Posts by TauPhi

I don't think we are going to reach an agreement regarding the nature of the gods and I don't think it matters, to be honest, as we are just people speculating about something way above our pay grade.

I just want to clarify that it was never my intention to eliminate gods from Epicureanism. The gods are integral and significant part of the philosophy. I'm first to admit it. I do study Epicurean theology as any other aspect of the philosophy but to my current knowledge, that aspect seems to be a weak link in the philosophy and I am definitely not going to pretend that emulation of gods is a viable option FOR ME just because Epicurus said so. I find insistence on emulation of unknown as dangerous as following any other gods people came up with through the history of mankind.

I hope I'm perfectly clear that it's my own personal stance on the topic and every conversation I'm involved in on this forum regarding gods is only my attempt to get some clarification and further study. I'm not interested in trying to convince anyone of anything I know very little about. Just in case someone gets the wrong impression that I'm against Epicureanism - I'm not. I find it fascinating and useful, most of the time.

All right, I guess you're right about Freddie. I am going to be as rigorous as I possibly can for the remainder of this post. Nobody should worry - there will be enough balloons for now.

Quote from Cassius

Letter to Menoeceus [123] The things which I used unceasingly to commend to you, these do and practice, considering them to be the first principles of the good life. First of all believe that god is a being immortal and blessed, even as the common idea of a god is engraved on men’s minds, and do not assign to him anything alien to his incorruption or ill-suited to his blessedness: but believe about him everything that can uphold his blessedness and incorruption.

If the gods are incorruptible that means they cannot be corrupted. That also mean they do not have to act to maintain their blessedness as it cannot be taken from them. They are immortal. And since only atoms, void and the universe as a placeholder for them are eternal and cannot be corrupted, thanks to the Epicurean gods we can kiss Epicurean atomism bye, bye.

If the gods have to act to maintain their blessedness so we can emulate their work, that means they are corruptible. It also means they are not perfectly blessed as they have at least one worry on their minds all the time: Do not forget to act or you'll go poof.

Even if someone can explain to me how incorruptibility and blessedness can be married with atomism (for which I would be eternally grateful, so to speak) I'd still have to ask: How are we supposed to emulate incorruptibility and blessedness? How is it not asking a gnat to start juggling with bowling pins?

So, until someone shows me a way out, by rigorously applying the viewpoint that some things are possible and some things are not possible in our universe, I must conclude that Epicurean gods are the latter.

Thanks Cassius. I don't have issues with the possibility of existence of more advanced species in the universe. If someone asked me to make a bet I'd put my money that such species are out there. I even wouldn't be surprised to find out that some of these species figured out a way to considerably extend their lives and they make the best out of their lives. And I'm all on board with exploration of the universe outside of our planet to the best of our abilities. The same goes with the exploration of the subatomic realm.

My issue is with the emulation of gods as suggested in Epicureanism. To emulate anything we at the very least need to be exposed to it to have a vague idea of what we are supposed to be emulating. The only exposure in Epicureanism I'm aware of is 'eidola' and that is nothing more that: 'Hey, I imagined something so it must be true. From now on I will emulate it.' And with that approach I can only hope nobody starts imagining Freddie Kruger in a birthday balloon shop.

Quote from Cassius

In emulating the gods, we would not only be emulating a *result*, but one aspect of that role model that we would be emulating comes in realizing that the gods, just like us, must act to maintain their blessedness. This would help stengthen the usefulness of the suggestion that the gods are objects of emulation -- Epicurus would be suggesting that we not only emulate them in result, but that we are emulation the act of working to sustain blessedness. I agree with DeWitt's suggestion that this would be a logical extension of Epicurus' theories about the gods.

So the gods, who live in intermundia do not and cannot interact with us. We on the other hand, cannot and do not interact with them. Both species live entirely disconnected lives under completely different circumstances and yet we are supposed to be emulating the gods. It's like asking a gnat to start juggling with bowling pins.

And how realization that the gods must act to maintain blessedness is supposed to have any effect of humans? We need to act to live blessed lives regardless of what gods supposedly do or don't do.

