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  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
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  • Epicurean Views On Hierarchy In Social Structures

    • Peter Konstans
    • March 13, 2024 at 3:55 PM
    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    You see, Epicureanism has an egalitarian ethos and a tendency to want to opt out of mainstream culture (traits that it shares with early Christianity and some egalitarian movements in the modern era) but it also shows little interest in fighting or provoking same mainstream culture.

    Perhaps I should be sure we are on the same page as to "egalitarian" -- (Affirming, promoting, or characterized by belief in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people.) I grant you that Epicureanism is interpreted that way today, but I do not take for granted that the early Epicureans interpreted it that way. They were no doubt happy to welcome new friends, but this does not ring of open arms to "all people" regardless of their views and actions: "The man who has best ordered the element of disquiet arising from external circumstances has made those things that he could akin to himself, and the rest at least not alien; but with all to which he could not do even this, he has refrained from mixing, and has expelled from his life all which it was of advantage to treat thus."

    And as for not showing much interest in "fighting" the mainstream culture, I suppose that too depends on the definition of "fight," but i interpret most of Epicurus' views as a very strong rejection of the "mainstream culture" of the time.

    Quote from Peter Konstans

    why the Epicureans never experimented with things like common ownership of wealth even though the acquisition of wealth and luxuries runs contrary to a marked preference for minimalism.

    Again I think this is the way Epicurus is interpreted but I do not think that a rigorous interpretation of Epicurus truly results in a "marked preference for minimalism." VS63. Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is like him who errs through excess. And Epicurus' statement that common ownership of property is not a good idea also seems consistent with PD39 that we have a strong preference for friends over wide-open obligations.

    Quote from Peter Konstans

    To illustrate how strong the Epicurean tendency for minimalism was consider the cause of Epicurus' death. His kidney disease likely came about as a result of an extremely low-fat diet.

    OK aside from that being very speculative, I don't believe that the evidence supports Epicurus eating an extremely low-fat diet. Yes there are statements about bread and water and cheese but those are more likely to be philosophical statements of the importance of self-reliance than his standard diet. Epicurus' will shows him to have been affluent and I would expect his personal diet reflected at least a middle-class lifestyle. I see no reason to think that the Roman Epicureans, who had access to the sources we don't have, interpreted him as calling for an extreme eating pattern.

    Display More

    Having an egalitarian ethos is not the same thing as being egalitarian in the sense of having an egalitarian political agenda. Epicurus had an egalitarian ethos insofar as he allowed women and slaves to join his school and declared that philosophy is useful for all humans and not just an elite training programme for those males aspring to excellence and virtue. But he certainly wasn't egalitarian in the sense that he wanted to abolish slavery or institute common ownership of wealth or women. Some radical ideas along those lines did exist in those centuries and the comedian Aristophanes mocks some of them.

    Epicurus rejected mainstream culture but saw no need to replace it, counsel it or modify it and in that sense he was apolitical. He would have held that a life of pleasure is possible regardless of one's social conditions or one's social station. Modern egalitarianism rejects that notion. If someone wanted to be involved in politics he was permitted to do so but Epicurus would not have recommended it. If someone wanted to marry he was permitted to do so but Epicurus would not have recommended it. The idea that you should think twice about getting involved in politics (and there was good money to be made by holding even some minor office) and the idea that you should think twice before getting married (and the prospect of a dowry was no small thing back then) can only be interpreted as wilful marginalization from society. Today not getting involved in politics and not getting married sound way more harmless than they would have sounded in 3rd century Athens. Although they do carry some lingering stigma they amount to little more than a trivial 'choice'. Back then they meant marginalization and only that. Whatever Roman Epicureans in later centuries chose to do or how they rationalized their choices, Epicurus and his immediate followers clearly advocated avoiding politics. Wise advice indeed considering how petty political conflicts destroyed the magnificent empire of Alexander and Greece itself. They destroyed the Roman Republic too, slaughtering the majority of its ruling class in the 1st century and (as Hennig Börm makes the case) the chief cause of the collapse of the Roman Empire that followed the Republic was in fact endless civil wars, not invasions from beyond its borders.

    About Epicurus' condition I mixed something up. It seems more likely that Epicurus problems were caused by too much fat in his diet, not too little. He probably ate way too many olives, brined sheep/goat cheese and sardines which were simple, widely available foods. My grandparents weren't fat or inactive at all but their daily brined-cheese and olives habit clearly damaged their health.

    Heres a few words about his condition from a book on medicine: 'About 10 percent of the population develop gallstones in their gallbladder. Fortunately, very few experience symptoms, but some of those that do can wish for the sweet release of death. Gallstones have become an increasingly major pathology due to the excesses of our modern lives. Overeating and a diet high in fat and cholesterol can increase the chances of them forming. Gallstones, like rock solid caviar, can shift into the gallbladder ducts and ultimately block the flow of bile, causing inflammation and pain that can quickly escalate.'

