Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Julia

Only when I ask "Name the satisfaction/relief this will bring" am I forced to actually think about the consequences, and because they're positively framed, it also motivates me to follow through:

This is going beyond the scope of what we have available from the extant texts of Epicurus.

You might look onto "Compassionate Communication" (NVC) by Marshall Rosenberg:

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In Nonviolent Communication (NVC), Marshall Rosenberg posits that all human actions stem from the attempt to meet needs, and that there are nine major categories of basic human needs, often called "universal human needs": sustenance, safety, love, understanding/empathy, creativity, recreation, sense of belonging, autonomy, and meaning.

Here's a more detailed breakdown of these needs:

• Sustenance:

  This encompasses the basic needs for survival, including food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities.

  
  

• Safety:

  This includes protection from harm, both physical and emotional, as well as security and stability.

  
  

• Love:

  This refers to the need for connection, belonging, and affection, not just romantic love, but also friendship, family, and community.

  
  

• Understanding/Empathy:

  This is the need to be heard, understood, and validated, both by ourselves and by others.

  
  

• Creativity:

  This encompasses the need for self-expression, innovation, and the ability to create and contribute.

  
  

• Recreation:

  This includes the need for rest, relaxation, play, and enjoyment.

  
  

• Sense of Belonging:

  This is the need to feel connected to others and to be part of a community or group.

  
  

• Autonomy:

  This refers to the need for independence, self-determination, and the freedom to make choices.

  
  

• Meaning:

  This encompasses the need for purpose, significance, and a sense of contribution to something larger than oneself.

  
  

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For the last category "meaning", I would reframe it as "making sense of life/my life" (to avoid going into a religious framing of the concept of purpose).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolen…20and%20meaning.

The communication aspect of NVC also includes internal habits of thinking.

Quote from Julia

I lie to myself, and pretend that eating a box of ice cream was my Choice, even though it's 9am, I'm not hungry, and know full well I'll only regret it before I'm even half done.

In this example, you eating the ice cream is "doing" and so by default that is a "choice" that you made. Instead of labeling it "lying", try out the label of "justifying" (which is less harsh). There is a reason behind the action - possibly the desire for "entertainment" (novelty) or a desire to remove anxiety (through distraction). Also consider that modern foods are created with a very strong "yummy" factor, so if you know you have "trigger" foods (foods which when you start eating you are unable to stop) then make sure that you do not buy them or bring them into to the house. Instead go out to a ice cream parlor and only buy a single scoop (once a month, or less, which makes it more special and more enjoyable). Substitute healthy foods for snacking (carrot sticks are great, etc).

Quote from Julia

To rephrase it all: "When there is no anticipated satisfaction nor an anticipated relief, which I could specifically name, I cannot possibly have completed the Choice or Avoidance operation in my mind yet."

Would you agree that this rephrased statement is correct?

(Of course, after having Chosen / decided to Avoid something, I also need to follow through; that's not what I am wondering about, though. I'm specifically looking at what happens beforehand.)

I'm feeling something subtle here...perhaps to name it as "an urge to control everything". And I think that this attitude can become a problem. There are a lot of things that happen just by chance, but we make do and go with the flow. But it is very good to focus on the important things when making choices, such as where to go to college, what to major in, whether to get into a relationship for the purpose of marriage or stay single, or whether or not to have children. But there are a lot of small things that often don't matter, in my opinion (such as whether or not, or when, to clean the bathroom mirror, and it depends on each individual as to what brings pleasure and pain).

So I don't think it is important to feel or notice whether or not you've "completed the choice and avoidance operation" (as you stated above), because many things we do are based on habits that are automatic. If we do feel some pain then we should look to see what were doing wrong and then work on making changes to our habits.

Just throwing this into the mix, from Cicero's Torquatus section:

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[62] XIX. But these doctrines may be stated in a certain manner so as not merely to disarm our criticism, but actually to secure our sanction. For this is the way in which Epicurus represents the wise man as continually happy; he keeps his passions within bounds; about death he is indifferent; he holds true views concerning the eternal gods apart from all dread; he has no hesitation in crossing the boundary of life, if that be the better course. Furnished with these advantages he is continually in a state of pleasure, and there is in truth no moment at which he does not experience more pleasures than pains. For he remembers the past with thankfulness, and the present is so much his own that he is aware of its importance and its agreeableness, nor is he in dependence on the future, but awaits it while enjoying the present; he is also very far removed from those defects of character which I quoted a little time ago, and when he compares the fool’s life with his own, he feels great pleasure. And pains, if any befall him, have never power enough to prevent the wise man from finding more reasons for joy than for vexation.

