OK to be sure I understand correctly, the next meeting is tomorrow then, right? We're doing a Wednesday evening meeting this week, yes?
Posts by Scott
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To all contributors to this thread (including Kalosyni and Godfrey, but most especially Don, @Nate & Cassius
I'm going to delete this post after leaving it up long enough for you to read it, because I'm not adding anything of substance here and I don't want to clutter things up. I only wanted a way to say I continue to be deeply impressed and am SUPER excited to see where this thread has been going! It "feels" like Epicurus is really being uncovered and his voice is becoming possible to hear even though he must speak to us through the accumulated dust of so many centuries and translations and a whirling dervish of individuals and idioms and tropes and cultural paradigms. This is the kind of detective work that the academy should be doing but it seems that to date has been done so much less than is needed, and I just can't imagine how you do this level of work - and keep up your "day jobs"!!! 
Thank you so much for all your incredibly valuable contributions to understanding EP in this thread (AND in all the others!). This is such a significant and insightful philosophy with such potential to add sanity to the world, and it's so very unfortunate that besides the great sense of satisfaction you must enjoy from this work, there is no other award you earn more than some trophy icons in the EF! 
I just can't thank enough. I wish there were a glorious host of supernatural angels to applaud from heaven!
Bowing low,
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Welcome Marabrabant to a most interesting philosophy discussion forum! I'm pretty new here myself and am really enjoying learning about EP. It is not as well known as many other philosophies, but is very unique and I think, refreshing!!! Enjoy!
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we have found that Epicurus uses a variety of cases, tenses, and inflections of AΓAΘOΣ (or "good") to describe pleasant things, instrumental actions, a noble standard, a category of virtues, and an expression of pleasure. The abundance of this term leads to a cultural and linguistic displacement of "the Good" from its Platonic throne. It becomes reduced it to a frank, non-technical meaning, usually indicating either as "a pleasant thing", "that which is pleasant", or "pleasantness".
I don't know as much as you do about this, @Nate (and Don ...and many others in this forum!) but I would hope the above is correct regarding Epicurus. Trying to lock down a term like "Summum Bonum" / "Greatest Good" or "The Most Important Thing" etc is something that doesn't resonate with what I "feel" from Epicurus and EP. Even the term pleasure is referencing something with variation and nuance beyond what that word can capture. It is possible to focus to much on terminology. I mean I realize one has to be clear, but one can also spend too much time on it. At the end of the day, it seems to me the EP life should be measured by its practical results in a person, not in the beauty or consistency of its philosophical terminology or even its rationality .
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I think a danger is that it brings to mind the Platonic uppercase Good
I agree, SimonC - we do that and we'll end up like those Men in Black trainees ...the "Best of the Best of the Best!!!"
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I don't understand the hesitancy to accept the word "good."
I agree with Don. There's nothing bad about the word good. It may not be the best, but its better than most.
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There remains one telos for all humans, but not every human will be able or willing to see that or follow it to it's end.
Don I want to understand your point here. I agree many persons may not be "willing" to see pleasure as telos, guide and goal [which to me seems obvious] - but by the word "able" do you mean many humans will not have the cognitive CAPACITY to understand? Surely only someone with VERY limited mental ability would have trouble with this. I think the basic thrust of EP with pleasure as goal, it easy to understand. So I'm wondering if I just don't understand your meaning.
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Ha! I think we pretty much agree, Don . We're maybe sort of tilting at windmills now!
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This is exactly why I also contend that, yes, there is one telos, one good, The Good, for everyone.
I'm all with you, Don, until you capitalize "The Good". In my brain, that starts turning it into something kind of "transcendent". An ideal.
The goal? Yes! The "guide"? Yes! The "good"? Yes! The "Good"? ...ouch
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Epicurus seemed to be treating this question carefully, which even Torquatus seems to admit when he said that Epicurus denied the necessity to construct a logical argument that pleasure is good
Yes!
If you are going to ask the question "What is the greatest good?" The answer is "pleasure."
But you also have to consider "Should you be asking that question?"Yes!
We have the word guide which is clear. What is added by calling it "good" or calling pain "evil"?
Yes!
I'm so glad to see this shared out! I couldn't agree more - the "other" philosophers were setting the terms of the discourse. Its like a silly Mad Libs game where Epicurus is kind of forced into filling in the blank, and the only possible Epicurean word that could be suggested is "pleasure", but ...NO! This is a child's game! The "good/greatest good" is just an abstract idea, not a living reality! You're chasing after a ghost!
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Happy Valentine's Day everyone!
Happy Valentine's Day to all! May you be blessed with love relationships that make your life deeper and more satisfying.
Since pleasure is our guide, we can know the right path to take by paying attention.