    Alternatively he might have been suffering from the complications of prostate cancer a risk factor of which is infrequent sexual activity. Let's be real: whatever a philosopher or sage or brilliant passionate scientist might say about pleasure or beauty or power or other attractive things such people never get around a lot in real life. Brilliant people like Darwin, Nietzsche and Einstein had notoriously sterile sex lives and I don't believe Epicurus was lying about what he believed when he wrote that happiness is not to be found in the joys of servant lads and that one should count himself lucky if his horniness doesn't harm him. He really meant it much as poor Lucretius (who definitely wasn't getting laid a lot) would have felt disappointed. In his reservations about sexuality Epicurus is more right than many of us (including me) want to admit. When we lived in paradise (as hunter-gatherers) we were promiscuous and polyamorous just like our Chimp and Bonobo relatives. But since our fall from grace horniness has for various reasons lost much of its luster and innocence and carries various risks.

    Epicurus showed a preference for tasty (tasty meaning in his case mostly fatty) foods which probably exacerbated the severity of his condition but he wasn't a gourmand. If he wanted to he could have been one. As you said he didn't lack the money and a culture of fancy-pants gastronomy was well developed in his times. The world record for the longest word is a joke from Aristophanes about fanciful dishes and in some Greek cities there were even cooking competitions taking place.

    That said, eating (very) moderately adds a lot to the sensual pleasure of dining as everyone who has really, honestly tried to put the idea into practice understands. When Epicurus warned the visitors to his school that they will be treated to simple fare that will still their senses rather than titillate them he wasn't lying about his dietary philosophy. He ate delicious simple foods in minimalist quantities. Perfect advice if we are serious about taking the chance to reach 90 years of age or more and in such good health of body and mind that we may avoid the indignity of suffering years of daily pain while being handled like an infant by a wife who is sick of us or a complete stranger. This is the miserable way most men who died 'of old age' actually left the world. There's only one reliable way to avoid this: enjoy minimally.

  • Epicurean Views On Hierarchy In Social Structures

    • Peter Konstans
    • March 13, 2024 at 11:17 AM
    Quote from Kalosyni
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    The master of this world will soon come after you and crucify you.

    I believe that this poetic metaphor (and some of the other ideas in the above post) doesn't lead to finding good health and happiness of the soul. In fact it distracts from seeing the world "as it is". The best way to do that is start with your own life, and ask yourself: are you feeling more pleasure than pain? If not, why not? And what can you do to make your life more pleasant? And then remember that there will always be problems in the world, but if you say to yourself that you can't live a good life until all problems in the world are solved, then you will miss out on your one opportunity to experience what Nature endowed us with: the ability to experience pleasure. And we maximize it by using prudence, which also means that we "choose our fights" as some things just beyond our influence or our control. Don't miss out on making this one life as best as it can be - we only live once - and look for the goodness and pleasure that you can experience while you are yet alive. :)

    Thanks for your warm and well-meaning words but I should point out that I didn't write the above to express personal grievances of some sort. I just wanted to explain to the contributor to whom I replied certain aspects of my view of Epicureanism. You see, Epicureanism has an egalitarian ethos and a tendency to want to opt out of mainstream culture (traits that it shares with early Christianity and some egalitarian movements in the modern era) but it also shows little interest in fighting or provoking same mainstream culture. I think there was an Epicurean strategy of 'faked conformism' which explains why for example Epicurus and his followers continued to participate in religious rituals and pretended to be as pious as everyone else (I agree that they were not atheists in the modern Anglo-American sense but they were definitely far from traditional polytheists) or why the Epicureans never experimented with things like common ownership of wealth even though the acquisition of wealth and luxuries runs contrary to a marked preference for minimalism. To illustrate how strong the Epicurean tendency for minimalism was consider the cause of Epicurus' death. His kidney disease likely came about as a result of an extremely low-fat diet.

    Unlike the Epicureans who were content to be just a philosophical community, the early Christians eventually created real egalitarian communities which sheltered to some degree their low-status members from the highly exploitative social conditions prevailing in the Roman provinces. That's the main secret of their success in rapidly attracting new followers. They grew so numerous that you couldn't just kill them off anymore. So civilization developed a new strategy to defeat the Christian movement. It co-opted it and turned the Church into a formal state-sponsored organization. So ever since then the Christian Church assimilated itself in the realm of the Devil and became complicit in all sorts of depravities. Today the real early Christian ethos survives only within the last vestiges of monasticism and in fact we owe the preservation of ancient texts - including the traces of Epicurus - to those monks.

    My personal life is not miserable and being resolutely apolitical I don't wait for the world to change to reach aponia and ataraxia. That said, no philosophy or religion - whatever we call it - can pay the bills or your social security or reduce working hours. Those are impediments that Epicurus didn't have to deal with and they have tangible effects that can't be prayed, meditated or philosophized away. I have no doubt however that if we lived in a society that was officially Epicurean these pressures would be somewhat gentler. Civilization generates numerous evils that can't be eliminated. But they can be helped. And that's where Epicurus 'the one who rushes to help' comes in.

  • Epicurean Views On Hierarchy In Social Structures

    • Peter Konstans
    • March 13, 2024 at 9:19 AM
    Quote from DavidN
    Quote from Peter Konstans
     

    I don't think centralized hierarchical structures are compatible with Epicureanism. Self-suficiency, being an epicurean virtue, is increasingly stifled the more centralized and top heavy power structures becomes. I also don't agree with your analysis of the decline of epicureanism in late antiquity, from what I've read most scholars think that in the face of environmental and societal changes the appeal of Epicureanism to the general populis declined.