And highlighting this section:

"For he remembers the past with thankfulness, and the present is so much his own that he is aware of its importance and its agreeableness, nor is he in dependence on the future, but awaits it while enjoying the present;"

So this would be about a kind of satisfaction because of the agreeableness of the present moment. And it seems like it would be a kind of a feeling of flow, not striving over things, not worry or ruminating, because one's "house" (life) is set up properly and in order.

This link contains a PDF of the document:

https://lirias.kuleuven.be/retrieve/678705

I see from this article the difficulty in reading Philodemus because of many missing words as well as entire missing lines in texts, as seen in this paper.

megalopsychia = greatness of soul, or magnanimity.

Hello "Level 03 Members and Above"!, Our next 20th Zoom will soon be here:

Agenda:

• Welcome and Greetings
• Opening Reading - "Commemoration of Epicurus and Metrodorus, a Reading of the Names of the Epicurean Scholarchs, and an Ode to Venus (opening to Lucretius)" - presented by Kalosyni
• "Honoring our Monthly Notable Epicureans - Zeno of Sidon and Colotes of Lampsacus" - presented by Cassius
• Open discussion on Epicurean philosophy (plus discussion on podcast and popular forum threads)
• This is a great way to celebrate the Epicurean philosophy and keep in touch with fellow members who are dedicated to the on-going study of Epicurus.

If you are a Level 03 Member interested in attending and have not previously attended (or have not been receiving the monthly link sent out by private message) please let us know an we will add you to the private group. Link will be sent out the day before the meeting. Looking forward to seeing you there!

**************

Please note: the 20th meeting is open to "Level 03 and Above".

For all who are "Level 01 - Introductory Members", we have the "First Monday Zoom" meeting open to your attendance as a "meet-and-greet" and it also functions as an introductory meeting for any questions, to which we hope you will attend. Please message Cassius or Kalosyni, if you are interested.

I think Epicurus would approve of doing things to increase the pleasant experiences of life, which would also mean transforming those things which are getting in the way of the fullness of the enjoyment of life.

I found this very good video, which explains the causes of reactivity (and irritability) and how to begin to make some changes.

I think the next step which should follow this video, would be working on increasing problem solving skills in difficult situations (and negotiation skills too).

(I have watched two other videos by this same Youtube channel and they seem very helpful).

All of these questions to consider: What is "virtue" according to this or that philosopher (ancient or modern)? What is "virtue" according to the current zeitgeist? What do I think "virtue" is, and what does Epicurus say about "virtue"?

Also found this essay as food for thought on "Virtue and Ethics".

I want to start a discussion on the topic of virtue (aspects of which may have already been discussed in the past) but mainly because it seems that this topic hasn't has enough time in the limelight as what it deserves.

Principal Doctrine 5 - An Epicurean sees virtue as important for a happy and pleasurable life because it is the means to a happy and pleasurable life - virtue is itself not the end goal but is the way that leads to a pleasurable life.

So up for discussion is anything from Epicurean philosophy (including from Philodemus) that touches on development of virtue for the sake of a happy and pleasurable life.

I will start off with thinking about how we understand the word "virtue" in our current times.

Here is the opening from Wikipedia:

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A virtue (Latin: virtus) is a trait of excellence, including traits that may be moral, social, or intellectual. The cultivation and refinement of virtue is held to be the "good of humanity" and thus is valued as an end purpose of life or a foundational principle of being. In human practical ethics, a virtue is a disposition to choose actions that succeed in showing high moral standards: doing what is said to be right and avoiding what is wrong in a given field of endeavour, even when doing so may be unnecessary from a utilitarian perspective. When someone takes pleasure in doing what is right, even when it is difficult or initially unpleasant, they can establish virtue as a habit. Such a person is said to be virtuous through having cultivated such a disposition. The opposite of virtue is vice.

(Wikipedia has more on this here).

Another article on savoring, but this one includes savoring relationship moments with friends and family: (and somewhat related to Vatican Sayings 23 & 34):

Excerpt:

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Think of a time when someone did something really nice for you, or you did something really nice for them. Just bringing up that memory probably makes you feel good — about that person, the nice thing that happened and maybe about some other stuff too.

Jessica Borelli, a professor of psychological science at University of California, Irvine, has developed a technique that focuses on these kinds of memories to help people feel more secure in their relationships. Relational savoring encourages clients to take a deep dive into these meaningful moments.

Article: How the science of savoring can help you nurture your relationships

Touching on the topic of the nature of death which came up during the podcast recording...here is an interesting article... a modern understanding of "What Really Happens When You Die":

Excerpt:

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When you die, you have to have your death certified by a doctor and a death certificate or a cremation certificate issued. If we have had contact with a patient in the previous two weeks and know the cause of death - if someone has been terminally ill, say - we can sign the death certificate immediately. If we haven't seen the patient in the two weeks before their death, or if they have died after being discharged from hospital, then we must report it to the coroner, who may request a postmortem. The coroner may also request a postmortem if drugs or alcohol are suspected, or if there's any suggestion of a violent death. It's my job to say if somebody is dead, not how they died.