Well, perhaps, but its a tough thing to "know"! I think humans have a difficult time of romance and long term [committed/contractual] relationships. Many many failures in this area! Playing a game of cards or tennis may be rewarding and/or frustrating, but it is soon over and a new one can be started at any time! With romance and finding "mates" and marriage, one must make longer term choices - eventually most people make a choice to intend to stick someone for the rest of their lives. Now no matter how much I love Beethoven's 7th Symphony, I would probably tire of it if I listened to it several times every single day for the rest of my life. That's a stretch of an analogy, but not without some merit. Humans are generally inclined to monogamy, but it is certainly not always a piece of cake. Are there any Epicurean quotes on long term relationship pleasure/happiness?
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HBD SimonC!
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I didn't take the time to research him other than in the most cursory way
What?!? At 2:30 AM you should be getting out all your research tools and begin the analyzing!
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Cassius this is a great topic and worthy of investigation and discussion. The particular article you referenced, and its author, are not however, a very good sources of information. The article is littered with many bits of accurate information and truths, but also... lots of unsupported assertions, interesting anecdotal evidence, conflations, stretched analogies, etc. Debunking all those would take gobs of time. However, the article does stir up thought and offers interesting insights. I've occasionally had trouble sleeping through a "full night" and have read some about this stuff over the years, including about the 2 segment night sleep idea and historical sleep pattern changes that Don's article refers to. Also about people / groups / cultures that employ daytime napping, and there is little doubt in my mind that sleeping 8 hours straight per night (or 7-9 as Guzey usually refers to) is not set in stone. I found that once I stopped worrying about it on those occasions when I woke up in the middle of the night or had other "variations", I really didn't have any further troubles. Sleep varies over time, within one's personal experience, and between different people. That's OK. Figure out what works for you.
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I should add to that last post, to clarify one thing - when I could say that to my mother, I felt GOOD. I didn't just feel like "virtuous" or something. I had a release of a lot of internal turmoil and was at peace and have been since then about it. That was a true pleasure there, for me.
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Another thing I've found resulting from developing compassion is a more fair assessment of others' intentions. You know how we might go too late through a traffic light and say to ourselves "Damn! That was a red light I just went through!" Whereas when we are sitting at a red light and someone flies through the other way we say "Damn that guy is a f***g jerk!" There is a bit of tendency to assume bad intentions for others, and to think our intentions are good. Well, at least for me. Compassion has helped me more often give people the benefit of the doubt or at least be more open to them. I sort of gained a perspective like "we're all in this together". During childhood I (short story) had some amount of trauma. Only many years later I became capable of telling my mother that I loved her. It wasn't because she or history or anything else was changed. It was me who changed. I was only able to do this because of developing compassion. My heart just got a little "bigger" or whatever. Sorry, that's kind of the Grinch story there I totally bumped into that corny reference apologies lol
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I tend to avoid the word "compassion" altogether. It's etymology is sticky. The word is rooted in ecclesiastical Latin, and specifically alludes to the "co-suffering" of the Christ with the rest of humanity.
Agree, that's part of the history/origination of the word. But that's very old history. It doesn't mean that in today's usage. Words change in meaning over time and there is no other word that can replace it today and have the same meaning. Pity and empathy and sympathy just don't fill the bill (and most folks don't know the history of all this anyway).since "compassion" (or "co-suffering") necessarily includes the idea of "suffering", I think the word is antithetical to the Epicurean goal. A wise person would not contribute to their own suffering by accepting the same punishment as someone else; rather, a wise person would direct their efforts toward trying to remedy the situation
I can totally understand your perspective Nate, as this seems counter-intuitive. But I have lived through this and can honestly attest to the fact that cultivating compassion can be a very positive thing. This is an example of accepting some pain (the extent to which we can take on the pain of someone else, limited) to gain at least 2 greater pleasures 1) a very powerful pleasure of helping someone, and 2) more broadly the pleasure of deep connection with people. This is very meaningful work. Enjoying the good fortune of a friend for instance, is a great thing, but if you help a friend out when they are truly suffering, the connection is much deeper and more powerful. Same with non-friends (in fact sometimes friends are made this way!)
That said, compassion CAN be problematic - it depends on the details. One can become overwhelmed by compassion (we've all heard of this among health care workers during this pandemic, as just one example). Also some persons are so sensitive (or even have outright medical/psychological issues) that most any effort at compassion could be debilitating or even dangerous!
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I suspect that what is going on here is that there are significant differences between "pity" and "compassion" even though we tend to use them interchangeably
You're right, Cassius. Don has given a link to the etymology of pity directly above. For compassion, see this
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I should share that I don't want to suggest compassion is all "bad" by any means. Cultivating compassion can produce very positive results. I have spent some time doing this and can attest to the value of it. I've worked with Amnesty International and Tzu Chi for instance, both of which help end the suffering of people from human rights abuses and natural disasters, etc. It is a wonderful feeling to do compassionate work, a powerful connection with one's fellow human beings. When you help someone that is hurting, it is a deep, heartfelt pleasure! There was a time earlier in my life when I didn't have much compassion at all. For anyone, really. That to me now seems cold and "Stoic".
