Posts by Kalosyni

This seems like something modern day Epicureans would enjoy: "Friendsgiving"... looked it up on Wikipedia:

Quote

Friendsgiving is a Thanksgiving-themed feast meal typically eaten prior to or instead of a family Thanksgiving dinner in the United States. Gathering are typically a group of close friends, often millennials, although participation has broadened.

The meal began as an additional holiday or as an alternative to the traditional family Thanksgiving gathering for people who could not or did not want to go home for the holiday. For some celebrants, Friendsgiving has evolved from a pre-Thanksgiving gathering to replace traditional Thanksgiving entirely. Most celebrate it as a separate event during the Thanksgiving season.

Read more on Wikipedia

Here are some thoughts on anger:

---Get clear about who or what you are angry at:

A person? What exactly did they do? -- describe as objectively as possible as if a video camera had recorded it.

A situation or event that occurred? -- this could involve multiple people, yourself, plus unforseen circumstances, describe as objectively as possible as if a video camera had recorded it.

An idealogy or group of people? -- perhaps something political or religious that feels morally wrong and beyond control -- get clear about what you believe and value, as well as what is and isn't in your control.

Yourself? -- this could be a particular standard of competence that you thought you "should" be able to maintain -- Shift to seeing that we are all human and make mistakes, and then see the situation as a learning experience by taking note of what you would do differently next time.

---Get clear about your feelings of anger what (level of intensity and where in your body you feel it) and if you are also feeling frustrated or disappointed.

Anger is motivating but if you are too angry (out of control) or not clear about what the problem is then it isn't very useful.

---Understand the root causes of anger:

1) you think that something should or ought to be different than it is -- because it is unfair, immoral, or "wrong"/"incorrect" -- and you are judging a situation according to your internal principals (which may be different than the other party involved).

2) the situation seems very unpleasant or unbearable.

3) there is a problem that seems difficult to change and you feel a lack of power to implement changes or it feels like it is out of your realm of control.

---Shift the anger into solving a problem:

Get clear about what the problem is and what you would want instead. Get specific about what you would want, but also come up with several options for solving the problem.

Get clear about what the other side feels and wants -- sometimes they want the same end result but just have a different strategy for getting there. Find a solution that both sides can feel good about (there are a lot of modern resources on conflict mediation).

If you were harmed, decide if you want to ask for acknowledgement or restorative justice. (Remember that vengeful punishment will most likely result in perpetuating a cycle of violence, which will bring more harm than good. And trying to "teach" someone will only result in that person digging in their heals furth to defend their position).

Happy Birthday @Taverne !

In this video he emphasizes mental pleasures, but we have in both Diogenes Laertius and Cicero's Torquatus section that it is both physical and mental. (and there are other sources).

I give this video: ...because it has a number of incorrect concepts...and it seems to be saying that the goal is to avoid distress.

Quote from Matteng

1. Desires for happines ( eudaimonia )
2. Desires for Life

3. Desires for body/health

I am thinking that there is a difference between "needs" and "desires". A human needs healthy and nutritious food but they may not desire to eat greens or vegetables. "Needs" are what humans evolved with as animals - it would be an innate feeling that something is "off" when something goes unfulfilled. Also, there may be some people who don't desire happiness (because they think they don't deserve it, they have given up on it, or they think that self-sacrifice is more important.)

I am thinking that a wheel could work rather than a pyramid. Here are some ideas, will organize this better tomorrow:

Survival needs

Safety/security needs

Physiological needs - food, water, shelter, movement, etc.

Competence/self-assurance

Social group connection and recognition

Flow in work and living environment

Mate and/or family/group

...

This is interesting (from that link):

Quote

Problems With the Pyramid

One interesting fact to note is that Maslow himself never presented his theory as the famous pyramid with which we are all familiar. He did not view these needs as levels or stages you reach before moving on to the next. Maslow instead believed that people move within the hierarchy and that we are often driven by multiple needs simultaneously.

I need to add that if one picks out certain quotes or excerpts from texts of Epicurus then that will result in a particular emphasis on implementing moderation/minimalism in a kind of "black/white--either/or" manner, when in actuality there is a longer process involved which involves learning how to use prudence as a tool which leads to a pleasant and pleasurable life.

And it is important to take in a big picture view, rather than only quick snippets. The quick snippets may work as a starting point, but the next step is understanding the big picture view, which leads to developing practical applications in the modern world that we live in.

What is good about the play and the dialog is that it presents many of the basic ethics of Epicurus, which are taken from the Letter to Menoeceus and the Principal Doctrines.

