Eh... My foray into psychedelics was pretty disasterous and almost entirely led to my adoption of Naturalism and Epicureanism. I had the psychedelic ideology in the back of my mind since I was a teenager as something I wanted to pursue someday. Eventually, I tried "mere" marijuana for a very short period of about 2 weeks. Spent the next year in and out of psyche wards because of it and the next 8 years in and out of pyschosis, attempting to piece the mind back together again. Needless to say that whole tree I was barking up has been completely uprooted and turned to kindling in my mind and now makes a pleasant, but roaring fire to which I throw all manner of superstition, magickal thinking and transcendent ideations and impulses onto. Still though I am not opposed to people doing them or opposed to people who do them, I just view their experiences and insights concerning it with very little value since adopting Epicurean Hedonism. It is complete dumb luck that I happened upon the one Philosophy that would singularly be the antidote to my ills...
My experiences with insanity and the residual foul memories and conceptions, generally has me taking the position that if "the supernatural" however one wishes to concieve of it were real, I would still regard it as extremely low value compared to just normal, naturalistic world as I perceive it. Epicurus' animal Gods that carry on formal friendships, self-sustaining activity and all the rest, is just way more relatable and frankly healthier way to view "ideal" beings that we allegedly all for better or worse have notions of in our minds. The theology redeems the whole idea of Gods for me.
Posts by Root304
-
-
Julia
Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply!
While I recognize that I have geographic, ethnic and gender advantages in my favor, I also have fortunately known, congregated and am among many poor and frugal folk who understand the true value of a friend. You can make so much happen in terms of material and moral enrichment even with meager means if you indeed hold your friends close and your enemies afar. Living one's life receiving and repaying wiselike, in excess and in kind is a most gratifying way to live under the present conditions.and as a person, I reside within a human, but I am not it, and as such, my body is as much my environment as the flat I use to shelter it, and the society I use to shelter that flat.
I suppose in studying Epicureanism's doctrine of the Soul, I came to see myself as the totality of my body, and the mind as just another piece of it that is important, but I am more expansive than that. Even though some of my body's functions are unconscious does not mean they aren't me, or that I can't apprehend it's thoughts with my mind. The "immortality" of Epicurean friendship surely extends to who and what I am in the world as I appear to others as well. My Father, who has past, was to me not his mind but the way he was received to me through the senses and emotions; smells, feelings, touch, voice, etc. The Epicurean soul must surely include the biochemical, mental and bodily memories between people as well.
As for immortality being a part of Epicurean Theology, I honestly part ways with Philodemus there. Living for exceedingly long times is another fear of mine. -
I usually take the approach that it wouldn't take imagining things exceedingly different or extraordinary to get to Epicurean Godhood. If some lower class folks in the Epicurean hayday could get much from the philosophy then blessedness must not be too far out of grasp for me living in the 21st century American context. I also read a lot of more left-wing anthropology, so I usually imagine Gods as some sort of subsistence farming or hunter gathering community; or a culture that reconstitutes their society with the seasons or generationally to continue to live blessedly and in balance with the psychic impulses of the human animal to that end. I think about this more scaled-down vision as a personal and achieveable goal I am working towards i.e. living in a tighter-knit community with friends and not just the nuclear family. Yang Zhu had a particular valorization of the "the ancients" in his context from my limited study of his system, so this look to the past fits with that tradition.
I'm not really too interested in futurism as I find tech integration and most transhuman concepts beyond healing diseases to be pretty disconcerting. I do like a good blanket Star Trek-like vision for futurity if I am considering it, though I am not that familiar or interested in the details of that franchises' lore.
I think Epicurean philosophy applies to humans and other similar enough biological entities no matter where in technological progression they find themselves in. Perhaps it's good practice to contemplate Epicurean Godhood at every stage of development we can imagine: the Blessed Epicurean ancients (and look to those who still live close to that presently) and the Epicurean future, in order to better reason to how we can live an Epicurean present which is accelerating technologically. The theology could be a way to understand that blessedness comes in many varieties and is possible to nearly grasp in most contexts. -
I just want to preface this thread by saying that I think there are many really great ways to parent children, but it can be a touchy subject. I hope that we can all respect and learn from each other.