    What was so special about the social and environmental conditions in the centuries when Epicureanism was popular as opposed to those when it declined? Nothing much really. It was the same old agrarian society. In any case Christianity and Islam have survived plenty of devastating social shifts and the same should be demanded of any successful creed aiming at the hearts of as many people as possible.

    I agree that modern (and ancient) forms of social organization are not compatible with Epicureanism just as for example a modern Western democracy is not compatible with Islam although it's perfectly possible to live in one as a Muslim and be well-adjusted.

    Non-hierarchical forms of social organization are known to be indefinitely viable only in the case of immediate-return hunter-gatherers which today can hardly be said to exist anymore. They represent way less than 1% of the global population. All other egalitarian experiments from within civilization have failed and in the rare case where they were politically successful (starting with revolutionary France) produced nothing more than mass terror and hideous dictatorships. In my view civilization and egalitarianism cannot possibly co-exist and that's why even numerous non-political small-scale egalitarian experiments in the West have failed too. It's not that they were destined to fail, it's just that civilization does everything in its power to destroy such communities and it invariably succeeds because it is resourceful, aggressive and ruthless. It is no accident that resourcefulness, aggression and competition have always been civilizational virtues. It is precisely those traits that civilization needs to sustain itself. Christian theology understands this dynamic too in its own way. That's why Jesus calls the Devil 'the master of this world' in the Gospel of John. Civilization is in a certain sense truly the realm of the Devil. It requires the destruction of our souls and feeds on the darkness in our own hearts. In this world it is not wise to attempt egalitarian experiments. The master of this world will soon come after you and crucify you.

  • Pros and Cons Of Considering Epicurean Philosophy To Be A "Religion"

    • Peter Konstans
    • February 2, 2024 at 3:55 PM
    Quote from Pacatus

    “Even the principle of Epicurean pleasure requires making sacrifices.” It requires choices and trade-offs. And not sacrifice to the “principle” – let alone to some “principle of Epicureanism.” And the trade-offs are simply for the practical goal of happiness defined as the most pleasant/pleasurable life (which includes others). You seem to be largely just substituting the word “principle” for “ideal.” Or perhaps deliberately confusing them. Are you trying to craft an “Epicureanism” that is really subsumed under Stoic values and ethics? It sounds like it.

    I am sure you’ll be able to find plenty of people to take loyalty oaths and pledges of obedience, and to sacrifice themselves on the altar of your principles, Peter, at the beck of their leaders (under whatever “ism” you invoke). I will not be one of them – and that’s on principle. (Argumentum finale est.)

    I will just make one brief comment: the idea that a world is possible where individual and collective sacrifices are pointless and unnecessary is the very definition of Utopia.

  • Pros and Cons Of Considering Epicurean Philosophy To Be A "Religion"

    • Peter Konstans
    • February 2, 2024 at 5:13 AM
    Quote from Pacatus
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    The requirement that people should be willing to sacrifice their lives to save their friends and maintain their honor and integrity would ensure that we attract serious people.

    That strikes me as quite different from being willing to sacrifice one's life for a set of dictated principles.

    Can you give an example (whether hypothetical or historical or personal) of a principles-based sacrifice that you see as good and one that you see as bad? As I see it, making sacrifices on behalf of principles is simply part of the human condition. Human beings have the unique ability to subordinate aspects of their biology in pursuit of values. No other animal does that as far as I know. For example Catholic priests sacrifice (with various degrees of success) the strong biological urge of sexuality because that's part of the principles of being a catholic priest. Defeated warriors (like the extremely competent and energetic Walter Model) choose to die rather than surrender, overriding the supreme biological urge of self-preservation for no other reason than to preserve their honor and the dignity of the institutions they represent. Even the principle of Epicurean pleasure requires making sacrifices. Over time I have learned to resist the urge to consume cheap electronic entertainment and now reading a book feels like a supreme sensual delight. I have learned to resist the urge to consume calorie-rich food with abandon so that now a piece of cheddar feels like manna from heaven.

  • Pros and Cons Of Considering Epicurean Philosophy To Be A "Religion"

    • Peter Konstans
    • February 1, 2024 at 6:31 PM
    Quote from Pacatus

    So, Peter, in this “Epicurean ‘church’” you seem to espouse –

    Would those who disagree with any of its tenets/creeds/commandments be told to simply “get in line, or get out?” Would that be a free choice, or come with threats – à la the Catholic Inquisition?

    How authoritarian (totalitarian) would the kind of leadership hierarchy you seem to propose be?

    Would there be some kind of incentivized informant network to identify heretics?

    My eldest son identifies as a (neo-) Stoic: Would I need to shun him? Denounce him?

    I have dear friends who identify as (liberal) Christians – do I need to mock/shun/denounce them?

    You seem to think that people should be willing to sacrifice their lives for the prescribed “Epicurean” principles. Is that not just another demand for absolute allegiance to an idealism?

    And what price personal integrity?

    ++++++++++++++++

    I personally doubt that what would survive under your program (as outlined here) would be “Epicurean” except in name only, since I think that this philosophy is – at core – anti-idealist. And anti-totalitarian.

