This is interesting:
Restructuring of forum:
The subform category previously labeled "Epicurean Lifestyle and Practical Applications" -- has now been absorbed into "Ethics - How to Live as an Epicurean". All of the sub-folders are still there and can be found toward the second half of the Ethics section. (This was as per Cassius' discretion).
Hi Everyone, coming up this next Monday is our First Monday Epicurean Meet-and-greet & Discussion Via Zoom. The topic of discussion this month: "Emotions in Epicurean Philosophy".
Agenda:
This meeting is open to Level 02 members and up (and also Level 01 by approval of the moderator team). You can find out how to attend over in this other post. Hope to see you there! 
After the restructuring, if each discussion thread is linked on the top of its respective Wiki page then that could be a way to access the discussion.
Otherwise I foresee that it will end up being difficult to locate any specific PD or VS, because they will all be out of order.
I stumbled on this by chance, and not sure how safe/reliable this whole thing is but for anyone interested in work-exchange vacations, and looks like you could learn skills:
Here is a list for Europe:
Volunteering in Europe - Workaway
(Couldn't get USA info to come up)
I was trying to find some of the original works of Epicurus when I came across this site. I did not know there were modern Epicureans.
ceiltechbladhm Welcome to the forum! Can you let us know if you have studied much about Epicurus before joining the forum, or if you are newly encountering the teachings? Any previous background in other philosophy studies? Is there a particular aspect of Epicurean philosophy that draws your interest or apsect that you are curious to learn more about?
Guidance for locating the proper place for posting:
You can add to an existing discussion thread, or you can create a new thread with your question or topic clearly stated as the subject line. Please be sure to read through our list on the quality of posting that we are in need of here on the forum.
Level One members: your permissions are set to allow posting only into your Welcome thread, so you can post your questions there.
Other members - if you are unsure of where to post, then please post into your welcome thread or message an admin to ask.
Here is an overview with short-cuts to our main forums:
Physics - use either:
--one of the other specific sub-forums under Physics
Canonics- use either:
--one of the other specific sub-forums under Canonics
Ethics (theory) - use either:
--one of the other specific sub-forums under Ethics
Ethics Practical Applications (relevant for modern times) use either:
--the Practical Applications General Discussion
--one of the other specific sub-forums under Practical Applications
Ancient texts: Ancient texts - locate the specific text you would like to discuss (message the admin if you can't find what you are looking for)
Modern texts, articles, & videos - locate the specific text, etc you would like to discuss, or add new articles
Comparisons with other philosophies
Notable Epicureans, including Epicurus, Metrodorus, etc.
History, places, customs relevant to Epicureans or the time of Epicurus
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This list may be updated or improved in the future...please let us know if you have any questions or suggestions for improvements.
Adrastus Welcome back!
Ulfilas Welcome to the forum!
Noah Calderon Welcome to the forum!
Here is a good intro video you might like, by Cassius. This is an older, yet very good overview (and one that first got me interested in joining the forum):
For a newer overview (which has a link that you may or many not have already seen on the homepage):
Could we say that prolepsis is an inborn ability that is required for reasoning - prolepsis is the ability to have pattern recognition. Because of prolepsis, the monkeys (in post 2 video above) know the difference between cucumbers and grapes. Then what happens next...they must be applying some level of reasoning - they remember that in the past they observed a repeated pattern of sharing out the same thing and they came to expect that to happen...but when it didn't happen it felt "wrong" to them.
If they had always each received something different from their first earliest experience, then perhaps they would have been conditioned to accept the difference.
So perhaps the experiment is flawed.
If the work I put into attaining something pleasurable causes an more pain than the resulting pleasure, it’s not something I want to be pursuing anyway.
Now...what happens if it is a tie? ...that it results in equal levels of pleasure and pain. It seems that the default answer is to not do it...but what if you make a conscious choice to do it anyway, because of various reasons (and what would those reasons be?).
I would argue that “what is pleasurable” and “human needs” are one and the same.
Yes!
personally I find it most prudent to focus my efforts first on needs (that is, necessary desires), since their absence tends to result in pain.
Once I have those secured, I am free to pursue unnecessary pleasures (what I assume you mean by “what is hedonicly pleasurable”)
And you could say that hedonic pleasures are sometimes done to remove boredom. And sometimes they are done as a kind of medicine (or distraction, or a coping mechanism) when certain needs go unmet - of course the Epicurist would make sure to do this in such a manner as to not create worse pains).