Yet, there are several ways to "enter" the study of the philosophy, and each way with have differing results:

1) study the ethics only - this is a quick way to try to study, and yet it may end up requiring a kind of "faith" (similar to religion) because the underpinnings of the philosophy may not be fully studied and then the reasons for "why" are not fully understood. This may also lead to "short-cut" ideas like "moderation", "minimalism" and "bread-and-water Epicureanism".

2) study the "way things are" and the ethics at the same time - Epicurus presented a worldview based on "philosophical materialism" and emphasized the utmost importance of understanding the "seeds" and causes of things. We can see this in Lucretius' De Rerum Natura. When we apply the method of studying the causes of things to our everyday lives, then our ethics is more fully informed.

Life does not unfold with a "black/white" or "either/or" set of choices -- we need to test things out, and see what feels good (pleasant/pleasurable) and what feels bad (painful/stressful). From the outside to others it may appear that we practice "moderation", but on the inside we are continually sensitive to what works best based on the unique unfolding of circumstances -- such that what many may think is pleasurable actually is no longer pleasant to us, and we discover that it has no place (and no necessity) for us -- and we aren't giving anything up at all, but instead we are gaining pleasure by abstaining.

Like-wise for pursuing pleasure and "going for it" - we must each evaluate the situation based on our own resources and on our unique physiological needs, again with a kind of "trial-and-error" (and when we are certain that the risks aren't going to bring a terrible outcome).

Implementing the philosophy of Epicurus takes time and effort -- there is a learning curve to making good choices in life and moving toward a pleasant/pleasurable/joyous life.

Regarding the article Pacatus posted above, and the "three brains" (reptilian, mammalian, and primate) -- the "three brains" is no longer the considered the best model for the human brain.

The new model is called the "adaptive brain" and you can read about it here.

We've talked about this in other threads, and I remember posting elsewhere (a while back) on a revised "heirarchy of needs" and here is the likely source...

...excerpt:

Quote

The Updated Hierarchy of Needs

So what replaces self-actualization at the top of this revised hierarchy?

• Parenting takes the top spot, followed by
• Mate retention
• Mate acquisition
• Status/esteem
• Affiliation
• Self-protection
• Immediate physiological needs make up the very base of the pyramid.

According to the researchers, reproduction is the most fundamental biological imperative. For that reason, they placed parenting at the top of their hierarchy.⁵

The proposed revisions to Maslow's original hierarchy did not come without controversy, however. The journal issue containing the revised hierarchy also included four different commentary pieces that offered perspectives on the original and revised versions of the hierarchy.⁵

While many agreed with the basic premise of the revised version, particularly the evolutionary basis for the revisions, many took issue with removing self-actualization as a key motivating need.

Source:

Is Maslow's Famous Hierarchy of Needs Still Relevant Today?

The hierarchy of needs is widely accepted despite little supporting evidence. Is Maslow's hierarchy of needs still relevant today, or is it time for an update?

www.verywellmind.com

***

There are questions that come up as to how useful a heirarchy of needs is...

I ask this: Can we create an "Epicurean heirarchy of needs" ?

These needs would be biological/mental needs that are part of nature. Within these categories would be various options for fullfillment that encompass all temperaments (and we would be able to point to the "seeds" or causes of those needs). Each category would have a kind of "menu" of things to choose from - for example instead of a lifemate a particular person could instead choose to be part of a community club with close friendships, or good friends with workmates, or friends with housemates (who split the cost of rent). There are of course differences and then compensation from other categories may be needed.

(More thoughts on this to come).

Thank you Patrikios for mentioning this in last night's meeting, and there are a lot Epicurean concepts packed into it. After having spent more time with studying, now I can recognize so much more...and will say more soon.

Great to see everyone who showed up last night! We had a great turn out - a total of 12! We all got a chance to go around the "table" and say a little about what we were up to and what kinds of Epicurean philosophical ideas were on our minds.

In the future we may want to consider planning to go for an hour-and-a-half (anyone who needs to leave earlier could still do so). If I remember correctly, in the past we may have done more discussion on topics brought up during check-in (after the check-in was finished).

Also, if anyone has further thoughts and ideas on how to organize the meeting flow, please let us know.

Happy Twentieth!

Here is a paraphrasing regarding gratitude, taken from Vatican Saying 17 and section 133 from the Letter to Menoeceus: Do not stumble around as if you are of many minds, but instead enter the harbor of gratitude because you are now sure of the good things that bring happiness.

...and Happy Thanksgiving to all!