    Display More

    My vision is not about building a 'church'. It is about building a real flesh-and-blood community structured around a strong Epicurean Identity. This community just like any other real community would have 'leaders' i.e. persons that everbody else regards highly and which have certain responsibilities. There's nothing idealistic here.

    Nobody would be prevented from joining the community as long as they swear to live and abide by our common values. And naturally this community would not include persons who insist on other creeds and views on life. We should stive to assimilate, not to be assimilated. Besides, we need to find compatible people to live with if we want to maximize our happiness. If a certain family member doesn't want to be a part, that's ok. Adults should be free to do whatever they wish with their lives. So nothing totalitarian here.

    The requirement that people should be willing to sacrifice their lives to save their friends and maintain their honor and integrity would ensure that we attract serious people. The kind of people who will not cut and run after life punches them in the face. The early Christians for example were people of similar mettle. They survived the prosecutions under the emperors because they had managed to form a network of communities whose members had forged a common strong and proud identity and who needed each other. Let's imitate success.

  • Pros and Cons Of Considering Epicurean Philosophy To Be A "Religion"

    • Peter Konstans
    • February 1, 2024 at 2:08 PM

    We should think in those terms: 'what can we do so that Epicureanism will survive our own demise and the demise of our descendants and the demise of the descendants of our descendants and so on and so on ad infinitum?' I think that calling Epicureanism a religion is a good strategy to get us there so I see Nate's attitude in a positive light. He is right to suggest that Epicurus took piety (and a certain sensual restraint I would add) seriously. In this respect he was as far removed from being a LaVeyan figure as he was from being a protestant preacher.

    Plutarch tells us that Epicurus (against the counsel of most sages) saw nothing wrong with seeking sexual relations while being an old man and we can infer that he encouraged it. For all his ill-will I see no good reason not to accept this testimony by Plutarch as authentic. This alone tells us that Epicurus was not a traditional moralist which is an important point because traditional ideas of virtue propagated by most sages were closely linked with respect for popular religion.

    That being said, I think Epicurus would have endorsed plenty of the Delphic Maxims. The problem with counterculture-type hedonism and individualism is that it attracts people who are not willing to work seriously and make sacrifices. If we allow Epicureanism to attract those types in large numbers we will perish in the long run. Epicurus, who had organizational talent, must have understood that personal moral quality matters. I would also suggest that we avoid people attracted to mysticism.

    Calling Epicureanism a religion is not enough. It has to become an actual organization with rights and responsibilities; with a division of labor, duties and rewards. In other words a formal structure like the Garden is needed, headed by a 'gardener-in-chief' and his close associates. Once again, every precaution must be taken to deter anarchist types who just want to drink and have sex. Absent that, Epicureanism will not survive long. I suspect that a huge reason why ancient Epicureanism didn't survive to Late Antiquity is because it attracted more pleasure-consumers than pleasure-workers. Epicurus would have sacrificed his life for his friends. We need people that are capable of doing the same in a crisis.

    That is still not enough. In my view it is important to become completely intolerant towards other religions and traditions. It is important to fight them and to mock them mercilessly and to never desist in doing so. History shows that political and religious traditions that allow or worse put a premium on tolerance do not survive long. Now this is my own personal view. The majority here probably disagree with me and that's fine.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • February 1, 2024 at 11:28 AM
    Quote from Eggplant Wizard
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    Has anybody ever experimented with the idea of Epicureanism as a formal spiritual identity capable of defining entire communities? What would Epicureanism look like if it wasn't merely a brotherhood of friends discussing philosophy but was also a sort of quasi religious worldview with its own intricate rituals, symbols and ceremonies covering every aspect of life?


    Like I talked about at length in another thread, I think if Epicureanism had persisted through late antiquity, it could easily have developed overtly "religious" tendencies rivaling the theurgic neoplatonism of Iamblichus, Emperor Julian, Proclus, etc. This is because Epicurean piety already had certain concepts that anticipated the theurgists: understanding that the gods do not exhibit favor or wrath toward mortals, but that mortals' own attitudes toward them can engender good or bad effects; that the gods are not pleased by sacrifice but that this benefits the worshiper by drawing them closer to the gods; that popular religious rites are in fact appropriate expressions of piety; that only a purified mind can receive accurate impressions from the gods. And while the theurgists' gods, unlike the Epicureans' gods, did actively govern the world, they did so in a detached, effortless way, like the sun shining. If one takes seriously the idea that the Epicurean gods are constantly emitting a stream of subtle images that reach earth, then it could easily be inferred that these images are all-pervasive and that various means can be sought to perceive, channel, or embody them.

    The theurgists of Late Antiquity (Neoplatonists and their ilk) wanted to defend traditional polytheism in the face of new monotheistic challenges. They felt that philosophy could enable them to cleanse traditional polytheism of its childhood diseases and stupidities. Thus cleansed, polytheism could transform itself into something new and great. Well, that didn't work out at all. But since much of Christian theology is rooted in ancient philosophy it is not surprising that ancient attempts to defend paganism focused a great deal on reclaiming 'true' philosophy.

    Epicurus spoke of 'true philosophy' too but it is doubtful that he would have found common ground with half-schizoid people like Julian the Apostate, Iamblichus or Plotinus. My view is that Epicurus' portrayal of the gods as part of the natural world was an elegant way to answer why the hell the whole of mankind believed and worshipped them. Even today we are not quite sure why people made up religion. In view of modern scientific progress it is extremely difficult to argue today that the ontological existence of divinities or immaterial beings is likely.