I know I'm usually harsh as far as Epicurean theology is concerned, but I'm raising this points with good intentions as I'm still trying to understand and find a logical connection between this aspect of Epicureanism and the rest of the philosophy.

Quote from Cassius

A ha! A major confession! Tau Phi is not a LISTMAKER!

I begin over the years to think that some form of habit of listmaking or outlining is a requirement of being a "good Epicurean!"

Haha. I'm caught red-handed. Thank intermundian god I'm not an Epicurean, good or otherwise.

Now, however, I'm fully dedicated to 'Things I Forgot While Shopping' list which probably promotes me to a little more Epicurean but also a little more twisting the knife in my own wound person. I call it a good Saturday.

Quote from Julia

One of the few pieces of writing which tend to describe absolute truths is my Things I Forgot While Shopping list ).

Firstly, I'm stealing this line from you.

Secondly, I'm laughing at it as I was forced to drink unsweetened tea this morning because I'd forgotten to buy some honey yesterday. I guess making shopping lists wouldn't be the worst idea in the world. Yet, my perverse, introspective mind likes 'Things I Forgot While Shopping' list so much better.

I'm starting to doubt if having conscious, introspective mind is worth it. If I were an ancient Greek at least I could hope for uncontrolled, non-introspective flood of the honey 'eidola' at the right time (that is while shopping in ancient supermarkets, of course). But no, my stupid, 21st century mind was distracted with thoughts like: Why on Earth two 250g bags of nuts are cheaper than one 500g bag of the same nuts? That's nuts! (Yep, I'm that infantile and my 40-someting-year-old mind made me laugh at this. Again.)

Very interesting post Julia . Thank you.

It reminded me about a book I meant to read but never had. I can't vouch for it as the theory presented there is highly speculative and hasn't been really put to any reliable tests, (to my knowledge - I might be wrong as I'm writing without any recent research on the topic), but based on your post I'm guessing you might want to check it out, if you're unfamiliar with it.

The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I can't point out any errors as I don't know any Greek but I certainly can point out that this is a great effort. My little Epicurean library just got a little bigger. Thank you very much Bryan

Quote from Little Rocker

Donkeys are amazing! And they also avoid politics!

And there's at least one donkey who actively contributed to Epicureanism. His name is Feridun and he stars in a beautiful documentary on Diogenes of Oinoanda.

If one has half an hour to spare, I highly recommend watching the documentary to see the actual place of the inscription and listen to one of the unsung heroes of Epicureanism - Prof. Martin Ferguson Smith.

When I was checking the sources mentioned in that translation, I learnt two things that may be of interest to someone:

1) The source of the image is available on archive.org and there's a lot of additional good stuff there (in German):

Sitzungsberichte Der Koniglich Preussischen Akademie Der Wissenschafte : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Erster Halbband. Januar bis Juni (Acc. No. 26838); Zweiter Halbband. Juli bis December (Acc. No. 26839)

archive.org

2) C. W. Chilton (mentioned on that webpage) also wrote: Diogenes of Oenoanda, The Fragments. A Translation and Commentary. Both in Latin and English. I guess there are new fragments available since the date of the publication (1971) but I thought I would mention this work just in case.

Bryan You mentioned you were looking for an English translation. Take a look here. I hope it helps.

Laudator Temporis Acti: P. Oxy. 215

Quote from Cassius

I think that is an excellent point and it is where I (intuitively) think Epicurus is coming from.

You don't need to rely on intuition in this case. Epicurus deviated from Democritean physics by limiting the variety of atoms. By doing this he automatically put a stop to 'anything goes' universe.

Quote from Cassius

In addition, we have no reason to think, and therefore we should not think, that there are "other universes" in which there are an infinitely larger number of infinite types of atoms that do in fact create an "anything goes" environment.

I disagree. We should think about everything we are capable of imagining. Almost all of these ideas will be proven wrong but by thinking about everything we can think of, at least we give ourselves a chance of coming up with something brilliant.

Quote from Cassius

So what IS this guy's point?