What I'm essentially looking for is brainstem activity. The brainstem is the part of the brain where the body's vital functions are controlled - the breathing, the heart, the brain itself; it is the computer room of the body. If that bit of the brain is dead, then the person is essentially dead. You can still have reflex actions, so you may twitch after death.

To certify that someone is dead, you listen to the heart for one minute and feel for a pulse for one minute. You examine for signs of breathing, you look at the pupils to check there is no response to a shining light. If you're not certain, you can rub on the breastbone, which is a very painful procedure: if they are not dead, they'll quickly jump up and say, "That hurt!"

Nowadays there are machine tests for brainstem death that involve connecting up the brain and looking at the activity. Those tests would be done before organ donation.

Read the full article here

Just a reminder to Martin and TauPhi that Daylight savings time kicks in on March 9th -- the USA goes one hour forward.

UnPaid_Landlord Happy Birthday!

EyalA Welcome to the forum!

I came across these two articles which talk about 8 aspects of coping, and there are some elements which overlap with Epicurean ideas: pleasures and savoring, memory of pleasant experiences & past pleasures, and self-suffiency (goal setting and accomplishment).

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/04/nx-s1-5316220/blah-buoyant-skills-improve-mood-optimism-stress-reduction

https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2024/09/27/nx-s1-5082364/anxiety-stress-positive-coping-class-skills

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Here’s a quick summary of the skills taught in the course:

1. Positive events

We tend to fixate on the negative. So, try this: Switch your focus to something good today. It could be a beautiful sky, a delicious bite of fresh fruit, or a call from a friend.

Moskowitz is a coffee lover, so she suggests taking time to really enjoy that morning ritual, noticing the aroma and the feel of the warm mug.

When you pay attention to small pleasures, you may feel a shift to a sense of calm or comfort.

This is a simple concept, but it goes against our natural instincts. Humans evolved to pay attention to threats and problems. “That’s adaptive,” Moskowitz says. But don’t miss out on the good.

2. Savoring

Now that you’ve noticed a beautiful sky or delicious scent, take time to savor it. The goal here is to make the moment last. Say you’ve got great photos from a vacation or celebration, each time you look at them, you can re-experience positive feelings.

“Think of it as getting another hit of positive emotion,” Moskowitz says. You can savor a moment by simply remembering it, or you can write it down or tell someone else about it. This can amplify the positive feelings and give you an emotional buffer when stress and anxiety rise.

3. Gratitude

This one can feel like a platitude. I get it! But before you brush it aside, there’s a lot of research on the benefits. For instance, a recent study among women points to a potential longevity boost from feelings of gratefulness.

So, you can ask yourself this: If I had a list of all the things I’m grateful for, would it be long? Think of all the people, events and experiences that bring you joy. At first you may only think of a few obvious ones, but with practice your list can grow longer, as you notice more small things that enrich your life, Moskowitz says.

4. Daily mindfulness

You’ve likely heard this one before: To feel calmer, tune in to your experience in the present moment, instead of getting caught up in your thoughts. But you won’t see the benefit unless you actually take the time to practice it. One way is to focus on your breath. It’s a shortcut to get rid of the clutter in your mind. To try it, find a quiet spot and take some slow breaths. As you inhale, let your belly expand. Make your exhales slow, about twice as long. Notice the way your breath feels in your belly as it rises and falls.

5. Positive reappraisal

When something unfortunate or unexpected happens, can you find a silver lining? It’s a familiar concept, but Moskowitz says it can pay off. One refrain she uses in her own life when something bad happens is “It could have been much worse.”

Try it next time you have an annoying experience — say, you take your car in for repairs, and it’s not ready on time. Instead of getting mad, could you use the time to take that walk you’ve been meaning to get in? Or treat yourself to some quiet time? It’s not possible to do this in every situation, but it’s a good way to gain perspective amid everyday challenges, like losing your keys or missing the bus.

6. Self-compassion

Are you your biggest critic? If your self-talk is negative, that's a good clue. Many of us “hold ourselves to a very high standard that we would never expect of anyone else,” Moskowitz says. So, now’s the time to take the compassion you’d show to a friend and turn it on yourself. There are easy ways to try this. Take the time to do things that make you feel good, for example, or take a lunch break when you're hungry instead of putting it off. You can even try giving yourself a gentle hug now and then.

7. Personal strengths

In the midst of challenges and struggles, we can forget what we’re good at. So, the course offers up a technique to recognize your strengths and take stock. Are you a good listener? Empathetic? Are you great at managing details? Knowing your strengths helps you stand strong amid challenges.