I'm sure many of us are all of one mind that we shouldn't present myths as facts about reality, but I think tying mythos to imaginative play is one way to introduce mythical concepts to children. Imagination play is important at the critical young ages of about 2 to 7. (Here's a Scientific American Article on this.) The inevitability that my kids will at the very least be exposed to religious stories and ideas means I try to be proactive in introducing them to these concepts. Both of my kids are under 8 years old and I use folklore creatures in imaginative play to explore "magic" and "mystery" that they are already exposed to from the broader culture. I bring the kids half-way in on the subterfuge by having them take part in making the magical games playout for their sibiling for example. A gnome, brownie or mermaid I feel is more approachable and not so mentally overpowering as Gods; because modern lore about them and the lore we homebrew, doesn't convey "power over" dynamics, but are more mischieveous or have "power with" dynamics that models the sorts of social power I'd like my kids to exercise. (referencing Mary Parker Follet's work here) I see them both often grappling and playing with notions of "infinity" and huge numbers, and attaching an all-knowing, all powerful personality that could be angry with them to that sort of thought seems a bit cruel to me. Another upside to Epicurean theology here. Folklore creatures also tend to be more natural-world oriented which has drawn my kids' attention away from the magical worlds in media like video games and movies towards creating a little magic for them out in the natural world. So in this way I feel like I am teaching them that the magic that exists is what we create for ourselves and other people.
As for the afterlife, that one is a bit trickier as my oldest has a bit of death anxiety. So even though I generally tell them many things leading to the idea that we cease to be after death and the benefits of believing that, they do explore afterlife narratives. I think it's fair for a young one to entertain these idealistic notions in coming to terms with death. Dreams are often a big part of discourse with the kids so I will talk about how the deceased, as well as mythical creatures, can appear in our dreams, but I don't tie these things to anything supernatural. These things are part of the human experience, so I should talk about them as possiblities. Also, that we all change over time and our former selves "die" as we take on new roles or resonsibilities in this life; hinting that this may explain some concepts about the afterlife. I suppose in these ways I have the kids entertain the possibility of idealistic myths, but also naturalize these ideas.
Don
That all sounds great! I am doing UU with my two as well right now, and we also try to do nature hikes and museums trips.Being intentional about meal time seems very Epicurean to me. I try to do something similar though we don't always have the time, schedule or energy to make it happen every night. We do try to make it special when we do eat at the table with less direct, dimmer lighting and have a candle going with some music. I'm reading a book about the Danish notion of 'hyyge' (HOO-gah) which (as I understand it) describes the atmosphere of coziness and coviviality with good company that also encompasses ideas about lighting in a living or social space, and I am having fun trying to get the lighting in my house just right for meal time.
Maybe another thread exploring that sometime...
Anyway, this is getting long. I'll leave it at that for some more back and forth before introducing any new ideas. Feel free to jump right in to more decidedly Epicurean parenting discussion. I will be gathering my thoughts on that for another post soon. -
That is a great question for members of this forum whom are parents. Many of whom are raising and educating their children from an Epicurean perspective without any overwhelming challenges besides simply being parents struggling with the normal challenges of raising children. One difference, among others, would be that we would not raise young members of an Epicurean society to entertain the possibility of idealistic myths, like an afterlife.
If anyone would like to philosophize about Epicurean parenting, start a thread or PM me! Maybe I'll start a thread about it if there is any interest, as I would like to expound and contest that last statement in the quote.
-
I grew up on 20 acres of pasture land, but my parents must not have seen the merits in introducing me to things like gardening or tending to livestock much, though we had those things. So I never acquired a real desire to produce food. I am more of a value added type of guy, turning that food into fermented beverages.
My wife is big on house plants and I do have a sole pothos plant next to my statue of Epicurus that I thought I'd get to be in solidarity with her, and to notice/remember my Epicurus. It has survived many dryspells of me forgetting about it for weeks.
As for living off the land, that may be something I have in the cards as some friends of mine and I are pooling our money together early next year for some land to have our commune on. So that's fun to think about.