I am thinking about another way to ask the question: How much work should be put into pursuing what is hedonicly pleasurable and how much work should go into pursuing human needs. Is there a method of evaluating what level of work (effort) is too much or too little -- your trying too hard or you are not trying hard enough -- and this may be an aspect of temperament in that some people may tend to "try too hard" and others may tend to "not try hard enough".
I've seen something on Reddit, written about "chasing after pleasure" as being a bad thing, and that Epicureans should just "relax" (code word for do less)...and my concern is that human needs will then go unmet...which will then result in a lesser quality of life (and less joy).
I was interested in Taoism for some time before my discovery of Epicurean philosophy, and this reminds me of a common Taoist adage about “getting out of one’s own way”.
I think that with Epicurean philosophy it uses reasoning - mental thinking and evaluation - based on fundamental ideas which remove "ego" aspects (pursuit of riches, fame, or power, or status (of somehow being better than everyone else)...and instead thinking what does the human-animal need. So there are parallels but also differences (when comparing) such that we are going to maximalize indulence of "what an animal needs" (and I have ideas about this that I haven't yet talked much about, but perhaps I should soon, since the question of this thread may actually be a "compensation" for a lack of human need fulfilment (but will get into that in another thread).
Something else that springs to mind is that ultimately this question comes down to hedonic calculus. If the “effort” you’re putting into the pursuit of pleasure is leading to more pain than pleasure, then one “should not” put that amount or type of effort into that particular venture.
I think that if you do a lot of "calculating" then there will be times that for a particular activity, the amount of pleasure produced breaks even with the amount of effort required...therefore you could reason with yourself that you might as well not do the activity.
Here is a practical example: There is a specific type of class that is being offered (it could be a dance class, a yoga class, or an art class, etc.) and you feel fairly certain that you will enjoy the experience and potentially meet new friends. However, the city that it is in will take an hour drive time (each way, so a total of 2 hours drive time). So even though the drive won't be particularly painful (just driving and maybe listening to an audiobook) ...the effort requires too much time. There actually isn't anything physically painful about the idea "it takes too much time"...it is just a mental judgment that it doesn't seem worth the effort.
By struggling in an effortful way, one is adding an unnecessary level of pain. Sure, we choose pain sometimes for greater pleasure. My go to example is always exercise
Is effort always painful? (I don't think so myself).
Vatican Saying 41 hints at putting effort into things:
"We must laugh and philosophize at the same time, and do our household duties, and employ our other faculties, and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy."
Question to add to the FAQ section: What amount of effort should be put into pursuing pleasure? ...Is there such a thing as not enough effort or too much effort when pursuing pleasure? Also, you could ask the flip side of the question, What amount of effort should be put into the removal of pain? Is there such a thing as not enough effort or too much effort when working to remove pain?
I have a question to suggest for the FAQ section:
How much effort should I be putting into pursuing pleasure? ...Is there such a thing as not enough effort or too much effort when pursuing pleasure?
Hi Everyone, You may notice that there are a few changes in the forum structure...and also the drop-down menus.
Most notable is that "General Discussion" has been renamed to "Uncategorized Discussion (General)". This means that only posts on topics which do not already have existing categories should go into the "Uncategorized Discussion".
Here is the new description:
This discussion sub-forum covers anything which doesn't fit within our existing Epicurean philosophy sub-forum categories. Please double-check if your post topic falls into an existing category. For help finding the correct category visit our short-cuts page. Or you can click here to return to the full forum list. Newer members: if you are unsure of where to post, you can ask where to post in your welcome thread (or send a private message to a moderator or admin). (P.S. We are currently working to file earlier general posts into their correct locations).
I'll be doing a bit more work soon on the "short-cuts" page, and that will help everyone with locating where exactly to post.
fyi - there is a lot of old but good stuff that had previously been posted under "General Discussion" (now labeled "Uncategorized Discussion") that will need to be moved over to the correct categories, and it will take a while to do so. And oddly enough, over the last several years we have basically ended up with two forums: the "general discussion" forum and the categorized sub-forums). There are many threads which duplicate the same discussion topics and questions (2 or more times!) that were posted in "general discussion" even though there are existing categories of sub-forums.
Thank you everyone for your understanding and help in posting content in relevant locations.
And if you have any questions, please ask! Thanks!