    So modern scientists are almost universally atheist i. e. they believe that gods, magic etc. are completely made up and have absolutely no basis outside of human psychology. But then nobody has worked out a generally accepted scientific theory about how and why religion was developed by humans. The theology of Epicurus was an attempt to answer why people are clinging onto something that doesn't contribute to pleasure, worldly success or salvation from evils and which instead often causes psychological distress, confusion and pain.

    Other philosophers before Epicurus (almost none of which - contrary to some puerile Neoplatonists of later centuries - was inclined to take popular religion the least bit seriously) had their own theories about this important theological issue. But Epicurus had to find an answer in alignment with his own views about the nature of the universe (his cosmology), the nature of man (his anthropology) and the strategy for success and happiness (his deontology).

    In terms of methodology Epicurus had a similar view about philosophy as Helmuth von Moltke the Elder had about strategy. The latter once remarked, “The theory of strategy scarcely goes beyond the first principles of common sense.” Epicurus applied this 'common sense' in cosmological and theological matters too. For example, fires seen a distance are more or less what they appear to be so the sun must be the same. Since a tiny lamp can light up an entire room, why assume that the sun is larger than the earth we tread on? In antiquity it was rational to suggest this given the profound ignorance of the times.

    Despite this ignorance it was rational to posit - correctly - that the world is made up of atoms somehow. And since gods are universal across cultures it was rational to assume that they really do exist somehow. So why not explain the visions of the gods as transmissions of their sublime atoms to the attuned souls of happy and blessed people? After all, from an Epicurean point of view, happiness (eudaimonia) is what makes god-like. In other words Epicurean theology was useful because it served the purposes of Epicurean ethics.

    I am not sure that my interpretation is correct. We are in a similar situation in respect to Epicurean teachings as Epicurus and his contemporaries were in respect to the natural world. Maybe the optimal approach is to imitate Epicurus and, like him, opt for the simplest possible explanations when interpreting him.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • January 17, 2024 at 9:52 AM
    Quote from Don
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    The spirit of Epicureanism is of course inclusive. Cicero would want education only for the 'good families'. I want basic education for everyone (although basic doesn't include things like algebra and grammar for me) and I want advanced education for talented people regardless of social background. I don't want a distinction between schools for working class families and schools for rich people. In fact I would prefer to abolish private schools altogether. So I think I have more in common with you in the way I view education than with Cicero.

    Now we're getting somewhere. Thank you for that clarification. That helps me understand your position a little better.

    My follow up question is "What would you include in your 'basic education'?" Epicurus certainly wrote against παιδεία (paideia), the standard form of "education" or (better translated, in my opinion) "enculturation" of his time.

    That's true but education always has enculturation elements in it. That's because education is a form of propaganda. Epicurus' rejection of paedia reflects his rejection of the values of the society he lived in.

    Basic education would include everything in the following text. It's an adapted text from Xenophon taken from an ancient Greek language textbook intended for the use of Greek pupils.

    ᾿Εν Αθήναις τοὺς παῖδας μετ’ ἐπιμελείας διδάσκουσι καὶ νουθετοῦσι. Πρῶτον μὲν καὶ τροφὸς καὶ μήτηρ καὶ παιδαγωγὸς καὶ αὐτὸς ὁ πατὴρ ἐπιμελοῦνται ὅπως βέλτιστος γενήσεται ὁ παῖς, διδάσκοντες ὅτι τὸ μὲν δίκαιον, τὸ δὲ ἄδικον καὶ τόδε μὲν καλόν, τόδε δὲ αἰσχρόν ἐστι. Εἶτα δέ, ἐπειδὰν οἱ παῖδες εἰς ἡλικίαν ἔλθωσιν, οἱ γονεῖς εἰς διδασκάλων πέμπουσιν, ἔνθα οἱ μὲν γραμματισταὶ ἐπιμελοῦνται ὅπως γράμματα μάθωσιν καὶ τὰ γεγραμμένα ἐννοῶσι, οἱ δὲ κιθαρισταὶ τῷ κιθαρίζειν ἡμερωτέρους αὐτοὺς ποιεῖν πειρῶνται καὶ τὰς τῶν παίδων ψυχὰς πρὸς τὸν ῥυθμὸν καὶ τὴν ἁρμονίαν οἰκειοῦσι. ῎Ετι οἱ παῖδες ἐν γυμνασίοις καὶ παλαίστραις φοιτῶσιν, ἔνθα οἱ παιδοτρίβαι βελτίω τὰ σώματα αὐτῶν ποιοῦσι, ἵνα μὴ ἀναγκάζωνται ἀποδειλιᾶν διὰ τὴν τῶν σωμάτων πονηρίαν.

    So basic education would include teaching right and wrong according to Epicureanism, (Epicurean enculturation) learning to read and write, learning musical instruments as well as strenuous physical education and sports. It would resemble a 'ludus' i. e. a disciplined playing ground of sorts for young people. It would not have the character of a boring academy.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • January 8, 2024 at 4:47 AM
    Quote from Don
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    I simply suggested that we shouldn't waste resources trying to educate all children because a great deal of them do not have a sufficient inclination towards education...