-
"Pleasure" is so nuanced in Epicureanism, and in my own contemplation in using the Cannon, that I really don't attempt to engage in debate with people about "the Good" being Pleasure. I usually begin with the intricacies of the Canon and physics versus other forms of reasoning, if I am going to debate or discuss in mixed settings. Though when I am with my Epicurean friends who already understand, or just people that really understand emotions, we talk a lot about pleasure being the ultimate good.
-
It definitely was a big shift for me from deep mental affliction due to chasing "the divine", to living pleasantly in a relatively short period of time with the philosophy. I feel like the philosophy was meant for all, but particularly for someone like who I was about 2 years ago to about 2014: bedeviled by the "Gods" and constantly fearing death. So, I am bit of a zealot, a reveler, a "born again" type about Epicureanism.
-
I've yet to be be drawn to any particular God that made sense for me to set up a votive image of and think about in terms of Epicurean veneration. I've thought about it, maybe even desired it, and probably given it too much thought. But for me the Heroic figure of Epicurus and his Friends are enough for me to get the job done in terms of votive images to set up or figures to think about while reciting passages, remembering or otherwise reflecting on the teachings. I wouldn't know exactly what I would be doing with a hunting Goddess like the Finnish Mielikki or the Saint of Hunting in Saint Hubert, for examples of figures I've thought about venerating, beyond toying with abstract concepts about the practice of hunting has had on my life and humankind. I'd be better off having an image of my father who was quite the hunter-gatherer when he was alive. Bringing abstract concepts back to memories, relationships, Friendships, seems more Epicurean to me. Let photographs and other objects that remind me of my Friendships, be my votive images.
-
I realize it's well past Valentine's Day, but I didn't really celebrate it this year as I did something alternative to that instead.
This year for my partner's birthday in January, I just decided to dedicate the whole first half of the month just to her on a whim and do something spontaneous for her every day for the first 19 days leading up to her birthday. I did everything I had ever thought about but lacked the time, nerves, or gumption to just do it. I wrote love letters, poems, gave gifts, set up elaborate dates, scrambling to come up with something everyday was a challenge but was a wonderful exercise. It was a fantastic start of the year to clear out all those thoughts and intentions from the previous 2 decades, and it was a good show for kids who now like to "declare" certain days for a member of the family or a friend, or some whimsical holiday.
-
Thank you all for your supportive responses! It means an enormous amount to me. The forum regulars and the regulars on Lucretius Today are like rock stars to me.
I would be interested to hear more about what you think of your group's interests. If they are into "lifestyle improvement" then definitely Living for Pleasure. If they are into technicals of philosophy and the decline and fall of western civilization, then that is another approach where we can make other recommendations.
From what they have expressed and from what I intuit, most folks are more interested in discussing practicable things like how to live a more pleasurable life, some are interested in studying hedonistic thought more generally and others are just quite new to philosophy but whom I have gotten interested in Epicurus. I don't think I'm going to have to contend with a pronounced Stoic influence with this group. These are more culturally Left folks. I think my goal is to balance getting into the weeds on philosophy and Epicurean history, with philosophizing about practices to live a more pleasurable life. In terms of studying philosophy, I want to start with studying Epicurus as in-depth as we need to go, and then if the group lasts beyond that, move into Cyrenaic, Utilitarian and other sensual philosophies and authors. Establishing that base Epicurean lens would be appropriate as I want to make the very best case for "hedonistic" and "sensual" philosophy first.
Mulling over these replies today, I think I'm pretty adamant about keeping everything free at least in the beginning. So with this access to DeWitt, I think I'm going to start out with some selections from "Epicurus and his Philosophy" that would give a good historical and philosophical context. I won't "assign" the entire book chapter by chapter right out of the gate unless people are really into it. I know when I read the first chapter or two, naïve as it is, I had to just stop for awhile and ponder what this meant for my entire view of history. It really got me excited about Epicurus.
Then, as Kalosyni suggests, perhaps we could move into reading some Epicurus, and some other ancient source material that may be of interest to Epicurean "practices" to start the discussion on what some folks came for. I realize that studying and contemplating the philosophy is the major way one practices Epicureanism, and I think people would come to appreciate that idea once they have a bit of a longer look at it. Yet there are also ways we can talk about branching out from that as well.