8. Attainable goals

If you know your strengths, it may make it easier to set goals that align with them. "The research on goal attainment shows that any progress toward a goal increases your positive emotion,” Moskowitz says. So, it’s worth pulling out a notebook and writing down some goals. “I find it extremely rewarding to cross something off my list,” says Moskowitz.

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I am just now seeing this thread and Cassius' post about the outline in above, posted April 2021(...Jefferson's outline was our topic at last night's Zoom).

I am also reflecting on the letter itself and the following quote:

"As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurean. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing every thing rational in moral philosophy which Greece & Rome have left us."

Especially the phrase "the genuine, not the imputed doctrines" --- and this would refer to "the actual" rather than anything that detractors would say.

Here is an article regarding Gassendi:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27744965

Quote from Cassius

Has the idea that everyone pursues pleasure whether they admit it or not resulted in progress toward possible solutions to the problems listed in the bullet points?

The problem with religion is when people insist or force others into it (such as back in history when rulers insisted on forcing an official religion that everyone had to adhere to). So the idea that there is only one "right" way, the idea that God dictates "right and wrong", and the idea that everything in the world exists to please God, and the idea that there are the religious leaders (or priests) who alone know what God wants and how to please God -- these ideas (and behaviors that come out of them) are the problem.

Quote from Don

One may say virtue is their ultimate motivating factor, but why? Keep asking why? And it is going to be that it gives them a sense of satisfaction that they're doing what's right. And what is a sense of satisfaction? It is pleasure. One can dress up their motivation and their rationalizations and their justifications. They move toward the supreme good which is pleasure.

People lie all the time to themselves to get through the day and through their life. People can convince themselves of almost anything!

I am not saying we MUST convince everyone we come in contact with that "Pleasure is the supreme good and why you do what you." We pick our battles. But the more I look at the world and how people act, I can see them trying to comfort themselves, to mask their insecurities, to belittle others to aggrandize their own self-image. They are in pain and are trying to move toward pleasure.

The problem here is that people need to look at the big picture and the longterm consequences of their actions. Both Epicureans (those who seek pleasant living) and those that put virtue (or religion) as the deciding factor --- both sides can develop mistaken ideas and then take actions based on those mistaken ideas which result in bad consequences.

There are two areas of influence that our choices affect:

1) Our own sphere - your own body, your own household, and anything that only affects yourself

2) Our surrounding sphere affecting other people - family and friends, neighbors, community members, and the country in which we live.

The religious people may end up believing that "the end justifies the means" and so they do things such as hurt people physically, or take away or destroy resources or property, or change laws to remove freedoms, the safety, or the security of others --- all in the name of "religion" and because "God has laws" (or that there are "correct" or "virtuous" ways that must be adhered to).

But after a time, when people are hurt or trampled on, eventually they will rise up, are able to resist --- maybe it takes several generations but it is innate in humans to seek justice and to crave freedom and well-being.

This is why we need to understand that justice is a compact that must be agreed upon not to harm or be harmed. Because humanity is caught in an endless loop --- and until we understand this, then it will repeat forever. Endless war, endless suffering of oppression.

Unfortunately religion (and it's leaders) often interfere with the compacts that are made in order to live in peace with others.

Quote from Titus

I would argue that even if they say they pursue the afterlife and are not seeking pleasure they are lying or not recognising their reality. It's as obvious as water is wet and the sunlight at noon is bright to me.

I agree with you, that the stories may misguide them but on the other hand the force of our innate pleasure-pain-mechanism is immensely powerful. No-one can escape this reality.

I must be still affected by my upbringing as a child, which was strict Christian fundamentalist, and they would end the church service by asking if anyone wanted to become "saved" and which was understood as "saved from hell"...so it was an appeal to the desire to remove the pain of uncertainty after death.

As I think about it, the most pleasure oriented religion now would be Neo-paganism (vastly different than Christianity).

We can see some form of ancient paganism in Lucretius, when he appeals to Venus at the start of his proem:

"Mother of Rome, delight of Gods and men,
Dear Venus that beneath the gliding stars
Makest to teem the many-voyaged main
And fruitful lands- for all of living things
Through thee alone are evermore conceived,
Through thee are risen to visit the great sun-
Before thee, Goddess, and thy coming on,
Flee stormy wind and massy cloud away,
For thee the daedal Earth bears scented flowers,
For thee waters of the unvexed deep
Smile, and the hollows of the serene sky
Glow with diffused radiance for thee!"

Source

Quote from Titus

trust in the world.

Unfortunately for many religious people they are united by their distrust in the world, and their hope for something other than the world ---> seeking to transcend the world rather than inhabit the world, and seeking for a heavenly afterlife.

And prayer is their "Harry Potter magic wand" (which may only work 50 percent of the time, depending on what they pray for). Here is an interesting article on prayer by Psychology Today.