The word "happiness" needs to be defined...because it is both the transitory feeling that arises when human needs are met/fulfilled, and also the feeling of being okay with (or satisfied with) how one's life is unfolding.

We need to feel that there are more moments of joy than vexation, and we need to feel like our life course is sailing along in a satisfactory way.

The quest and desire for "meaning" is brought about by feeling vexation and dissatisfaction with one's life. There is a feeling that something is missing, but what it is...is a mystery... because civilization (and the modern world) has made it difficult to get certain basic human needs met. And then these very basic needs are ignored and made out to be unimportant. Instead there is "God" or "helping others through volunteer work".

The mystery needs to be uncovered, and we can begin to see an indication in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

In the modern world everyone has a unique take on what is felt to be individually "meaningful" (or important). But something must be tied into a bigger picture of the human life cycle ...either with family or with chosen friends. And then, seeing what came before, what is occuring now, and what will continue on in the future (the next generation) is a kind of transcendence -- seeing the cycle of life and feeling a part of that cycle of life. I would say that this would be an "Epicurean meaning of life" -- both seeing "the way things are", and "teaching the way things are".

Yes, there is a certain point at which you are dead, and the neurons stop firing.

Regarding the word "death" - first of all we see death in movies but often times it isn't depicted realistically --sometimes the person either dies peacefully or suddenly or the pain is minimized.

Also, some people may cognize "death" as a verb and a process - for example "he had a painful death".

And it is important to think about how Epicurus was talking about the state of being dead - so to rephrase it: "once we are dead, that state of being is nothing to us,..."

And here is something to consider: I think there could be a parallel between the experience of birth compared to the experience of death. Often when a person dies they have knowledge and sentient awareness which is different than when a baby is born, and yet there is a process that must occur which takes time and is passage into death.

Another article, here is an excerpt:

Quote

Although death has historically been medically defined as the moment when the heart irreversibly stops beating, recent studies have suggested brain activity in many animals and humans can continue for seconds to hours. In 2013, for instance, University of Michigan neurologist Jimo Borjigin and team found that rats’ brains showed signs of consciousness up to 30 seconds after their hearts had stopped beating. “We have this binary concept of life and death that is ancient and outdated,” Parnia says.

https://www.science.org/content/article/burst-brain-activity-during-dying-could-explain-life-passing-your-eyes

My belief, and after reading the article -- if you've lived a wise and pleasant life, there isn't anything to fear about the 30 seconds (or however long it takes) for consciousness to fully dissipate.

Here is an interesting article, and there may be others with more science details:

After death, you’re aware that you’ve died, say scientists

In recent decades, scientists have been studying near-death experiences (NDEs) to try to gain insights into how death overcomes the brain.

bigthink.com

Hello forum members!

Coming up next week is our monthly Twentieth Gathering!

Agenda: Welcome and greetings, commemoration short reading for Epicurus and Metrodorus, short presentation on this month's highlighted famous Epicureans, discussion of popular forum threads and Epicurean philosophy, as well as time to bring up the theme of gratitude.

Previous attendees: A link will be sent out by private message prior to the meeting. Looking forward to seeing you again!

"Members (03)" -- Let us know if you haven't attended before, and your name will be added to the private message list. Hope you can join us!

"Introductory Members (01)" -- Participation in the Twentieth is generally limited to Level Three Members, but "Introductory Members" are eligible to attend upon request. Approval is limited to those who demonstrate a sound understanding of Epicurean philosophy through forum postings or participation in a "First Monday" meet and greet Zoom meeting. If you are not level 3 but you are interested in attending a 20th Zoom, please message Cassius or Kalosyni.

************

Twentieth Theme: "Gratitude" - this is a great time of year to think about and talk about gratitude!

Quote from Joshua

My phone battery died mid-call, sorry to have missed the end!

Oh no! We missed you.

Last night you said something really good about the nature of justice and also quoted Thomas Jefferson...wondering if you have written anything or can write on that? I think it is an important topic. (We do have this sub-forum).

There is a thread on the discussion of the translation of Principle Doctrine 2 over here:

Thread

Best Translaton Of PDO2 To Feature At EpicureanFriends?

The following post is one of a series so that we can get our collection of the main list of Principal Doctrines under the "Texts" section in better shape. Although this thread will include a "poll" in the next post, what we are really looking for is the "best" combination of faithfulness to the original combined with clarity in modern English. I will get with a collection of the Level 3 participants here to work on editing the final list, but the full discussion should be open to everyone to…

Cassius

July 12, 2023 at 12:02 PM