In the quotation you provided, it is clear that this guy makes up arguments as he goes to support his point which can be challenged by a five-years-old.

... It is discovered that the universe is finite? Really? By whom?
... Materialist naturalism is crumbing? Really? Where besides this guy's own mind?
... Improbability of the miracle that is life... Right. That explains everything. Let's go with miracles, unicorns and rainbows. That approach is so much better than putting effort in studying our surroundings.

My initial thoughts. I didn't spend any time validating them so feel free to correct me as I probably got some of the stuff wrong.

Quote from Cassius

So as I understand this issue in Epicurean terms, certain things are possible, and others are impossible, no matter how much time or space are involved. Donating an infinitely large number of typewriters to an infinitely large number monkeys for an infinite time will NEVER produce the complete works of Shakespeare.

The example with the monkeys doesn't illustrate the claim preceding the example. In our universe we don't have infinity of possible creations. As far as matter is concerned, the variety of atoms is strictly limited by universal laws governing the universe. Since we have limited building blocks types and constrains in the form of universal laws which have to be obeyed, the universe is not a place where anything goes.
The monkey example has no restrictions and non-zero chance under unrestricted conditions changes to certainty occurring infinite numbers of times.

Quote from Cassius

So I would think that the "chances" of repetition of things that we know to exist is far greater than the chance of occurrence of things that we intuitively grasp have never existed in our experience

That sentence is true only if we talk about possible things in the universe which is finite and lasts for finite amount of time. In infinite universe the chances of occurrence of possible things whether known or unknown to us is the same and it's infinite.

Haha. I guess this is the case where you need to train your senses to see illusions.
Anti-Epicurean jokes aside, the easiest way to approach it would be:

1. Make the picture full screen (or just quite big)
2. Put your face close to the screen (let's say 8 inches)
3. Cross your eyes gently
4. Move away slowly with your eyes crossed but focused at the centre of the picture.
5. At one point your vision should focus and you should see my message at the centre in the 3rd dimension.

All this might not work if your sight is heavily impaired or you're neurologically incapable of perceiving depth. Otherwise, with a bit of practice you should realise it's not Greek but English.

I have been playing with autostereograms recently and I thought I'll create one for you, my Epicurean Friends. If you're not afraid of cross-eyed vergence, learn how to take that peculiar look at the picture below. I left a note for you at the very centre of it. Have fun.

Quote from Don

Oh, I didn't mean in any language proficiency way or idiosyncratic way! Sorry if I implied that.

Don You're such a good guy it never even crossed my mind you could want to say something inconsiderate. Nothing to be sorry about. I was just trying to make a (bad) joke and explain that I'm not a dude who likes conversations like:

Someone: -It's a nice weather.
Definitely not me: -Well, but what do you mean by 'nice' and 'weather' and 'it's'.

And yes, I pretty much meant what you said above.

Quote from Don

I guess it depends on one's definition of "predictable" in any given conversation.

In any given conversation with me you don't need to guess my definitions of words. I don't redefine words for my personal needs. I stick to 21st century English as it is generally accepted. That said, I am not a native speaker so I muddy the waters sometimes. When I do, it's because I haven't mastered the language properly not because I feel like vasring deemerorus adere offdac zxxcxcxcvggg.

Quote from Don

Physics (modern physics) does seem to say we live in a deterministic universe due to physical laws. However, that doesn't mean we live in a fully predictable universe per chaos theory.

It also doesn't mean we DON'T live in a fully predictable universe. It only means we don't have sufficient knowledge and processing power to determine chaotic predictability with perfect accuracy. For this reason, whether we live in a deterministic universe under the illusion of free will or we truly have free will is indistinguishable to us - at least for now.

My (I hope, at least) thoughts Bryan 's post #21.

Quote from Bryan

One of the tricks of "modern thought/education" is to make the student think they are coming up with the ideas themselves individually (and therefore hold those ideas more deeply) when in reality they really end up only believing and repeating what they have been told.