    It's the elite of society that really needs education. It's the statesmen, the public servants, the military officers, the doctors in public hospitals etc. Almost anybody who is paid by the public purse and entrusted with responsibility over other people's lives should possess a superb education and should always be a person that is morally and intellectually outstanding and not someone you could easily meet cheering in a WWE event.

    Epicurus welcomed everyone to the Garden to learn his philosophy. If you're advocating "education" only for the "elite of society," we may need to define what it is that each of us mean by the word "education." What you are describing strikes me as something Cicero might advocate, especially when you use references like someone cheering at a WWE event. Epicurus didn't play to the crowd, but he left the door open to *anyone* - regardless of social status - who was curious to enter.

    There's also the need for an informed citizenry. That is something that has been neglected and needs to be part of any public educational system. I do agree that teachers are woefully undervalued, overworked, overwhelmed, and underpaid.

    The spirit of Epicureanism is of course inclusive. Cicero would want education only for the 'good families'. I want basic education for everyone (although basic doesn't include things like algebra and grammar for me) and I want advanced education for talented people regardless of social background. I don't want a distinction between schools for working class families and schools for rich people. In fact I would prefer to abolish private schools altogether. So I think I have more in common with you in the way I view education than with Cicero. In any case I would welcome a wide-reaching reform in the way education operates. That would be far better than leaving things the way they are. So I think our disagreement comes down to the degree of how far we want to go.

    People today have the inclusive right to universal education (or rather obligation since many kids would rather not be in school if they could choose) but you don't have the inclusive right of protection from something as dire as homelessness. I think the second kind of inclusion is more important and more pertinent to people's well-being and pleasure. So we should keep in mind that symbolic inclusion and real inclusion are not the same thing and I am sure most people here understand that well.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • January 1, 2024 at 5:37 AM
    Quote from Don
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    This assumes that all people have a special gift or talent waiting to be discovered and nurtured. This is an old Western humanist notion that I personally don't think is as true as we'd like to think. Some (probably most) people just don't have any hidden talent and that's ok. This mentality is liberating because it stops us from pressuring kids to 'prove themselves' or 'make something of themselves'. What if just accept that the most valid reason to stick around is to just be: to give pleasure and to take pleasure.

    I should probably rephrase my original rephrasing again in light of your objection, but I'll just forge ahead. Upon reflection, I don't think every person has some innate, hidden "God-given" "special gift" or talent that needs uncovering. I do think everyone is interested in something, but without exposing students to a broad range of topics, they may never have another opportunity in having a glimpse of a wider world that's available to them, especially in smaller, rural communities. Speaking from a US perspective, as that's my background and experience.

    I would agree that providing an education in the value of pleasure in one's life would be positive.

    I don't think a strictly vocational education that it sounded to me like you were advocating is a positive direction. Are you implying only a select elite should be educated? You've also used the term "real talent," but are you referring to the select few who have "real talent" with the hoi polloi somehow being given a lesser education:

    Quote

    it would be better to pick those that have real talent and focus on educating them so that they can assume upon maturity those jobs and responsibilities that require specialization and education.

    I don't advocate a solely vocational education. I don't believe in educational approaches that focus on training. Yanis Varoufakis once said 'Training and education are two different things. You can train a little puppy to do various tricks but you could never educate it' and I agree with that. I simply suggested that we shouldn't waste resources trying to educate all children because a great deal of them do not have a sufficient inclination towards education. What's the point teaching physics to a kid that doesn't possess above average intelligence?

    It's the elite of society that really needs education. It's the statesmen, the public servants, the military officers, the doctors in public hospitals etc. Almost anybody who is paid by the public purse and entrusted with responsibility over other people's lives should possess a superb education and should always be a person that is morally and intellectually outstanding and not someone you could easily meet cheering in a WWE event. They should also be paid handsomely. When a career in politics pays less than a career in banking, talent flees the state in droves and mediocrity takes over.

    It doesn't take much to discern which people possess a particular kind of aptitude and which don't. Talent scouts do that for a living. Teachers themselves do it all the time. I once heard a teacher say to a kid 'you are very bright. Make sure you put your brain to good use'. Speaking of teachers they have have some of the worst mental health metrics across various occupations. That's because we place impossible demands on them and treat them essentially as babysitters.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • January 1, 2024 at 5:08 AM
    Quote from Nate
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    What would a 'holy book' of Epicureanism look like and what would it contain other than the letters of Epicurus and the poem of Lucretius?

    I believe it would look something like this:

    https://www.amazon.com/Hedonicon-Holy…s/dp/B0CNTN6KH6 ;)

    I aim to include Philodemus' prose and Diogenes of Oinoanda's etching in future editions.

    That's awesome! Maybe the Epicurean community could expand the hedonicon in the future with texts written today by living Epicureans such as yourself. Would you consider authoring an essay or maybe a literary letter for inclusion in future editions?

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • January 1, 2024 at 4:58 AM
    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    because peaceful co-existence with those faiths is impossible for us in the long run.

    I would like us to be careful and avoid getting into modern politics, but in generic terms I think that this question falls under general issues of justice and is probably directly relevant to the ending of the ancient Epicurean school (and the ancient world in general).