Going over some of the Principal Doctrines with my partner who doesn't have a philosophical background, I felt confident enough to provide some decent contextual clues and cues drawn from the many hours of listening to Lucretius Today that I could help her draw more from the rather dense text, pointing to the various philosophical moves Epicurus was making. Along the way, I could point to the DeWitt text for further reading, as well as, Lucretius Today podcasts for listening. As the group assembles a direction of inquiry, we could chart a course on where to go next in terms of texts we read together, whether that's Dr. Austin's book if we need more of a refresher, or Dr. Rucker's book as Don shared or something like it to keep things in the realm of practices, or deeper down the Epicurean rabbit hole with Lucretius. I've only read parts of Lucretius so I personally would like to get to that sooner rather than later.
Let me know what you think of this path if you like, and thanks again for the replies! -
This feels like a mix of "Activism" and "Epicurean Practice", but it seems right to put this here in Activism.
I decided I wanted to set aside time with some interested folks I know to read Epicurean texts and engage in discussion. Most if not all of the folks interested consider themselves Epicureans, are sympathetic to Epicurus or are sympathetic to Naturalistic worldviews. Some are already familiar with each other so I'm expecting it will be pretty laid back. It's more of a private group with friends, family, mutual acquaintances; rather than an open, public group.
Anyway, I had questions and concerns:
- I'm wanting to make it pretty leisurely for people new to philosophical discussion (like myself). I'm also not trying to set myself up as an authority on Epicureanism or represent myself as some authority from EpicureanFriends.com . However, I will likely promote the philosophy more or less as it's presented here, as that is how I generally came to an understanding of it. So, I would like to encourage participants who seem very interested in the details of the philosophy to check out this forum. Would it be welcome and appropriate to send people from the group here, or make mention of this site? Also, would using any memes or graphics from this site be welcome?
- I'd like to get to DeWitt's Epicurus and his Philosophy with a group one day. However, I think starting with a shorter text might be welcome with this group, and using free resources would be best so as not to exclude or dissuade anyone from participating. I'd also like to utilize audiobooks, video if quality content exists, or even suggested Lucretius Today podcasts if that would be welcome; as I know some would much prefer those ways of engaging. Where would be a good place to start, that might be shorter as well as having audio or video support? Should I just stick with the tried and true, with DeWitt?
Any other thoughts, concerns, considerations or tips are welcome. Thanks! -
I find the Chat GPT to be a useful tool in filling in obvious holes in my own questioning, and even some rudimentary reasoning and giving me a pretty good story to start a search for information with. That story-crafting can save an enormous amount of time. I think of it as a next generation search engine. It also generally reaches the limits of what sorts of information is readily available through online sources, and when I actually get into deeper questions and minutiae, Chat GPT tends to dry up. It's also great to ask it for book titles for further research. Give it a few rounds of Socratic questioning and you will likely find some jumping off points into academic research. It's going to change academia in some big ways that could actually be positive in a more optimistic view. Sure there's a lot of disconcerting elements about it. We live under a regime of information tech "progress", creative destruction and disruption without a lot of social progress happening, so deep concern is a reasonable response.
As for Epicurean studies, communities like this will always be a great place to really explore beyond the readily available knowledge, and actually get to philosophizing ourselves. Especially since the goal is to reconstruct an understanding of the original philosophy. -
-
Welcome! I can relate to your story of Epicurus accompanying big life changes. The philosophy has been an illuminating companion for me over the past 2 years or so of study.
-
For me, an "Epicurean Friendship" is someone to which I share a said or unsaid mutalistic relationship with. By mutualistic I mean we will literally help one another survive, literally in the struggle of economy, or likewise in correcting our moral character to better survive and thrive in the social arena. It's largely about security. My nuclear family, therefore, is the arena of deepest Epicurean Friendship for me as that is were the deepest solidarity and the deepest work of my soul goes on. With other extended family or friends depending on whether we share that deep sense, or actuality, of solidarity. Not all my good Friendships are Epicurean Friendships, and not all my Epicurean Friendships are of notable quality of pleasure as some other forms of Friendships, and that's all ok.