That's an interesting view. The first question that pops into my head is why would educators go to great lengths creating a system aimed at tricking people into becoming repeating mindless automatons? What is so beneficial in having sterile societies? And how any progress would be possible? When I was around 10 years old I was blown away when I discovered what my 1 Mhz Commodore 64 personal computer could do. Now I'm typing this text on a laptop with processing power 2000 times higher. That increase hasn't magically materialised by repetition and belief of the same old ideas.

Quote from Bryan

I believe that having new thoughts is very rare -- people are considered smart when they can repeat what they hear -- and most people have to struggle for years to even be able to repeat what they hear!

I guess new groundbreaking, world-shattering thoughts are very rare but we all have so many thoughts each day that even if only a fraction of them can be considered 'new' to us, I'd argue the rarity of personal new thoughts. Today my niece thought to dip a sausage in a strawberry yogurt. Probably not a 'new' idea worldwide but it was new to her. She quickly realised it was a bad one.
Also, if people are considered smart solely for their ability to repeat, I would question the smartness of the 'considerators'.

Quote from Bryan

Widely accepted, promoted, and permitted modern ideas are mostly just re-packaged judeo-christianty -- everybody is the same, non-physical forces exist, the universe has a beginning, etc, etc...

I don't think I know even one person who would claim that everybody is the same. I can clearly hear a ghost of my dead grandfather complaining that nobody pay any attention to him and I'm pretty sure the widely accepted view regarding the universe is: 'We don't know. We have some theories but we can't really tell.'

Quote from Bryan

Given this, I like admit to myself that I am only a follower. But I am proud that I choose to follow someone who is an honest leader and not someone cynically manipulating the thought of the public in the same old and absurd ways.

I had pleasure talking to you more than once, Bryan . You're not just a follower. You think, you wonder and you say interesting things your honest leader didn't even have a chance to come up with. My point is, please reconsider if you're not a bit too harsh with the assessment of the world around you. The world is obviously not perfect since strawberry yogurt doesn't go well with sausages but the public contains a lot of individuals willing to dip stuff in other stuff until some good stuff emerges.

Don and Cassius. Thank you for comments. Posts like that make me smile. Thanks. I won't be commenting on most of the points you brought up because I simply have nothing to add as I find them really good. I'll focus on few things I want to add to, instead.

Quote from Don

I don't think the "ideology" was concealed. I think the ideology - I'd say the teaching and tenets of the school - was completely on display, like a menu posted at the door of a restaurant. That's why people joined.

I would think the same but something doesn't add up when I look closely. Despite the school encouraged the study of nature, which is as 'scientific' approach as it possibly could be at the time, the same school attracted people with unscientific, pious, almost cult like behaviour towards Epicurus and his teachings putting him in a weird position of some kind of a saviour, god or something like that. I called it a concealed ideology as I suspect something I don't know, or understand, was going on behind the scenes. On top of that, what was completely on display, also leaves me scratching my head sometimes. (yes, I'm thinking 'the real gods' in intermundia, for example). Materialistic school with pious students? Eternal gods made of matter? I guess you can cook a duck and duck a cook at the same time but it's kinda weird

I'm not trying to belittle Epicureanism in any way, I simply try to understand what ancient Epicureanism was really like. And I post my doubts here in hopes of getting stuff clarified. That's why I'm grateful for anyone willing to spend time discussing things like that with me.

Quote from Don

I want to state explicitly that there's nothing wrong with charting one's own course, taking a cafeteria approach to a life philosophy (to stay with the metaphor). Choosing dishes that work for the person. I took that approach myself in the past. However, I feel that starting with an established philosophy or religion or lifestyle gets you further down the road. It's not necessarily nefarious to want to use the cookbook from someone who appears to know how to cook.

Absolutely agree. I am an eclectic (and an Epicurean friend at the same time) and it works for me. If someone chooses different approach, I can be only happy if their choice works for them. I'm not trying to prove my approach to be better. I don't think it to be better. What matters to me is that it's good for me and I share it with good intentions. Ultimately, it's none of my business if people use cookbooks on the nose or choose to spice their meals to their liking. It's their food, not mine.