    The example you raise (religious aspects of marriage) could be a useful way of getting at the larger issue: Being free to pursue one's choices seems generally be conducive to pleasure, but enacting rules in a society can also be productive of the safety and ongoing pleasure of the society. Skepticism toward religious claims is a major aspect of Epicurean philosophy, but (being a philosophy rather than a political party) the philosophy gives you general principles to consider but doesn't tell you exactly which to pursue. I do think it's useful to discuss how far an Epicurean community would act on that religious skepticism, but it would probably be necessary to first be clear what kind of "Epicurean community" is being discussed. A regular nation in which many of the leading politicians were openly identifying as Epicurean? We might have an actual example of that in the Rome of 50 BC.

    A hypothetical Epicurean community could be anything from a small village where the majority are Epicureans to a state where Epicureanism is the officially sponsored state ideology or 'religion', kind of like Confucianism was in pre-modern China. 1st century ancient Rome did contain many Epicureans in privileged positions but it was not a society founded and operating on avowedly Epicurean values. Similarly there are powerful people today who claim to represent Christian values and genuinely see themselves as Christians but they live in a society that was actually founded on secular - or to use 19th century terminology 'bourgeois' values - and operates according to them. In this particular sense we can say for example that some genuinely Islamic societies do exist today whereas genuinely Christian societies have all but disappeared.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • December 31, 2023 at 5:55 AM
    Quote from Don
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    instead of wasting resources teaching kids lots of material they are either unwilling or unable to absorb, it would be better to pick those that have real talent and focus on educating them so that they can assume upon maturity those jobs and responsibilities that require specialization and education.

    I would offer a rephrasing of that to:

    Find out what talent (and interests) the children have and what excites them about learning and focus on educating that with an emphasis on the individual student.

    This assumes that all people have a special gift or talent waiting to be discovered and nurtured. This is an old Western humanist notion that I personally don't think is as true as we'd like to think. Some (probably most) people just don't have any hidden talent and that's ok. This mentality is liberating because it stops us from pressuring kids to 'prove themselves' or 'make something of themselves'. What if just accept that the most valid reason to stick around is to just be: to give pleasure and to take pleasure.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • December 31, 2023 at 5:42 AM

    Hello fellow garden dwellers. Have a happy and pleasurable new year. I was reading this book recently by Clare Chambers https://www.amazon.com/Against-Marria…l/dp/0198744005 which makes the case that we should abolish marriage as a state-recognized institution and permit it only as a private ceremony bereft of all legal significance. Maybe this is the course that a society founded on Epicurean principles would opt for. Epicurus himself never married and expressed reservations when it comes to marriage. An Epicurean society should permit Epicurean marriages (they are a perfect opportunity to throw a party!) but we should allow for them to be terminated at any time by any of the two parties without the slightest legal hassles. Christian or Muslim marriages should in my view not be allowed in an Epicurean society.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • October 28, 2023 at 3:06 AM
    Quote from Jo.
    Quote from Peter Konstans

    How would an Epicurean society raise and educate its kids? Since school is so horrendously boring, tedious and unpleasant to children (school is also the only place other than prison where people are quite likely to be bullied and tortured) how would an Epicurean society deal with the problem of educating the new generation?

    I think that much of what makes school boring and unpleasant for children is their lack of choice in what exactly they are learning.

    This isn't exactly a new approach but I think that giving kids the freedom to study what they are actually interested in, once they've got the essentials down, could very much make the whole "school" thing compatible with Epicureanism, without it being much of a dilemma at all. This could ensure that the children are actually happy to learn and that attending school causes them much less pain.

    Bullying is of course a bit trickier. In my experience talking to people about these issues and having an authority figure (who actually knows what they are doing) appeal to the bully's sense of compassion is helpful, though I wouldn't presume my experience to be the only one. However I do believe that talking about it is always good and in the worst cases changing schools is definitely for the best.

    The child would know that removing their pain is the top priority (and that this is more effective than comforting themselves by satisfying unnecessary desires). They might conclude that they should endure the potential pain of pointing out their troubles to avoid the greater pains of bullying or the fact that it interferes with their studying, which could cause them much pain later in life, should they fall behind in class.

    This assumes that most kids are - at least potentially - interested in something taught in school. I would say that, sadly, more than half are not really interested in anything school has to offer and that there's no trick that can change that. Of course everybody - whether they like it or not - has to be literate and numerate in a modern society. But other than that, instead of wasting resources teaching kids lots of material they are either unwilling or unable to absorb, it would be better to pick those that have real talent and focus on educating them so that they can assume upon maturity those jobs and responsibilities that require specialization and education.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • October 15, 2023 at 2:21 PM

    Has anybody noticed that? Great news for pleasure! The legendary silphium plant from Cyrene which Epicurus must have known and possibly even tasted - thought to have gone extinct by the time of Pliny - may have resurfaced in Cappadocia, modern Turkey. There are other proposed candidates as to the identity of this ancient herbaceous rockstar but this is the best bet.

    Hopefully we'll be able to get hold of some seeds in the future so we can resurrect its culinary delights. As an Epicurean I am excited about this. The intoxicatingly attractive smell of this plant would procure us a concrete sensory experience that comes to us directly from the age of Epicurus without the mediation of later centuries. It would be the pure smell of BC antiquity, capable of carrying us aloft and thrusting us though time before gently dropping us in the middle of Epicurus' garden.

