

      July 6, 2025 at 9:47 PM
    1. Best Lucretius translation? 12

      • Like 1
      • Rolf
      • June 19, 2025 at 8:40 AM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Rolf
      • July 1, 2025 at 1:59 PM
    2. Replies
      12
      Views
      1k
      12
    3. Eikadistes

      July 1, 2025 at 1:59 PM
    1. The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura 4

      • Thanks 1
      • Kalosyni
      • June 12, 2025 at 12:03 PM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Kalosyni
      • June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      924
      4
    3. Godfrey

      June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    1. New Blog Post From Elli - " Fanaticism and the Danger of Dogmatism in Political and Religious Thought: An Epicurean Reading"

      • Like 3
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
      • Epicurus vs Abraham (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      2.3k

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

What's the best strategy for finding things on EpicureanFriends.com? Here's a suggested search strategy:

  • First, familiarize yourself with the list of forums. The best way to find threads related to a particular topic is to look in the relevant forum. Over the years most people have tried to start threads according to forum topic, and we regularly move threads from our "general discussion" area over to forums with more descriptive titles.
  • Use the "Search" facility at the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere." Also check the "Search Assistance" page.
  • Use the "Tag" facility, starting with the "Key Tags By Topic" in the right hand navigation pane, or using the "Search By Tag" page, or the "Tag Overview" page which contains a list of all tags alphabetically. We curate the available tags to keep them to a manageable number that is descriptive of frequently-searched topics.

Latest Posts

  • Episode 290 - TD20 - To Be Recorded

    Don July 13, 2025 at 12:15 AM
  • Preuss - "Epicurean Ethics - Katastematic Hedonism"

    Cassius July 12, 2025 at 10:46 PM
  • Welcome DistantLaughter!

    DistantLaughter July 12, 2025 at 9:28 PM
  • Major Renovation In Use of Tags At EpicureanFriends.com

    Cassius July 12, 2025 at 1:32 PM
  • Epicurus' Prolepsis vs Heraclitus' Flux

    Cassius July 10, 2025 at 3:41 PM
  • Lucretius Today Episode 289 Posted - "Epicureans Are Not Spocks!"

    Cassius July 10, 2025 at 12:09 PM
  • Episode 289 - TD19 - "Epicureans Are Not Spocks!"

    Cassius July 10, 2025 at 12:03 PM
  • Happy Birthday General Thread

    Patrikios July 9, 2025 at 7:33 PM
  • Epicurus and the Pleasure of the Stomach

    Kalosyni July 9, 2025 at 9:59 AM
  • Welcome Dlippman!

    dlippman July 9, 2025 at 9:18 AM

Key Tags By Topic

  • #Canonics
  • #Death
  • #Emotions
  • #Engagement
  • #EpicureanLiving
  • #Ethics
  • #FreeWill
  • #Friendship
  • #Gods
  • #Happiness
  • #HighestGood
  • #Images
  • #Infinity
  • #Justice
  • #Knowledge
  • #Physics
  • #Pleasure
  • #Soul
  • #Twentieth
  • #Virtue


Click Here To Search All Tags

To Suggest Additions To This List Click Here

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design