But perhaps I am mistaken in my understanding of Epicurus. putting such an emphasis on security and the lack of fear that comes from having that safety net.
-
I am interested! If there are any threads on where the group discourse is on the topic of Epicurean therapeutics, I'd like to try to read and prepare more for it! I don't often get around to reading all the wonderful threads and posts here. I've been exploring Narrative Psychology in the context of therapeutic work with Gods, with the idea of using evocation to achieve a pious (in the Epicurean sense) view of the Gods. But I don't want to keep bringing in ideas from left field as I've been tending to do.
-
I want to say the difference between Epicureanism as an intellectual pursuit and Epicureanism as potentially a faith or religion is when you get intentional with ritual technology; votive offerings, olfactory activation, meditation techniques, prayer-like recitation of the texts, communal singing. That sort of thing.
-
My kids are still quite young, but I just try to live an Epicurean life, talk about it whenever they bring up what I believe like it were any other belief system and trust they will pick it up through our house culture. When they start asking more directly about religion and philosophy later, it will be more understood why we used phrases like, "how do we ask more pleasantly?" when teaching etiquette growing up, whose that bust is that on the bookcase and when we make decisions during house meeting why we planned ways to have "the most pleaurable time" as we go about living and working.
As to the Holidays, I have them fairly often as they are fun to plan some kooky social game and/or group building ritual, and makes time stretch out longer. Doing something for Eikas which roughly falls near the Wheel of the Year holidays is a good way to celebrate with friends or to celebrate with just your family. The Atheopagan community has a few calendars built around the Wheel of the Year (solstices and equinoxes) on how to take these holidays and do something non-theist, non-supernatural with them if you can't get people to convene around Epicurean Philosophy every month, which was a problem I ran into. As I said I have fun coming up with, and allowing others to come up with, fun ceremonies or games to do, and sometimes they can be quite moving and brings our friend and family group together - almost like a religion.
-
Hello Ben! Welcome.
I have some interest in intentional communities and have lived in housing co-ops in the past. Most of that interest is spent on my household culture with close family and friends these days. We celebrate Eikas together from time to time.
Intentional community is quite an endeavor to embark on, and requires building a lot of different skill sets and cultural frameworks that are pretty foreign to run of the mill, Western nuclear families. And to multiply the complexity, you have to bring the group along with you. I am open to discussion, perhaps in DM as it would probably involve a lot of non-Epicurean sources of info.
Unread Threads
-
- Title
- Replies
- Last Reply
-
-
-
Would Epicurus say: "Infinite Time contains no more pain than limited time when the limit of pain is measured by reason?" 15
- Cassius
July 20, 2024 at 10:44 PM - General Discussion
- Cassius
July 25, 2024 at 11:01 AM
-
- Replies
- 15
- Views
- 473
15
-
-
-
-
The Normal Curve of Pleasure 5
- kochiekoch
July 22, 2024 at 1:28 PM - General Discussion
- kochiekoch
July 23, 2024 at 5:59 PM
-
- Replies
- 5
- Views
- 311
5
-
-
-
-
Emily Austin conversation rebroadcast on Next Big Idea! 2
- Don
July 23, 2024 at 9:33 AM - General Discussion
- Don
July 23, 2024 at 10:44 AM
-
- Replies
- 2
- Views
- 178
2
-
-
-
-
"If You Wish To Be An Epicurean, Get Used To Being Called 'Cockeyed'" - or - "Why Vatican Saying 29 Would Make A Good Epicurean Tatoo" 3
- Cassius
July 9, 2024 at 7:57 AM - General Discussion
- Cassius
July 22, 2024 at 8:43 PM
-
- Replies
- 3
- Views
- 644
3
-
-
-
-
Does PD26 imply personal responsibility beyond oneself? 4
- Godfrey
July 11, 2024 at 3:22 PM - PD 26 - Of desires, all that do not lead to a sense of pain...
- Godfrey
July 11, 2024 at 5:43 PM
-
- Replies
- 4
- Views
- 402
4
-