    Because of silphium's unique connection with the Greco-Roman world and the association of its native Cyrene with the hedonist school, I think it would be a good idea to incorporate ferula drudeana into the symbolic imagery of modern Epicureanism.

    This miracle plant was eaten into extinction 2,000 years ago—or was it?
    Silphion cured diseases and made food tasty, but Emperor Nero allegedly consumed the last stalk. Now, a Turkish researcher thinks he’s found a botanical…
    www.nationalgeographic.com
  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • October 8, 2023 at 11:47 AM

    In the first century BC the forces of destruction (emanating from the domestic political mistakes of the previous century) were already working in full swing and the situation was no longer salvageable for the Roman Republic. In such a titanic implosion it was impossible for anyone to stand by the wayside and watch. All Epicureans could do at this point is pick the side that suited their personal interests best. And the side that suited the interests of the little guys best was clearly the populist camp. So I agree with you that engaging in violence is not always avoidable for Epicureans and in certain irreversible historical situations engaging in it is the only possible option left for a more pleasant future. Israeli military historian Martin Van Creveld has even cited examples convicingly demonstrating that in periods of war and instability hedonism of all sorts actually tends to flourish and bonds of friendship between people grow stronger and more sensuous. He notes how after the war period people tend to recall the memories of those times with fondness and longing.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • October 6, 2023 at 4:01 PM

    Here are some thoughts about how a theory regarding politics that is compatible with Epicureanism could look like.

    Because justice is relative in Epicureanism it follows that the desire to pursue politics is not ultimately rooted in the pursuit of justice. Politics is rooted in two things: the individual desire for power and recognition on one hand and on the other the collective desire to work together in solidarity for common insurance against the forces of nature as well as against depredations by other human groups.

    From an Epicurean viewpoint, the first desire is natural but not necessary. So for reasons rooted in Epicurean ethics, keeping political ambitions and passions to a bare minimum is always advisable. A culture of modesty in politicians such as that enforced by the ancient Roman censors would be beneficial.

    The second desire is as natural as eating and hydrating and yet fulfilling it is actually painful since it involves individual duties and costs. So justice comes in as a necesssary weapon for ensuring that everyone in a political entity contributes his fair share to our common insurance. The urge for someone to conform with justice as defined above is rooted in two things: 1) personal affinity and benevolence towards the group 2) subtle or violent coercion. The less affinity people have for the group the more coercion is required to have them behave justly and as more coercion is used to that end, overt violence rears its head until a vicious cycle finally tears the group asunder in flames. So for reasons rooted in Epicurean ethics, any action and attitude that could conceivably diminish the benevolent disposition of individuals towards the group (for example extreme wealth inequality or jailing people for trivial matters like drug possession for personal use or treating poor foreigners equally or better than the poorest natives) must be seen as unjust because it invites the violent forces of destruction.

    So a hypothetical Epicurean society would be incompatible with the political culture of ancient Greco-Roman society because the desire for individual glory was too strong. And it would be incompatible with contemporary Western political culture because it encourages habits and attitudes that result in weak affinity towards the group.

  • Epicureanism as the spiritual essence or 'religion' of an entire community

    • Peter Konstans
    • October 6, 2023 at 7:26 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    So are you saying that you have found in your studies that there is in fact not much of a historical precedent for the use of letter-writing for spread of philosophical ideas before Epicurus?

    The use of literary letters in the Greek world is older than Epicurus though not very much older. This genre was originally developed by ancient orators and it was adopted by philosophers (Epicurus was also trained in oratory). Of course the distinction between orators and philosophers was muddy back then. That's why the professional orator and statesman Cicero is also labeled a 'philosopher' even though we was not much of an original thinker.

    Paul was a missionary theologian but the distinction between theologians and philosophers also tended to be murky in antiquity. This is seen for example in how Christian theology adopted many philosophical terms like e. g. the Stoic term pronoia (providence) and changed their content. Just like Paul's letters (which were read during mass for the purposes of catechism) so did the letters of Epicurus function as materials for philosophical catechism.

    The fact that the only specimens coming directly from the pen of Epicurus other than the Kyriai Doxai that survived intact are such letters indicates that their use was more popular among Epicureans to gain new converts and educate themselves compared to his many other authored texts which were voluminous and highly technical and as such not suitable for mass consumption. The Kyriai Doxai is also highly convenient so it's no wonder this managed to survive too.

    Epicureanism had a mission and Epicureans were highly motivated to do what it takes to get as many people as they could to hear their message. Epicurus didn't think of his philosophy as a philosophy like any other. He thought of it as the only true philosophy and the only one of practical and real value.

    It was this missionary-like spirit that goaded Diogenes to take up the expense of erecting a massive rock to transmit Epicurus' message to coming generations. I don't know any other example of people using inscriptions to spread an entire belief system and I don't know any other tradition before Epicureanism that did exactly the same thing using literary epistles. The use of epistles for catechism can't possibly have escaped the notice of non-Epicureans if Epicureanism was indeed popular back then (as it was). But nobody would have had any motive to copy this practice unless they also had their own message to spread to everybody and a strong missionary zeal to go with it. The early Christians were precisely such a movement.

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